[Boostrail]

Originally Posted by rioeire

I mean the charts like these ones (see below), I was being sarcastic when I said "false" what the charts show is that you have to be at 7 feet on a 50 inches TV to see the differences between 1080p and 720p

on these forums and web pages

I dindt proof as fact what I saw on the shop, I cant proof my eyes !
the charts show that to take full advantage of a fULL HD TV of 50 inches you need to be around 7 feet distance, more or less 2 meters

Yeah but these charts are all based on ???what???

Certainly not my HDTV , my HDTV sources, my eyes (and yes I have been to the opticians), at my viewing distances.

I have the advantage of having 2x37"LCD's from the same manufacturer (Panasonic) in the same model year. One1920x1080 and one 1366x768. Both supplied via HDMI from the same HD sources. I can switch between derived 720p, or broadcast 1080i, or even 1080p from these sources Both viewed at a distance of about 2.5 metres. The full HD 1920x1080 TV fed with any of these sources except the derived 720p(which is the worst but samey on the lower resolution LCD)) is noticeably better.

[rioeire]

Originally Posted by Boostrail

Yeah but these charts are all based on ???what???

Certainly not my HDTV , my HDTV sources, my eyes (and yes I have been to the opticians), at my viewing distances.

I have the advantage of having 2x37"LCD's from the same manufacturer (Panasonic) in the same model year. One1920x1080 and one 1366x768. Both supplied via HDMI from the same HD sources. I can switch between derived 720p, or broadcast 1080i, or even 1080p from these sources Both viewed at a distance of about 2.5 metres. The full HD 1920x1080 TV fed with any of these sources except the derived 720p(which is the worst but samey on the lower resolution LCD)) is noticeably better.

So the charts are useless?,strange how they are useless for people with 1080p TV I hope somebody comes to the thread asking for the reason you said they are "useless" (like I was asked) , you can post your own distance chart of course in which you can clearly see differences on a 37" LCD tv form 2,5 meters from 1080p and a 720p


Well I had the advantages of having a HD ready plasma 50 inches TV and a High end 47" FULL HD LCD for me after seeking around retailers, reading and watching about "hundreds" of tvs, plasmas are the way to go unless you want to use your TV as a huge PC monitor or playing 24/7 consoles games, but thats another debate

I have never said that 1080p tvs are worst than 720p TV what people seems no to understand (marketing works fine ) is that nowdays the advantages of FULL HD TVs are very very few for most of the people and in equal conditons o quality and electronics

IMO:

1 For SD TV signals--------- TV HD ready is better
2 For DVD movies--------- TV HD ready is better
3 For HD 720p/1080i----------- TV HD ready is as good or better than FUll HD (and it cost you much less so HD ready si better for this since is cheaper)
4 FOR HD 1080P- FULL HD is better , only if we are willing to sit very close to the TV if not it would be the same

Now I reckon the day all signals are 1080p , then that day FULL HD will be not overated until then I have the feeling they are trying to sell us an sport car for using it in city center at rush hour.

[JanAndersen]

Originally Posted by Boostrail

Yeah but these charts are all based on ???what???

Certainly not my HDTV , my HDTV sources, my eyes (and yes I have been to the opticians), at my viewing distances.

I have the advantage of having 2x37"LCD's from the same manufacturer (Panasonic) in the same model year. One1920x1080 and one 1366x768. Both supplied via HDMI from the same HD sources. I can switch between derived 720p, or broadcast 1080i, or even 1080p from these sources Both viewed at a distance of about 2.5 metres. The full HD 1920x1080 TV fed with any of these sources except the derived 720p(which is the worst but samey on the lower resolution LCD)) is noticeably better.

Its a question of what is significant - and what is not. Which your story is a good example..

Having a scaller converting the signal has a much higher significance than the optical question. Further - mid and low-end TV sets with low cost scallers gives an even worse result. At High-end TV sets, such as some Pioneer models, the difference is probaly much less notiseable as they used rather expensive scallers.

If a conclusion should be drawn, the cheeper TV set, the more important it is to get a 1:1 fit with your favorite source.

