1024 displays are not HD The HD Ready logo is misleading!

10bii · 10-11-2005, 12:29 PM

720P is 1280x720 resolution, the minimum HD resolution. 1024x.... displays can not show that resolution without the resolution being degraded down to 1024x.... resolution. The HD ready logo allows such tvs to be called HD Ready which gives the false impression that such tvs can actually show the minimum established HD resolution when in fact they can not.They can give a nice picture but it is not HD, it is not 720P 1280x720, the minimum established HD resolution that you are likely to see being broadcasted throughout Europe.

Stephen Neal · 10-11-2005, 12:45 PM

720p is not ALWAYS 1280x720. Just as 1080i is not ALWAYS 1920x1080. They are maximum standards.

In the US 1080i is often broadcast in 1280x1080. In Aus 1080i is broadcast as 1440x1080.

Non-SR HDCams operate at 1440x1080 on tape. DVCPro HD operates at 960x720 or 1280x1080 on tape. (That includes a LOT of material shot on the Varicam camcorder)

A lot of HD material has little HF energy above a certain level - so the perceived resolution of an HD display running in 1024x720 compared with a 1280x720 display may be far less than many people imagine - and certainly not look 20% softer. MPEG2 and MPEG4 work by progressively ditching HF detail, and often pre-soften to reduce compression artefacts.

Sure if everything else is equal a 1280x720 display is preferable to a 1024x720 display. However if things are not equal - you may get a far more watchable picture by chosing the lower resolution display, if things like black level, chromaticity, gamma, greyscale handling etc. are superior on the lower resolution display.

If you particularly want a small plasma, rather than an LCD, because the plasma benefits appeal to you, you may have a choice between a 1024x720 line plasma, or an SD panel.

If there isn't a 1280x720 panel in the technology you want, or at the price point you can afford, then you should still chose an HD Ready logo device rather than one that doesn't.

I would also be slightly wary of 1366x768 panels until you've seen them displaying a 720p native source - just so you can evaluate the quality of the vertical scaling compared to a 720 line native display.

Kevo · 10-11-2005, 12:46 PM

It's a good job that the human eye doesn't notice much change in resolution in the vertical res as it does in the horizontal then.

Same as current SD 16:9 which is 4:3 digital ratio. Don't think anyone can see any quality loss if it's shown in 16:9 or squashed 4:3. Stretcit the OTHER way and the quality loss is cleraly there to see.

MikeK · 10-11-2005, 3:38 PM

1024 displays are not HD, marketing them as HDTVs is misleading!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

720P is 1280x720 resolution, the minimum HD resolution. 1024x.... displays can not show that resolution without the resolution being degraded down to 1024x.... resolution. Marketing such tvs as HDTVs gives the false impression that such tvs can actually show the minimum established HD resolution when in fact they can not.They can give a nice picture but it is not HD, it is not 720P 1280x720, the minimum established HD resolution that you are likely to see being broadcasted throughout the USA!

StooMonster · 10-11-2005, 5:21 PM

Bothered?

StooMonster

DanH · 10-11-2005, 6:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeK

720P is 1280x720 resolution, the minimum HD resolution. 1024x.... displays can not show that resolution without the resolution being degraded down to 1024x.... resolution. Marketing such tvs as HDTVs gives the false impression that such tvs can actually show the minimum established HD resolution when in fact they can not.They can give a nice picture but it is not HD, it is not 720P 1280x720, the minimum established HD resolution that you are likely to see being broadcasted throughout the USA!

I think its worth pointing out (again) that 1024x plasmas are not being marketed as "HDTVs", they are being marketed as "HD Ready" and comply with that standard fully. Its also worth noting that they are only marketed as HDTVs in the USA, along with a lot of panels that lack any digital inputs with HDCP.

Whether you agree with the standards set out for the HD Ready logo or not, its better having it than not, as before we faced the same situation as the US when it comes to connectivity (or lack of) and compatability with standards likely to be broadcast in this country.

StooMonster · 10-11-2005, 8:20 PM

Am I bothered?

StooMonster

bayards · 10-11-2005, 8:29 PM

I have to follow that with "Huh, what a f****** liberty" as said by the old Gran......

H

10-11-2005, 9:09 PM

10bii, this subject has already been covered at length in another thread. Why start a new one? Do you live under a bridge? I already explained that 1024 x 720/768 plasmas are labelled HDTV in the US.

