[swin70]

Hi,

It has been a long time since I have looked at audio/visual stuff but have got myself back into it recently. I’m looking to set up a fairly low cost Home Cinema type system and after looking at the audio specs I came across HDTV.

After a quick search, there doesn’t seem to be that much need for it in the UK at the moment but is it worth while purchasing an HDTV ready system. Cost is of PRIME importance; however there seem to be a couple of 32" models on the market at just over £600 and I’m thinking that the future trend is only going to go this way. Seeing as the old TV has lasted 15 years or so, I thought I may as well get something that is compatible with future technology.

Am I missing something here?

[cerebros]

Originally posted by swin70

Am I missing something here?

Er, the lack of any HDTV capable CRT sets here?

At present, only certain plasma's and LCD panels will give you HDTV resolutions in the UK.

A number of manufacturers have technology in their sets that artificially upconvert the resolution (i.e. Philip's Pixel Plus, Panasonic's Acuity), but they can only accept standard definition material (although Pansonic's PD30 sets can allegedly accept HDTV with modification, although I've yet to hear of this actually being done).

It'll be a few months (if not years) before HDTV CRT's go on sale over here - I doubt very much that manufacturers will bother until there's definitely going to be a HDTV broadcast system. By the time that happens, all the big name manufacturers will probably have abandoned CRT for plasma, LCD, or newer technologies and just rebadge cheapo makes as their own stuff (as happens now with VCR's).

If you want future proofing, you're going to have to look towards spending a fair bit more than £600 I'm afraid

[swin70]

Indeed, it was both the Panasonic and Philips set I had come accross breefly, namely the Panasonic TX-32PS12
an the Philips 32DW6557, 32DW6558C and 32PW6506.

All of these are within the price range I can afford and claim to be HDTV ready.

Chris

As far as I know, in CRTs the only way to get HD (480p, 576p, 720p or 1080i) is through component inputs and no Philips TV sold in Europe that I know of has them, neither the Panny you mention.
A part from the Panny PD30 with its "its possible but nobody knows how to" mod which cerebros mentions, the only CRT advertised as HD capable are the new JVC 28P37, 32P387 and 36P38 (which I should be receiving in a few days). The 32" was tested last month by WhatVideoTV and said PQ was probably the best CRT ever with either PS PAL DVD or D-VHS in HDTV, so it is 100% verified HDTV compatible. It didn't fare well in analogue RF and Sky+, as I mainly watch DVD, for me its no prob.
The only problem is that the 32" is a little over £600, with £1000 a more likely figure.

[swin70]

Many thanks for your input. A said at the beginning, I'm a bit of a newb when it comes to this. After posting I did check the Philips and Panasonic site and neither mention anything about HDTV - on any model that I could find.

FYI, the "HDTV Compatible" information I got was through various searches. Specifically, typing hdtv into dealtime.co.uk (http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xPP-Standa...790-hdtv_ready) throws up all sorts of CRT, plasma and LCD models.

Interestinglym, after a real quick search, the JVC model you mention (JVC HV-32P37?) comes in a £825 (http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xFS?FN=Sta...KW=32P37&FD=86). If this is the right one then its a little overbudget but another month or two so may prove it possible to obtain.

Chris

[cerebros]

Originally posted by Totalnoobee

the only CRT advertised as HD capable are the new JVC 28P37, 32P387 and 36P38 (which I should be receiving in a few days).

Good point! I'd completely forgotten the JVC's were HDTV (quite how since i spent a good deal of time considering them for my next set solely because of their HDTV compatibility I don't know)

[buns]

seek out Retro..... he was telling me about HDTV jvc sets.....

ad

[RecordablDVDfan]

So what is the cheapest HDTV you can buy in the UK ? Are these true HDTV or do they use some kind of digital prograssive scanning like DVD players to display 1080 lines ?

Also is there only one type of HD now as it seems the world have adopted the NTSC / US system of 1080 and not 1250 lines

[cerebros]

Cheapest would be JVC's HV28P37 which is a 28" and can be bought for around £630. It's about £840 for the 32" version (HV32P37), and a shade under £1300 for the 36" (HV36P38).

They are genuinely HDTV 1080i compatible - in this thread posters Piya and Totalnoobee have both successfully fed 1080i via PC add-in cards or gfx card output adapters.