Not to mention the issue of wether its a good idea to let the set top box do the scalling - adds further complexity to this issue - but as boostrail do - best instrument, is to use your eyes - and try all combinations till you find the best result.

Not to mention yet another issue - converting SD material to 720p or 1080p, which quality entialy depends of the scaller configuration and priority of the SD to HD scaller in the individual TV set.

[rioeire]

Its a question of what is significant - and what is not. Which your story is a good example..

mines are not?

Having a scaller converting the signal has a much higher significance than the optical question. Further - mid and low-end TV sets with low cost scallers gives an even worse result. At High-end TV sets, such as some Pioneer models, the difference is probaly much less notiseable as they used rather expensive scallers.

could be, but but my 700 euros 50 HD ready TV and my sister 400 euros HD ready TV look much better with SD signals than my High end 1600 Euros Super Full HD TV
and the HD look almost the same
you can always use other electronics scallers (PS3, DVD etc...) and save hundreds of euros

If a conclusion should be drawn, the cheeper TV set, the more important it is to get a 1:1 fit with your favorite source.

yeah and no if the cheeper set offers me almost the same or better quality in many sources then I dont care about the 1:1 fit

Not to mention the issue of wether its a good idea to let the set top box do the scalling - adds further complexity to this issue - but as boostrail do - best instrument, is to use your eyes - and try all combinations till you find the best result.

I have tried this many times in both TV and I must be blind cause with PS3, with western digital TV Hard Disk and with a Piooner DVD Dv 400, I didnt notice any difference in either the FULL HD TV or The HD ready TV ouputting different sources (576i, 56p 720p 1080p etc)

but yeah I have noticed with my very bad sight that 1024X720 TV look fantastic with 1080p materials and 576i materials and cost you around 500 pounds with the rest of this money you can buy a BD player like Philips 9500 (QDEO processor) and let it do the sacaling

when FULL HD TV look excellent with 1080p material and bad with 576i, and then they cost you much more

and it is easier to downconvert than to upconvert since the scaller doesnt have to invent anything, another good point fot HD ready sets

[Curly99]

@ rioeire: if all your going to do is rehash the same old arguments then I might as well close the thread, this has turned out not to be a discussion or convince me thread but a thread where all you are doing is picking apart peoples reasoned opinions or facts to post your already biased opinion.... seems to me that you don't want convincing.

Convince me that this thread is worth keeping open.

[rioeire]

right now we were talking about scalling

I accept that most FULL HD TV have better electronics (most) because FULL HD TV are usually high end (at least in Plasma TV) then usually High end Tv as Jan said should scale better than a cheap Tv.
Then I said that for the price you have saved buying an HD ready plasma TV you can get a great BD player to do the scalling.

Thats why I was complaining about (some posts before) manufacterers "Give me a Great HD ready TV with high end electronics.!!!!"

If people want to buy FULL HD TV in 32" inches size well, thats up to them and to their money ,I was just trying to explain why I think the FULL HD feature is overrated and if that helped some people I am more than happy .

Now, "FULL HD people" always have the same arguments, pixel mapping, native resolutions , scalling , I believe these arguments but my eyes dont, I dont see any real difference nowdays that is worth paying for ,´
my arguements have bee always the same ones, picture quality difference vs price difference

and finally I am not an english native speaker so for me it is difficult to make myself as clear as for you, thats why sometimes I sound repetitive sorry for that .

[ricki]

Originally Posted by Curly99

@ rioeire: if all your going to do is rehash the same old arguments then I might as well close the thread, this has turned out not to be a discussion or convince me thread but a thread where all you are doing is picking apart peoples reasoned opinions or facts to post your already biased opinion.... seems to me that you don't want convincing.

Convince me that this thread is worth keeping open.

Calm down doug. He is having a discussion on an important topic, what has it got to do with you?

[Curly99]

Originally Posted by ricki

Calm down doug. He is having a discussion on an important topic, what has it got to do with you?

it has everything to do with me, I mod this forum, if someone is rehashing the same views over and over again or trolling or adding nothing to the discussion as you are I question it. so I ask you.... what has it got to with you? posting comments like yours on the forums can only lead to infractions and all that entails so....

