[Rasczak]

I know many of you are planning to use your PCs as an initial/cheap way into the next generation optical disc market until the dust settles/prices fall. Many of us did that with DVD where DVD-ROM drives were not only cheap but easy to make multi-region. The situation may not be the same with HD DVD or BluRay.

I strongly urge anyone who is considering this to read this article!

The article is 5 pages long and worth reading in it's entirety. But to pick the meat from the bones:

What Equipment Do You Need?

The entire image process will have to be certified for the movie to be read:
- the reader, Blu-Ray or HD-DVD,
- the graphics card
- the display (CRT, LCD, plasma or even projector)

...as you can see then slightly more than the DVD-ROM drive and MPEG2 card you had when you adopted DVD. You'll not only need the optical drive but also a new graphics card that supports HDCP and a HDMI/DV-HDCP compliant display. Note though that content provides have the ability to demand all or none of the above on a disc by disc basis. Given the sensitivities of the companies though you can bet your bottom dollar that almost all will require it all.

Graphics Cards
Most ATI and NVIDIA cards since 2003 are HDCP compliant. However they are NOT HDCP ready. All 'compliance' means is that the design kits have been developed with the possibility to add a Silicon Image or Texas Instrument chip to have HDCP compatibility. So far none have been added.

The Display - What Happens If You Don't Have An HDMI Input?
If you don't have a HD Ready monitor then you'll need to use a connection other than HDMI or DVI (HDCP). How will this affect you image?

DVI (Not HDCP Compatible): Regarded as the "dream" interface to copy. The recommended approach is to display a reduced resolution image (dividing the resolution by 2 (height and width) with a slightly fuzzy image) and displaying a error message.

VGA: The most common input to connect a computer to a monitor does not contain any protection. Recommendation is to reduced the resolution to 960 x 540 pixels instead of 1920 x 1080. It would be poorer than the true HD, but slightly better than current DVDs. Some producers will probably choose the blacked out monitor approach though...

...all in all then if you plan to go the HD DVD route then it will almost certainly be cheaper for you to buy a standalone unit unless you're planning to build yourself a new PC anyway. If you're planning to go down the BluRay route (players priced circa $1000) then it's less clear. Regardless it's not as 'easy' to get into the new formats as it was DVD.

Yep, this has been known about for a while.

Everyone who wants to watch Blu-ray or HD-DVD movies on their PC needs a new graphics card and Windows Vista, as well as an HDCP compatible monitor.

[Albion]

That means I won't buy a HD-DVD Drive,or any HD-DVD titles.I certainly won't buy a new PC Monitor (I've just bought one) and my Graphics card suits me just fine thankyou.They sure want people to take up HD-DVD don't they.

I'll think I'll just wait around a while and see what happens.Its going to be interesting.

[Stephen Neal]

The Operating System, AIUI, will also need to be "authorised" to replay HD-DVD and BluRay media - not just the hardware, to avoid software implemented streaming of decrypted video (aka a digital "hole")

So not only a new monitor (unless you have an HDMI/DVI+HDCP TV), graphics card (unless you have a recent, rare HDCP compatible model), but also a new operating system... Oh and an HD-DVD or BluRay drive...

[Albion]

I think I,ll go and prospect for Gold in the local River instead.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by Albion

That means I won't buy a HD-DVD Drive,or any HD-DVD titles.I certainly won't buy a new PC Monitor (I've just bought one) and my Graphics card suits me just fine thankyou.They sure want people to take up HD-DVD don't they.

I'll think I'll just wait around a while and see what happens.Its going to be interesting.

It does seem that the studios REALLY want to lock down their content. They were (and are) trying to restrict domestic HD recording of broadcast TV using the "Broadcast Flag" in the US - to stop HD copies of stuff like Desperate Housewives etc. getting a wider audience than intended.

Eventually - worst case scenario - it could mean a much more difficult situation for those of us who build our own PCs, and small system builders, as well as those who want to use Open Source OSs...

[Albion]

Does anyone think there maybe a legal way (software solution)of eventually being able to play HD-DVD content through an existing standard system setup with Windows XP.The only thing I can think of is similar to what happened with DeCSS,which of course is anything but legal.

After having recently built a new PC for my son,it's going to be another couple of years at least before I consider re-building my own.

[Parmenion62]

Thanks for the warning I wont bother buying into HDDVD or Blueray - I am sure most consumers will have the same idea - the death of these formats for the PC?