It just seems that the sets are only so-so with poor input sources (but then that seems to apply to sets with 100Hz and processing anyway from what you read on these forums)

[The Ironduke]

I always thought the Loewe TV's could do progressive TV.

also the HDTV image would be scaled down to fit the TV's screen, this would make a super all be it small image (32) and defeating the point for the "BigAzz plasma boys" here

The problem with the JVC is not small. After watching a few films in either 625/576P or upscaled to 1080i it really tough to watch std analogue TV, or worse, freeview through RGB scart.
Try driving a Ferrari for a week and then climb on to a 40 year old mini and you'll see what I mean and its not the format, its the way this telly handles it, DIST goes nuts with poor quality sources.
If anyone watches analogue, or wants to connect anything using composite, S-Video or even RGB scart, look for antoher set.

[Wayne Moule]

Originally posted by Totalnoobee
The problem with the JVC is not small. After watching a few films in either 625/576P or upscaled to 1080i it really tough to watch std analogue TV, or worse, freeview through RGB scart.
Try driving a Ferrari for a week and then climb on to a 40 year old mini and you'll see what I mean and its not the format, its the way this telly handles it, DIST goes nuts with poor quality sources.
If anyone watches analogue, or wants to connect anything using composite, S-Video or even RGB scart, look for antoher set.

Do you mean it looks amazing in HD,but crap with Freeview etc?

Wayne,
What I meant is that if you feed the JVC a good, or maybe I should say a very good signal, the PQ is really amazing and once you have seen it, going back to something of lesser quality is quite annoying. The JVC is very keen on component and not so much on RGB scart, SVideo or composite.
I have only tried one freeview STB, the Philips DTR1000. And it was terrible, but I belive is not only the TV or the decoder's fault, the DTT signals available over here (Spain) are terrible in all but two channels. Sports are definitely unwatchable because of pixelation and artifacts.
Good quality is not only HD, progressive scan DVD through component is also fantastic and there are quite a number of DVD players with PAL/NTSC PS available.

[swin70]

There are some good pointers here, but I originally wanted to look at CRT that would be capable of showing the current broadcast in the UK (as a newbie i think that both analogue and digital channel at broadcast at 625i PAL signals?) and would also be capable of showing tomorrows broadcasts.

Again, I am a newbie at this but after looking a little bit more into HDTV, I am even further confused about the differing possibilities. In the States for example, certain networks are broadcasting 720p, whilst others are broadcasting 1080i. From what I have read HTDV covers not only these but a myriad of other technical possibilities of scanning resolutions. Not only that, AFAIK, we don't really have HDTV broadcasts in this country as yet - so what on earth are they going to settle on in the future?

Another thing that confuses me is - is there going to be a standardisation towards refresh rates with HDTV or is there going to be HDTV NTSC at 60 Hz and HDTV PAL at 50Hz?

With all the possibilities it seems like a really BAD time to be thinking of buying a TV!

Swin

[Wayne Moule]

I guess the 5 analogue channels could be turned into the new 5 HDTV digital channels,BBC 1,BBC 2,ITV etc.We can dream.Though if some of them use the low bit-rate they use now,HDTV quality would be wasted.

It seems HDTV DVD and possibly Sat,will be a stepping stone before HDTV really takes off over here.Affordable amazing value verses performance TV technology like the JVC will help this.

The current range of TVs offer the best in all formats at the moment,be the pictures sourced from DVD,Sat or Freeview.

Now is the best and most exciting time to shop for a TV,especially with what's around the corner.

[Dutch]

Hi Swin,

I believe there are about 18 different formats in the ATSC specs, with 720p and 1080i at 60Hz being used in the US. Australia uses 1080i/50Hz, as does the new Euro1080 company. To be sure of being able to view all these different formats, you would be wise to get a suitable plasma screen or projector. The next generation HD DVD should be 1080p native res. Can't wait!

Steve

[CKNA]

HDTV NTSC at 60 Hz and HDTV PAL at 50Hz?

There is no such thing as NTSC HD or PAL HD. HD is HD which can be 50Hz or 60Hz interlaced or 50fps or 60fps progressive.

I believe there are about 18 different formats in the ATSC specs

You are correct, but ATSC standard 18 formats include Standard Definition and Enhanced Definition plus HD. That is why there are 18.
Only 720p, 1080i and 1080p are HD. 720p can be 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60fps. 1080i can be 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60Hz plus 1080p can have 24 or 30fps.