[ricki]

Originally Posted by Curly99

it has everything to do with me, I mod this forum, if someone is rehashing the same views over and over again or trolling or adding nothing to the discussion as you are I question it. so I ask you.... what has it got to with you? posting comments like yours on the forums can only lead to infractions and all that entails so....

I am not an enemy or whatever and I don't want you to see me that way likewise. My statement/question above may seem harsh to you taking into account your response.

Probably, you may have misread / misinterpret my notion. So don't take this personal.

[Interceptor121]

I was of the same opinion of the OP however by the end of the year there will be 5 HD channels on freeview and there are already plenty on SKY HD
To say that an HD Ready displays HD channels the same is optimistic at least
because you loose 74 pixels horizontal and 312 vertical when you watch 1080i on an HD ready so loosing around 23000 pixles in the downscaling
I have an old Hitachi with 1280*1024 display and this dinosaur displays 1080i better than newer HD Ready but I loose only 8960 pixels in the downscaling
Funny enough I am getting some compliments from users of newer Tv about how good the Tv looks
In light of the fact that most of what is going to be broadcasted will be HD within a year (ok the other channels sometimes have something good but mostly don't) I would not buy an HD Ready Tv now unless we are looking at an over 50" plasma to play only DVD and 720p content

[Curly99]

[No enemy]...I asked the question as I see the same things posted over and over again it does get tedious and adds nothing except +1 to a post count, anyway I asked the question and the person I directed the question to replied, so there was no need for you to post...right let this be the end of this discussion as it is dragging the thread off topic [/No enemy]

[rioeire]

thanks or your sharing interceptor


tis time I will try not to repeat mysef Curly99

To say that an HD Ready displays HD channels the same is optimistic at least

maybe I am optimistic my eyes cant tell the difference

anyway what do you think would happen if TV producers use the same quality electronics and processor they are using on a lets say Panasonic VT25 (or whatever is the name of the newest model ) on a Panasonic X20 HD ready?

because you loose 74 pixels horizontal and 312 vertical when you watch 1080i on an HD ready so loosing around 23000 pixles in the downscaling

it is easier to downscale than to upscale am I wrong?

I would not buy an HD Ready Tv now unless we are looking at an over 50" plasma to play only DVD and 720p content

the problem IMO are the people who buy big Full HD LCD Tv to watch SD content at least you know what you are buying and what you are using your telly for

I was of the same opinion of the OP however by the end of the year there will be 5 HD channels on freeview and there are already plenty on SKY HD

that it is great but unfortunately it doesnt happen everywhere and many people are not willing to pay for HD cahnnels despite the fact they buy HD TV

[Interceptor121]

Buying a big HD 1080p TV to watch DVDs and SD is stupid I concur

Going back to upscaling and downscaling I would think that mapping the existing pixels to more pixels (upscaling) could introduce artifacts but definitely will give less problems than mapping the existing to less (downscaling)
You have 5 times more pixels with a 1080p displaying SD content the only reason why you get better SD picture sometime must be in the poor quality of the scaling software not in the display resolution HD Ready vs HD 1080p

[anika hanson]

I'm sure a good quality full HD TV is better than a good HD ready TV. However I am more than happy with my HD ready TV. It gives a fair picture with SD and an excellent picture with Sky HD content and Blu ray. It does everything I want it to do, to a standard I am more than happy with, so I am not too bothered with the fact that I do not have a full HD tv.

[rioeire]

Buying a big HD 1080p TV to watch DVDs and SD is stupid I concur

I am afraid many people do that, the raitonal option then would be to buy a CRT TV but that is imposble nowdays, the closest thing in that case would be an HD ready Plasma TV I that is great with SD signals and good in HD material, what do you think?