I guess these formats may be coming out too soon - Vista isnt even out yet and the graphics cards you need are rare.

[1080 jawbreaker]

i read somewhere that HD has to be available via Component until 2010/11 (in Japan) so i'll just be installin a new drive and thats it and import and/or wait for patches to turn up.

[dan1979]

I don't understand the point of them implementing this, since when were dvd's pirated via video output? Surely it's the encryption of the disc contents that count if the aim is to stop people making copies.

[Evil Engineer]

Isn't the thinking that unless and until AACS is cracked the only way to made a high grade copy of an HD-DVD/BR disc will be to copy the video output?

If the encryption proves too hard to crack or if the pirates are foiled by updates/patches released by the studios they will most likely alter their angle of attack and go after the digital video outputs.

It's not so much the idea of HDCP that gets my goat. It's the fact that the PC industry has seen this coming for at least two years and STILL hasn't seen fit to add HDCP capabilities to their monitors and graphics cards.

[dan1979]

If we're talking timescales then it's going to be a long one before there's a market for pirate discs on the new formats, it will be expensive for a fair while and most peole are happy with crap quality if it means saving a few quid.

[Rasczak]

The Operating System, AIUI, will also need to be "authorised" to replay HD-DVD and BluRay media - not just the hardware, to avoid software implemented streaming of decrypted video (aka a digital "hole")

Is this still the case? I thought exactly the same until Toshiba demonstrated a HD DVD-Video capable laptop at CES 2006 running Windows Media Centre 2005. I am sort of assuming that this laptop is equipped with specific hardware to allow playback whilst protecting the content.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by Rasczak

Is this still the case? I thought exactly the same until Toshiba demonstrated a HD DVD-Video capable laptop at CES 2006 running Windows Media Centre 2005. I am sort of assuming that this laptop is equipped with specific hardware to allow playback whilst protecting the content.

1. Was it a demo or a real product?

2. Was it playing HD-DVD pre-recorded film releases, or just video files from an HD-DVD disc? The latter doesn't require the same level of security? (Kind of live DVD Video vs DVD ROM)

[Rasczak]

1. Was it a demo or a real product?

2. Was it playing HD-DVD pre-recorded film releases

It was definetly a real product - it was available for anyone to try and is due to go on sale next month. AFAIK it was also playing real HD DVDs - it was seen demoing a number of titles including Resident Evil. There are pictures/reports over on CD Freaks (see mid January news archives) if you're interested.

[Mr.D]

You guys are missing the point. Sure we'll need new graphics cards , new displays ( just took delivery of a panasonic 42PHD8 with hdmi for precisely this reason , my HS20 projector is already covered for HDCP...I think). New operating systme ( maybe maybe not) and the drives themselves. We've all known this for the past year.

Once the studios are happy with the copy protection you'll see disc release times shorten , it also paves the way for proper downloading of content , hidef tuner cards. Microsoft are determined to get a PC under your TV.

None of these issues are problematic unless you pirate material. I download the odd TV show myself ( cough Lost cough) but I'd much rather pay a fair price to watch what I want when I want downloaded for a fast server and with good guaranteed quality levels.

Its not that long ago that we had expensive dvd drives , region hacking swamps , poor quality dvd software players , slow machines that needed mpeg2 decoder cards to play back anything approaching a decent picture.

The content creators are entitled to protect their product. Once they are a bit more trusting of their consumer base everyone will reap the benefits.

I'll buy a standalone hd-dvd or blu-ray player until the PC side of things gets sorted the same way I bought a dvd player when they were 800quid for a decent one and you could only choose between 4 models from different manufacturers.

[Rasczak]

None of these issues are problematic unless you pirate material.

No, but it makes a massive difference to the cost of early adoption which is the point I was making in posting this.

The content creators are entitled to protect their product. Once they are a bit more trusting of their consumer base everyone will reap the benefits.

This is a different issue altogether. Whether AACS goes too far or not is a hotly debated topic!

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Rasczak

No, but it makes a massive difference to the cost of early adoption which is the point I was making in posting this.


This is a different issue altogether. Whether AACS goes too far or not is a hotly debated topic!

Early adopters always pay a penalty. I doubt it will stop me personally.
Still buying a standalone player now and flogging it on when you move to PC is one way of clawing a little bit back.