Also formats have nothing to do with 8VSB or COFDM. These are just OTA modulations which can carry any of those formats.
I just wanted to make that clear as some people confuse this.

[swin70]

Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Now is the best and most exciting time to shop for a TV,especially with what's around the corner.

I guess this is my point though. Spending, £600-£1000 on a good quality widescreen CRT now, may mean that what happen just "around the corner" will render it superfluious with the need for some other kind of set top gizmo.

Wouldn't it be better until the corner is rounded to know what exactly is around it?

Also,

Originally posted by Dutch
To be sure of being able to view all these different formats, you would be wise to get a suitable plasma screen or projector.

I am definately thinking that this will be the way to go in the future, but as of now is it my eyes or do all plasma screens show really poor images from normal TV broadcasts as the moment?

I haven't seen one standard PAL broadcast signal reproduced on a plasma screen that come close to an image from a CRT. Can it be assumed that if a plasma screen was the same resolution as the broacast resolution then the image quality would improve? Also, due to plasma technology, would they be more suited to displaying non-interlaced rather than interlaced images?

[cerebros]

Originally posted by swin70
I guess this is my point though. Spending, £600-£1000 on a good quality widescreen CRT now, may mean that what happen just "around the corner" will render it superfluious with the need for some other kind of set top gizmo.

Wouldn't it be better until the corner is rounded to know what exactly is around it?

If you apply that philosophy you'll never buy anything. There's ALWAYS going to be a new product "just around the corner" that may (or may not) be better than what you're considering buying now.

[Dutch]

swin,

If you have only seen 480 line plasmas, then you will be missing 96 lines of a PAL broadcast. My plasma has a 768 line resolution so there is no loss of detail on PAL sources. Unfortunately with Freeview and Sky, you at the mercy of their low bit-rate broadcasts and their artifacts which are obviously more visible on a 43" screen. I use a Lumagen processor to greatly improve Sky pictures by ouputting a 1080p signal to my plasma, which then scales it to the native 768p. Hope this helps.

Steve

[swin70]

If you apply that philosophy you'll never buy anything. There's ALWAYS going to be a new product "just around the corner" that may (or may not) be better than what you're considering buying now.

Now I'm a bit to a tech head and am interested in all new things, but when it to TV's I don't think the adage applies. Consider this - when was the last big breakthrough in broadcasting technology? Colour TV itself. And the break though before that – well TV!

When it comes to broadcasting standards, it will be some time before they change significantly again. Whilst the peripheral technology improves, the core remains the same. Most people when they buy a TV will expect to keep it for 10 years or so before they even think of changing it. So someone buying today and spending £1000 on a TV is going to be a little miffed if HDTV broadcasts start going general in two years time or so.

So it still comes down to the original question – during this change over period what can do well now and perform in the future? The problem is I don’t think we really know in this country what the future is going to be, but it is just around the corner!

I use a Lumagen processor to greatly improve Sky pictures by ouputting a 1080p signal to my plasma, which then scales it to the native 768p. Hope this helps.

Many thnaks for this. Have you any further information?

[CKNA]

If you have only seen 480 line plasmas, then you will be missing 96 lines of a PAL broadcast

No you do not miss 96 lines as Plasma is progressive and PAL broadcast is interlaced. Each field in PAL broadcast has 288 lines so it has to be upscaled to 480.

[Wayne Moule]

Originally posted by swin70
Consider this - when was the last big breakthrough in broadcasting technology? Colour TV itself. And the break though before that – well TV!

I think digital and widescreen were the last big changes introduced in 1998.Plus,Sky now broadcasts Dolby Digital.

[swin70]

Originally posted by Wayne Moule
I think digital and widescreen were the last big changes introduced in 1998.Plus,Sky now broadcasts Dolby Digital.

Still peripheral to the main broadcasting technology, PAL. And sound representation is something completely different. I think If I were to be spending a grand or so on a TV or would probably bypass the sound system completely, infact if maybe better if tv manufactures produced unit that did not concentrate on sound, but this is a whole other subject.

[cerebros]

Originally posted by swin70
Now I'm a bit to a tech head and am interested in all new things, but when it to TV's I don't think the adage applies. Consider this - when was the last big breakthrough in broadcasting technology? Colour TV itself. And the break though before that – well TV!