Going back to upscaling and downscaling I would think that mapping the existing pixels to more pixels (upscaling) could introduce artifacts but definitely will give less problems than mapping the existing to less (downscaling)

Well I thought downscaling is better than upscaling, best to take info out than create info that was never there in the first place

You have 5 times more pixels with a 1080p displaying SD content the only reason why you get better SD picture sometime must be in the poor quality of the scaling software not in the display resolution HD Ready vs HD 1080p

My Phillips FULL HD LCD TV 9664 (1300 pounds)has a great processor or so I have read , still the SD TV looks much better on my Plasma HD ready (600 Pounds)TV, and in all TV I have seen 576i signals look better on 720p sets so I wouldnt say is sometime I would say "always"

[Interceptor121]

If it is a trend there must be some logical reason that I do not know to date...
I have KEF KIT DVD player that upscales as well as an old sky digibox and a humax foxsat HD
I will make some tests. I am pretty sure SD TV looks better in Original mode than in 1080i with the Humax and definitely very soft in 576p/720p
However I do not really watch much TV at all with my set mostly is AppleTv and DVDs

[rioeire]

Originally Posted by Interceptor121

If it is a trend there must be some logical reason that I do not know to date...
I have KEF KIT DVD player that upscales as well as an old sky digibox and a humax foxsat HD
I will make some tests. I am pretty sure SD TV looks better in Original mode than in 1080i with the Humax and definitely very soft in 576p/720p
However I do not really watch much TV at all with my set mostly is AppleTv and DVDs

thanks!

I have tried this

Pioneer DVD DV-400 -HDMI

On FULL HD LCD TV

No difference outputting 576p 720p 1080p

On HD ready TV

No difference outputting 576p 720p 1080p

I prefered the picture quality on the HD ready Palsma TV


Western Digital TV -HDMI

Playing same movie .mkv and .avi (HD and SD)
outputting 576i 576p 720p qnd 1080p all at 60hz

Except for 576i (which looked bad in both TV) the quality of the pictures was absolutely the same in the two tellys


PS3-HDMI

a 1080p native game(MGS4) looked bit better at 1 meter distance on the FULL HD TV, the rest looked the same on both TV

[Interceptor121]

An HD Ready TV cannot output 1080p but only 1080i so your Plasma is actually fully HD

So I believe you are saying that you prefer Plasma TV over LCD

I am on the same page LCD are only good for TV definitely not for sport movies or gaming

[rioeire]

Originally Posted by Interceptor121

An HD Ready TV cannot output 1080p but only 1080i so your Plasma is actually fully HD

well I was refering to the fact that the DVD and in all my the other devices I tried to output 1080p etc on the FULL HD TV and HD ready TV ,now the HD ready downscale the 1080p signal and no , my plasma is HD ready (LG )PQ6000 but as any HD ready TV it accepts 1080p signals

[Bonjour]

My LCD is perfectly fine for sports, movies (streaming and optical) and gaming.

Or at least, it has been so far..

[Interceptor121]

Originally Posted by rioeire

well I was refering to the fact that the DVD and in all my the other devices I tried to output 1080p etc on the FULL HD TV and HD ready TV ,now the HD ready downscale the 1080p signal and no , my plasma is HD ready (LG )PQ6000 but as any HD ready TV it accepts 1080p signals

Not at all. HD Ready TV have to accept 1080i not 1080p. This specific LG series that you got accepts 1080p but that is not the case with all HD Ready TV. So while this can be true for this series it could be not true for other devices on the market. My HD Ready TV does not accept 1080p input.

[David DG]

Very interesting thread. I'm looking to buy a 37" tv. I sit about 2m away and I have a blu ray player. With these things in mind, should I buy a 1080p LCD or save £150 and go with a HD ready plasma?

[Interceptor121]

37" is a tiny screen to watch full HD
Either you get to less than 1.5 mt or there won't be any difference between a 1080p or a 720p

[anika hanson]

My LCD HD ready tv accepts 1080p inputs and is also excellent for sports and movies.

[David DG]

Thanks. I'm just worried that I'll be missing out on the 'blu ray experience' if I go HD ready. I watch a lot of films.