CKNA · 11-11-2005, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quickbeam

10bii, this subject has already been covered at length in another thread. Why start a new one? Do you live under a bridge? I already explained that 1024 x 720/768 plasmas are labelled HDTV in the US.

HD uses square pixels but on display panels pixels are not always square. 1024x768 is exactly 16:9 using rectangular pixels. 1280x720 is 16:9 using square pixels.

You need to learn more about different display technologies. Good place is here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=40

CKNA · 11-11-2005, 12:39 AM

Code:

In the US 1080i is often broadcast in 1280x1080.

That is innacurate statement. There is only one provider that does this. It is Directv. They take 1920x1080 and downconverted to 1280x1080 to compress better. There is no HD in US that originates as 1280x1080. Besides it is only temporary as they are switching to Mpeg4 now.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Neal

720p is not ALWAYS 1280x720. Just as 1080i is not ALWAYS 1920x1080. They are maximum standards.

In the US 1080i is often broadcast in 1280x1080. In Aus 1080i is broadcast as 1440x1080.

Non-SR HDCams operate at 1440x1080 on tape. DVCPro HD operates at 960x720 or 1280x1080 on tape. (That includes a LOT of material shot on the Varicam camcorder)

Care to give any examples of less than 720P shows being broadcasted?

Also, as far as I know, the resolution 1280x1080 you keep mentioning is not the norm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Neal

A lot of HD material has little HF energy above a certain level - so the perceived resolution of an HD display running in 1024x720 compared with a 1280x720 display may be far less than many people imagine - and certainly not look 20% softer. MPEG2 and MPEG4 work by progressively ditching HF detail, and often pre-soften to reduce compression artefacts.

HD on 1024 displays and HD on 1280 displays is a noticeabe difference. I can also clearly see it on my PC monitor.

People here need to stop selling 1024 displays as HD because they are not.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKNA

Code:

In the US 1080i is often broadcast in 1280x1080.

That is innacurate statement. There is only one provider that does this. It is Directv. They take 1920x1080 and downconverted to 1280x1080 to compress better. There is no HD in US that originates as 1280x1080. Besides it is only temporary as they are switching to Mpeg4 now.

Darn CKNA, I was waiting for a response and you blew it!

10bii · 11-11-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeK

1024 displays are not HD, marketing them as HDTVs is misleading!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

720P is 1280x720 resolution, the minimum HD resolution. 1024x.... displays can not show that resolution without the resolution being degraded down to 1024x.... resolution. Marketing such tvs as HDTVs gives the false impression that such tvs can actually show the minimum established HD resolution when in fact they can not.They can give a nice picture but it is not HD, it is not 720P 1280x720, the minimum established HD resolution that you are likely to see being broadcasted throughout the USA!

Well then I hope you are happy with your 1024x720 EDTV broadcasts.

Also, do me a favor, don't change what people write to make a point. Not everyone will understand or realize that you have done so. Many forums don't tolerate such things. It's also rather childish.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quickbeam

10bii, this subject has already been covered at length in another thread. Why start a new one? Do you live under a bridge? I already explained that 1024 x 720/768 plasmas are labelled HDTV in the US.

Yep, and what is being labeled as HDTV in America is absolutely irrelevant to an official European HD Ready label being misleading and flawed.

I started this thread to make it clear to people that are new to HD. The other thread's title does not necessarily do that.

I actually live above a bridge, by the way.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH

I think its worth pointing out (again) that 1024x plasmas are not being marketed as "HDTVs", they are being marketed as "HD Ready" and comply with that standard fully. Its also worth noting that they are only marketed as HDTVs in the USA, along with a lot of panels that lack any digital inputs with HDCP.

Whether you agree with the standards set out for the HD Ready logo or not, its better having it than not, as before we faced the same situation as the US when it comes to connectivity (or lack of) and compatability with standards likely to be broadcast in this country.

Dan Most of those words he quoted were mine but some were added at the end to change my post and to mock it. That's why I told him not to do such misleading and childish things.

See what happens Mike?

mrtbag · 11-11-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10bii

People here need to stop selling 1024 displays as HD because they are not.

They can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10bii

Also, do me a favor, don't change what people write to make a point. Not everyone will understand or realize that you have done so. Many forums don't tolerate such things. It's also rather childish.

You weren't being quoted. He submitted the text as his post. No problem with that.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrtbag

They can be.

Only if Europe establishes a new HD standard below 720P. It's possible since Australia calls 576P HD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrtbag

You weren't being quoted. He submitted the text as his post. No problem with that.