When it comes to broadcasting standards, it will be some time before they change significantly again. Whilst the peripheral technology improves, the core remains the same. Most people when they buy a TV will expect to keep it for 10 years or so before they even think of changing it. So someone buying today and spending £1000 on a TV is going to be a little miffed if HDTV broadcasts start going general in two years time or so.

Who's talking about the broadcast system? I'm talking about the display technology for the home where there's been a number of new choices in recent years, i.e.

PLasma
LCD
LCD projectors
DLP projectors
DLP RPTV's
LCOS (which is just "around the corner)

Then look at the connections front. SCART, composite & S-Video connections have been around for years, yet now you've got component as well, and DVI & HDMI coming into the consumer space.

[swin70]

Originally posted by cerebros
Who's talking about the broadcast system? I'm talking about the display technology for the home where there's been a number of new choices in recent years, i.e.

PLasma
LCD
LCD projectors
DLP projectors
DLP RPTV's
LCOS (which is just "around the corner)

Then look at the connections front. SCART, composite & S-Video connections have been around for years, yet now you've got component as well, and DVI & HDMI coming into the consumer space.

Ok, I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. HDTV refers to a whole broadcast system, not just to a way of displaying it. The original question asked about looking at a TV that would be compatible with tomorrow’s technology - i.e. HDTV broadcasts - which would mean a TV capable of natively displaying some kind of HTDV signal.

The average Joe might be surprised to find that sending £1000 (or even much, much more) on a TV now will very likely mean that they will NOT be able to see an HDTV signal in all it glorious enhanced quality when it finally comes - and that maybe very soon (in fact it is already here is some guise). So why not just buy something now this IS capable of showing these signals fully, yet is ALSO capable of showing today’s broadcasts. This would have been akin to buying a colour TV when black and white broadcasts where still the norm.

The problem I am finding is I think one that everyone is having - there is simply not enough information available. Some people say that there TV's are HDTV ready - but what form of HDTV? Will they be able to accept a multitude of signals or just one? What type of signal are we going to settle on in this country? Will it be 720p, 1080i or 1080p, or higher?

So in answer to your question “Who’s talking about the broadcast system?”; well I am! And that’s really the essence of the thread even though I am looking at the end component in a whole sequence of components.

I don’t think it would be unreasonable to think that an awful lot of home in the UK will keep the main TV for 10+ years, so knowing that HDTV is already out there (and has been for many years now, just not in the UK) it may be prevalent to look into this when buying now.

[cerebros]

Originally posted by swin70
Ok, I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. HDTV refers to a whole broadcast system, not just to a way of displaying it.

I'm fully aware of what HDTV is - but to receive HDTV, you need a set capable of receiving it - which comes down to do you buy one of the few offerings now (the JVC's in the realm of CRT, or the higher resolution plasma's), or wait for the next wave of HDTV capable CRT's, high resolution plasma's, RPTV's that may, or may not be "around the corner".

If you want i timescale, i very much doubt the main broadcast system in this country will go HDTV within 10 years, simply because broadcasters are content to fill the airwaves with zillion's of channels of poor programming and broadcast quality.

In the unlikely event that the government makes the analogue TV frequencies available for digital TV broadcasts after analogue shut-off (which is still at least 5 years away), I'd say it's doubtful that HDTV is going to be top of the list - it'll be more channels of crap.

The only way you're going to get HDTV broadcasts in the near to mid-term future will be from Euro1080. Other than that you're looking at imported D-Theatre D-VHS decks and tapes, and the high-definition next generation DVD formats (Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, whichever wins the format war) which will start appearing 2005/2006.

The problem I am finding is I think one that everyone is having - there is simply not enough information available. Some people say that there TV's are HDTV ready - but what form of HDTV? Will they be able to accept a multitude of signals or just one? What type of signal are we going to settle on in this country? Will it be 720p, 1080i or 1080p, or higher?

For the time being, JVC's HDTV CRT sets just accept 1080i from what has been posted on other threads. But then, from the data I've looked at on US sets, that's pretty much the case across the board on US direct view CRT sets. 720p seems to be supported amongst the flat panel sets, and they'll scale 1080i anayway.

If we do go HDTV in this country, I doubt we'll create a whole new format, especially as there'll be a large catalogue of US material in 1080i already. The most likely area of divergence will be in the way we connect our HDTV STB's to our HDTV sets - if encrutped signals sent over HDMI get cracked we might well see an new connection type forced on us - i doubt, however, that component output will be abandoned