[Interceptor121]

I think you lot are making a lot of confusion about the various standard

HD Ready means it take 1080i and 720p
HD Ready 1080p meant it takes and displays 1080p

If a TV can take 1080i/720p and 1080p and display on a screen that is less than 1920*1080 then that device is HD Ready compliant because it fullfils the minimum specification
however that does not mean that ALL devices that have HD Ready are capable of taking as the specifications only stop at 1080i

So a TV that has HD Ready and in addition to that can process 1080p input (through an internal downscaler) cannot be used to prove the point that HD Ready Tv are better than HD Ready 1080p or HDTV

[rioeire]

I think you lot are making a lot of confusion about the various standard

no, I know all the standars very well

HD Ready means it take 1080i and 720p
HD Ready 1080p meant it takes and displays 1080p

ALL HD ready TV 720p/1080i nowdays and in the last 2 years accept signals sent by any device at 1080p

So a TV that has HD Ready and in addition to that can process 1080p input (through an internal downscaler) cannot be used to prove the point that HD Ready Tv are better than HD Ready 1080p or HDTV

I have been comparing 2 TVs using different devices outputs in 2 different TV , one 1080p LCD and the other 720p TV (that accepts 1080p signals) remenber the FULL HD cost em 1600 euros and 50" the Plasma 800 euros


you said before that the important thing is the scaler abilities rather than the resolution itself, so my question is :

then howcome SD signal look better on cheap HD ready TV than in expensives FULL HD TV if the scaler is suppose to be better on a Sony X4500 than in a Samsung B450




I repeat again what I have tried on both TV changing, the output with the players and different devices

Pioneer DVD DV-400 -HDMI

On FULL HD LCD TV

No difference outputting 576p 720p 1080p

On HD ready TV

No difference outputting 576p 720p 1080p

I prefered the picture quality on the HD ready Palsma TV


Western Digital TV -HDMI

Playing same movie .mkv and .avi (HD and SD)
outputting 576i 576p 720p qnd 1080p all at 60hz

Except for 576i (which looked bad in both TV) the quality of the pictures was absolutely the same in the two tellys


PS3-HDMI

a 1080p native game(MGS4) looked bit better at 1 meter distance on the FULL HD TV, the rest looked the same on both TV

I have never said that TV 720p are better than 1080P TV in equal conditions, I am saying that FULL HD is overated and 80% of population will have enough with and HD ready to wacht SD TV and some HD contents


You said that downscaling is more difficult than upscaling, I do not think so

for the rest, please this is not a discusion of LCD vs Plasma so don´t come here asking about that

[andy1249]

for the rest, please this is not a discusion of LCD vs Plasma

Actually this is not a discussion at all , its just you playing tennis with whatever gets posted in order to convince yourself youve done the right thing.

You really want a Full HD TV , dont you ?

[Interceptor121]

HD Ready is for 1080i/720p you can't redefine a standard

So you could say is it worth the difference in price between HD Ready 1080p or Full HD? And the answer is yes if you watch Blueray Disks or high fos content because the HDTV won't drop frames

In practical terms having a look at the Panasonic Range (LG has no FullHD plasma so I can't compare)

Starting point HD Ready TV capable of accepting an 1080p input
Add £105 to get an HD Ready 1080p
Add £320 to get Full HD with freesat decoder (take 120 out for the decoder so say 200)


Trying to watch a bluray on a HD Ready 1080p is a waste or time as you would be better off at 720p and not loose any frames

Also considering that at 2 meters you need at least 46" (closer would be putting your face in the TV) I would think that in general terms for all LCD Tv an HD Ready capable of handling 1080p input is adequate and once you make it to 50" you should get a full HD so that at least you can watch a bluray decently

The intermediate step of HD Ready 1080p in which most of the Tv fall seems only good for people that watch a lot of HD TV like sky (where the signal is actually 1440*1080)

So if you want to watch a bluray at 2 meters and can't afford a 46 inch full HD you can save your money and get an HD Ready TV

[rioeire]

Originally Posted by andy1249

Actually this is not a discussion at all , its just you playing tennis with whatever gets posted in order to convince yourself youve done the right thing.

You really want a Full HD TV , dont you ?

I had a FULL HD TV Philips 47PFL-9664, if you had read the thread you would had noticed this