Yeah you don't have a problem with that but obviously nearly the entire text are my words verbatim.

Then again, you don't have a problem with people being sold displays that are not HD when they in fact expect them to be. Says a lot my friend.

mrtbag · 11-11-2005, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10bii

Then again, you don't have a problem with people being sold displays that are not HD when they in fact expect them to be. Says a lot my friend.

I think you should correct that to:

Then again, you don't have a problem with people being sold displays that have the HD Ready logo, and are less than 1280 x 720 when they in fact expect them to be. Says a lot my friend.

That would be my opinion. Not what you think my opinion is.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrtbag

I think you should correct that to:

Then again, you don't have a problem with people being sold displays that have the HD Ready logo, and are less than 1280 x 720 when they in fact expect them to be. Says a lot my friend.

That would be my opinion. Not what you think my opinion is.

A reasonable person would take the words HD Ready and conclude it is capable of actually displaying HD.

neilmcl · 11-11-2005, 11:29 AM

I would have a thought a reasonable person would expect that HD Ready meant just that Ready to operate with the new HD Services, as is the idea behind the licensing in the first place, not that the TV you are about to buy is a HDTV. The EICTA already have a seperate standard for HDTV.

mrtbag · 11-11-2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10bii

A reasonable person would take the words HD Ready and conclude it is capable of actually displaying HD.

We're not talking about what I 'conclude' it to mean. We are talking about what the EICTA actually mean in their spec. As I've said in other threads, the spec is badly written.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrtbag

We're not talking about what I 'conclude' it to mean. We are talking about what the EICTA actually mean in their spec. As I've said in other threads, the spec is badly written.

How should it have been written?

10bii · 11-11-2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmcl

I would have a thought a reasonable person would expect that HD Ready meant just that Ready to operate with the new HD Services, as is the idea behind the licensing in the first place, not that the TV you are about to buy is a HDTV. The EICTA already have a seperate standard for HDTV.

It boggles the imagination that anyone would expect to not being able to actually watch HD on a display labeled as HD Ready. It boggles the mind.

So are 852x480 plasmas able to disply the HD Ready logo?

By the way, the way it works over here any HDTV tuner can operate with the oldest of TVs. I would expect your SKY boxes to be no different.

mrtbag · 11-11-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10bii

How should it have been written?

If you'd read the other thread properly, you'd already know my opinion on that. Oh well, I'll just repeat myself.

If they want to the text to truely represent want they mean, then something like this:

The minimum native resolution of the display (e.g. LCD, PDP) or display
engine (e.g. DLP) is 720 physical lines and the display should be of a wide aspect ratio.

neilmcl · 11-11-2005, 11:52 AM

There is one way that this can resolved to your satisfaction 10bii, or at the very least show you what the EICTA's intention behind the whole HD Ready logo program. The email address is info@eicta.org, drop them a line outlining your concerns and that you believe that they are being misleading and lets see what their response will be.

mrtbag · 11-11-2005, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10bii

So are 852x480 plasmas able to disply the HD Ready logo?

No. As they do not have 720 lines as per the 'spec'.

10bii · 11-11-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrtbag

If you'd read the other thread properly, you'd already know my opinion on that. Oh well, I'll just repeat myself.

If they want to the text to truely represent want they mean, then something like this:

The minimum native resolution of the display (e.g. LCD, PDP) or display
engine (e.g. DLP) is 720 physical lines and the display should be of a wide aspect ratio.

I read the other thread and your words just fine and I'll ask you the same question I asked in the other thread. What does 720 lines mean to a digital display?

If no horizontal resolution is specified then logoically any horizontal resolution should suffice. Say like one very wide pixel?

10bii · 11-11-2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrtbag

No. As they do not have 720 lines as per the 'spec'.

How about a 1x720 display? Surely that must be HD Ready.

mrtbag · 11-11-2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10bii

I read the other thread and your words just fine and I'll ask you the same question I asked in the other thread. What does 720 lines mean to a digital display?

Like we've said before, if you want to know what they mean ask the EICTA.

I am not part of the EICTA. I did not help them write the spec. I acnnot answer questions on their behalf. Capisce?

10-11-2005, 9:09 PM	#9
Quickbeam Guest Posts: n/a	10bii, this subject has already been covered at length in another thread. Why start a new one? Do you live under a bridge? I already explained that 1024 x 720/768 plasmas are labelled HDTV in the US.