If it gets us more access to better quality material in the long term is there any major disadvantage.

[Rasczak]

Early adopters always pay a penalty. I doubt it will stop me personally.

It won't stop me either: but if you browse this forum many users are planning to buy a cheap HD DVD-ROM as a cheap way into high def discs. When in truth it will be cheaper for many to actually buy a dedicated standalone player. Quite the reverse of DVD!

[Albion]

Originally Posted by Rasczak

It won't stop me either: but if you browse this forum many users are planning to buy a cheap HD DVD-ROM as a cheap way into high def discs. When in truth it will be cheaper for many to actually buy a dedicated standalone player. Quite the reverse of DVD!

Well said.This was exactly my route into HD-DVD.I did the same with DVD.
All I did then was install a new DVD drive and way to go.Later I purchased a standalone when prices became resonable.

Now I need a new operating system,a new monitor,a new graphics card in fact a whole bloody new PC.It's also taken my interest out of buying a HD ready TV.

What more could you do to encourage DeAACS

[Mr.D]

And you will always get people who complain about a new product not being cheap enough regardless of the price point it launches at.

HD-DVD and BLU-Ray are no more expensive than dvd was when it launched . If anything the standalone players are starting off cheaper. Likewise dvd-rom drives and PC platforms capable of reliable mediocre playback was a considerably more expensive undertaking than people seem to remember.

We heard the same sort of griping about the prices and desirability of 16x9 TVs. "its not really worth it , they still have black bars , they make people look fat " ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.

So far all I've heard in this thread are complaints about the cost of the upgrade path and that HDCP will make it a bit more difficult to rip and burn to your heart's content. Tough!

If you resent paying more than 20quid for a decent dvd player let alone a hidef format and can't bring yourself to part with more than the cost of a no-name manky LCD from Woolworths then stick with dvd. No one is holding a gun to your head.

[Croker]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

And you will always get people who complain about a new product not being cheap enough regardless of the price point it launches at.

HD-DVD and BLU-Ray are no more expensive than dvd was when it launched . If anything the standalone players are starting off cheaper. Likewise dvd-rom drives and PC platforms capable of reliable mediocre playback was a considerably more expensive undertaking than people seem to remember.

We heard the same sort of griping about the prices and desirability of 16x9 TVs. "its not really worth it , they still have black bars , they make people look fat " ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.

So far all I've heard in this thread are complaints about the cost of the upgrade path and that HDCP will make it a bit more difficult to rip and burn to your heart's content. Tough!

If you resent paying more than 20quid for a decent dvd player let alone a hidef format and can't bring yourself to part with more than the cost of a no-name manky LCD from Woolworths then stick with dvd. No one is holding a gun to your head.

What rot! If you're going to upgrade to HDTV, it's false economy to buy "a no-name manky LCD", and if you want a reasonably decent DVD player that works well with a HDTV (or indeed if you wish to buy a standalone HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player), you'll be spending more than £20.

However, this kind of outlay is to be expected, if not exactly favoured - new hardware is always more expensive when it first launches. People don't resent this in the standalone route...we all want things to be cheaper, and we may grumble, but we don't resent it. Plus, you're buying just one box to go with your HDTV, and you're away, immediately into the world of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

However, for you to blithely sweep the HD-DVD/Blu-ray upgrade cost for PC under the carpet in the way that you have is absolutely ridiculous. I actively resent someone trying to force me to buy a new monitor, graphics card and OS solely to play a HD-DVD through the PC.

It is an entirely needless and inelegant solution. Your point that DVD-ROM drives/PC platforms capable of reliable playback were more expensive than people remember is noted, but is also far from the same as this proposed situation. Some people (and not as many as you seem to assert) may have needed more RAM or similar (as well as a DVD-ROM drive) to better deal with DVD playback, but be realistic - we didn't need to buy a new monitor, drive, graphics card and OS to get in on the DVD revolution. Most people are not even close to having HD compatible PCs at home - I'd have to buy all of those things to watch HD-DVDs on PC, and my PC is pretty up-to-date in comparison to those of most people!

Nor is this about wanting to "rip and burn" to my heart's content. I don't go down this road myself, but I do have a PC as part of my current AV set-up. Why should I have to pay out hundreds of pounds to get all these new items rather just be able to go out and buy a bloody standalone drive? No-one may be holding a gun to my head, but they're not exactly encouraging me to rush out and buy one, either!

It's simply massive over-kill in the vain hope that it'll put pirates off - and it won't. In the long-term, piracy will find a way, just as it always has. For example, PSP firmware keeps getting upgraded in an attempt to stave off piracy and homebrew apps, and yet it always gets successfully hacked. Once inroads are made into whatever system is used to protect next-gen discs, the companies will be back to square one.

Anyway, DVD took hold because it was relatively cheap (and soon, VERY cheap), easy to add to existing set-ups, and offered a great enhancement in quality. These next-gen formats so far offer high-expense (certainly in the PC route), difficult to add to current set-ups with ease, and not as marked a leap in visual detail (if early opinions are to be believed). I can't see the sales setting the world alight unless a serious rethink about the whole issue takes place.

[RockySpieler]

Toshiba have licensed HD-DVD technology to at least 2 Chinese OEM suppliers, its part of their strategy to achieve critical mass ahead of BR-DVD (Amoi being one - source CES announcement).

So we might yet see cheapie HD-DVD players at Asda and Tesco's with the same electrical designs as their Toshiba built cousins...............maybe not for £20 though!

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Croker

However, for you to blithely sweep the HD-DVD/Blu-ray upgrade cost for PC under the carpet in the way that you have is absolutely ridiculous. I actively resent someone trying to force me to buy a new monitor, graphics card and OS solely to play a HD-DVD through the PC.

.

Then don't and you won't have anything to whine about!

Perfect example of the sort of bellyaching I'm criticising. Your dvd based system will still work when hd-dvd and blu-ray come out. If you feel sick at the prospect of not having the latest format then go pay for it.

The only way we would ever get a decent mainstream hidef release format was with measures like HDCP. Its also likely to be the only way we ever get hidef PC tuner cards and sanctioned hidef downloads

Crib about it all you like but removing all the measures you find so irritatingly inelegant and expensive and you would lose any possibility of the formats existing in the first place. That's the point and there is no point acting all offended when those measures that we've been discussing for 3 years become concrete requirements.

Reminds me of people wingeing about dvd players not having RF stages.

[Albion]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Then don't and you won't have anything to whine about!

Perfect example of the sort of bellyaching I'm criticising. Your dvd based system will still work when hd-dvd and blu-ray come out. If you feel sick at the prospect of not having the latest format then go pay for it.

The only way we would ever get a decent mainstream hidef release format was with measures like HDCP. Its also likely to be the only way we ever get hidef PC tuner cards and sanctioned hidef downloads

Crib about it all you like but removing all the measures you find so irritatingly inelegant and expensive and you would lose any possibility of the formats existing in the first place. That's the point and there is no point acting all offended when those measures that we've been discussing for 3 years become concrete requirements.

Reminds me of people wingeing about dvd players not having RF stages.

A rather superior and condescending point of view.

Yes I will still have my DVD system when HD-DVD and BLU-RAY emerges slowly into the market place.Fortunately or unfortunately I am old enough to remember B/W and 60's archive TV.I still feel,that, better than broadcast quality DVD ,to be an absolute luxury,and its quite clear, that so do many others
Films I saw in hideous pan and scan can now be seen in their original widescreen glory, and in colour as well.I always used to sigh when the black bars dis-appeared after the opening title sequence ended.Now they never do.For that, my 25in SD TV will do me very nicely thankyou.And, for a long time to come, DVD, is maybe as far as many will want or need to go.

So why my interest in HD-DVD? I suppose because I have fond memories of the cinema.It interests me,otherwise why would I be here.
Of course studios have a right to protect their content.But my enthusiasm for HD-DVD could well be deferred for a long time,and so to could that of many others, who potentially may now prefer to shake their head with a reluctant upturned chin.I get the impression this is not what the studios want.This could also, ultimately, be made worse by the dual (duel) format fiasco.

When 3 or 4 years from now,you perhaps start wondering why all the HD-DVD/BLU-RAY titles that were planned or promised have'nt materialised,then you might look to HDCP/HDMI and AACS as one of the reasons.

In the meantime I will still be bathing in my nostalgic and luxuriously satisfying DVD heaven.Relaxingly prepared...to just sit...and wait.

[Croker]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Then don't and you won't have anything to whine about!

Perfect example of the sort of bellyaching I'm criticising. Your dvd based system will still work when hd-dvd and blu-ray come out. If you feel sick at the prospect of not having the latest format then go pay for it.

The only way we would ever get a decent mainstream hidef release format was with measures like HDCP. Its also likely to be the only way we ever get hidef PC tuner cards and sanctioned hidef downloads

Crib about it all you like but removing all the measures you find so irritatingly inelegant and expensive and you would lose any possibility of the formats existing in the first place. That's the point and there is no point acting all offended when those measures that we've been discussing for 3 years become concrete requirements.

Reminds me of people wingeing about dvd players not having RF stages.

I love the way you haven't read what I said in full. I said I didn't resent paying for an all-in-one box that does HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, just that I resented having to buy a ridiculous amount of new hardware just to use it a next gen-format on a PC. I'd be buying a standalone box, anyway, and I'm happy to wait for prices to fall, but those people who want or need to include either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray in a PC setup are about to get absolutely walloped in terms of having to buy what is - to me - an excess of new hardware.

I come back to the main thrust of my point (which you haven't addressed) - why, if an out of the box solution is possible for a next-gen standalone player, does a PC user have to buy a new OS, graphics card, monitor and drive? Surely a patch for current OSs would be more appropriate? Moreover, current gen cards are capable of handling HD streams - I've watched HD material through my PC with no problems - and yet I'd need to buy a new card just because my current one isn't capable of doing HDCP? This is nothing short of preposterous.

Of course we all know why the studios are doing it - in an attempt to prevent piracy - but as I said before, it is an attempt doomed to failure, just as it always is. Whilst there's a thriving trade in pirate DVDs, for example, the accessibility of the technology has made it so widespread that the companies can still make phenomenal profits. However, by making next-gen formats so inaccessible (at least on PC), and by having two competing formats, take-up is going to be slow and is liable to remain that way for a long time. They're shooting themselves in the foot on this one...and yet you seem convinced that this is entirely appropriate and sensible.

I never fail to be disappointed by people like you, who are happy for consumers to get absolutely shafted and pay more than is necessary, and then accuse people of whinging because they're not keen on doing so!

Besides which, not all of us have been discussing this "for 3 years", so at least allow people some latitude to discuss the proposals without showing as much of your negative attitude, eh? After all, your assumptions about me are flawed and insulting, which does not for healthy debate make. I don't "feel sick" at the prospect of not having the next format - I just don't think that people should have to needlessly pay the earth to enjoy it. This was DVDs greatest success, and could yet be HD-DVD and Blu-Ray's biggest downfall.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Albion

A rather superior and condescending point of view.

Well you were half right there but I'm afraid the rest didn't make an awful lot of sense.

[Croker]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Well you were half right there but I'm afraid the rest didn't make an awful lot of sense.

What he said made perfect sense. Even if you were to disagree entirely with his point of view, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to understand it.

If you've got nothing to add to this discussion other than bile and insults, then perhaps you might like to go elsewhere.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Croker

I love the way you haven't read what I said in full..

Foolish of me I know but unfortunately I did take the time to wade through your offering and once again I point out to you that the system that makes the hidef formats a reality requires you to have a fully HDCP compliant chain.

This has been known about for years and it seems odd that you didn't bother to keep up with a subject that now elicits such umbrage in you that you proverbially foam at the mouth. May I humbly suggest that's an oversight on your part rather than somebody elses.

If you find this unacceptable fine. Its not going to change things one iota so what exactly are you complaining about?

The requirements that have got your goat so much are simply what is required to give content creators sufficient confidence to release sanctioned high quality high definition versions of their product . You take them away you take the formats away. If you want to use the formats on a system thats got security holes you'll have to plug them end of story.

Whether or not the measures are hackable or circumventable is beside the point. The measures exist to make the formats a reality , you might as well complain that you have to fill your car at the petrol station.

There are no concrete facts as to whether we all have to move to vista for hd-dvd and bluray, although its likely the only way you will ever see a sky HD card and hidef downloads. Many popular graphics cards support HDCP over DVI , again though this may not be enough in practice. What we have known about for YEARS is that an HDCP compliant display would be a necessity.

If you want the new formats you need to meet the requirements.
If you don't like it then no-one is forcing you , moaning about it is just a tedious waste of energy.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Croker

What he said made perfect sense. Even if you were to disagree entirely with his point of view, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to understand it.

If you've got nothing to add to this discussion other than bile and insults, then perhaps you might like to go elsewhere.

I think he's old enough to look after himself.