Was LOTR in HD?

square_eyes · 14-09-2008, 9:12 AM

My son, whose eyes are infinitely better than mine, walked through as I was watching LOTR last night on Sky/Ch4HD and said that he was impressed by the high def picture -- and yet this movie wasn't flagged as HD in the EPG. Anyone else think this looked better than SD? Perhaps Ch4 got the flags wrong...

Simon

kenedin · 14-09-2008, 9:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by square_eyes

My son, whose eyes are infinitely better than mine, walked through as I was watching LOTR last night on Sky/Ch4HD and said that he was impressed by the high def picture -- and yet this movie wasn't flagged as HD in the EPG. Anyone else think this looked better than SD? Perhaps Ch4 got the flags wrong...

Simon

It wasn't in HD, although it was on C4HD. It was just upscaled.

square_eyes · 14-09-2008, 9:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenedin

It wasn't in HD, although it was on C4HD. It was just upscaled.

That's what I told him but he insisted the picture was better than his boxed DVD set of the trilogy.

The SD picture on the normal Ch4 looked pretty rough to me so the upscaling for HD somehow managed to improve the sharpness by several orders of magnitude.

Simon

mattclarkie · 14-09-2008, 9:59 AM

I checked it out to see what it looked like. Didn't look HD to me.

C4HD usually do a very good job of upscaling, so I don't know why you think the SD looks shody.

Professionally upscaled SD from a good SD master would be better than a highly compressed DVD upscaled.

square_eyes · 14-09-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattclarkie

C4HD usually do a very good job of upscaling, so I don't know why you think the SD looks shody.

The SkyCh 104 picture was no worse than other SD channels but it looked shoddy compared to the SkyCh 140 picture when switching between the two.

My limited experience of watching SD programmes which have been upscaled for HD has led me to believe that the upscaling makes the picture worse, generally. So if LOTR was indeed upscaled SD then it's a revelation to me since it was by some distance the best example I have ever seen (well, in the past month, anyway)... and greatly superior to the Ch 104 picture.

Simon

Starburst · 14-09-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by square_eyes

My limited experience of watching SD programmes which have been upscaled for HD has led me to believe that the upscaling makes the picture worse, generally. So if LOTR was indeed upscaled SD then it's a revelation to me since it was by some distance the best example I have ever seen (well, in the past month, anyway)... and greatly superior to the Ch 104 picture.

Simon

CH4 would have had a broadcast quality PAL master which is more or less butchered to product the results of what we see on a broadcast SD channel thanks to resolution and bitrate choices by the broadcaster. However for CH4HD the same PAL master is upscaled so you begin with a far superior source to create the upscaled HD when compared to upscaling SD or a DVD yourself.

You also have to factor in the differences between a master from a theatrical production compared to a TV production, the gap is closing but the vast majority of content on the market is only upto TV requirements.

SyStemDeMoN · 14-09-2008, 10:41 AM

ive seen the trilogy while staying with my brother in the states earlier this year, if was in HD u would've know, it really is that much better in HD! almost reference material.

*cutebabe01* · 14-09-2008, 4:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattclarkie

I checked it out to see what it looked like. Didn't look HD to me.

C4HD usually do a very good job of upscaling, so I don't know why you think the SD looks shody.

Professionally upscaled SD from a good SD master would be better than a highly compressed DVD upscaled.

how do you tell when on a HD channel if the program is true HD or upscalled? I never thought about this. Presumed because it was on CH4HD it was always HD??

square_eyes · 14-09-2008, 4:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutebabe01

how do you tell when on a HD channel if the program is true HD or upscalled?

True HD is flagged as "HD" in the info bar.

Simon

Jedi Monsoon · 14-09-2008, 4:36 PM

If it is in HD then it will have the HD tag in the information. I think Eurosport HD put that awfull Full HD dog on the actual picture.

*cutebabe01* · 14-09-2008, 4:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by square_eyes

True HD is flagged as "HD" in the info bar.

Simon

Is that in the bar where is says like DD for Dolby and R for a repeat etc?

kenedin · 14-09-2008, 4:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutebabe01

Is that in the bar where is says like DD for Dolby and R for a repeat etc?

Yes, either from pressing i from the programme itself, or from the EPG.

Martin J. · 14-09-2008, 5:05 PM

LOTR C4HD Sat 14th

FYI, if this thread mysteriously disappears, it will have gone to the same place as the above.

mattclarkie · 14-09-2008, 6:15 PM

The HD flag isn't correct all the time, even on Sky One HD they get it wrong. Sometimes shows in HD are not flagged HD.

However, C4HD show so little HD, that unless flagged HD it is 99.9% probability it is SD.

square_eyes · 14-09-2008, 6:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin J.

LOTR C4HD Sat 14th

FYI, if this thread mysteriously disappears, it will have gone to the same place as the above.

Thanks for the heads-up. Had I found that other thread I wouldn't have duplicated the discussion, so apologies -- especially as the topic now seems to be neither HD nor hardware related.

Simon

*cutebabe01* · 14-09-2008, 6:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattclarkie

The HD flag isn't correct all the time, even on Sky One HD they get it wrong. Sometimes shows in HD are not flagged HD.

However, C4HD show so little HD, that unless flagged HD it is 99.9% probability it is SD.

I apologise for this silly statement, but whats the point in having a HD channel if 99% of programs are upscaled and not HD?

Martin J. · 14-09-2008, 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by square_eyes

Thanks for the heads-up. Had I found that other thread I wouldn't have duplicated the discussion...

Not to worry, since this is the logical place to discuss channels broadcast via Sky HD, it's just that programme related messages have a habit of disappearing lately and hardly anyone is aware that the programming forum exists. Better to be prepared for what might happen than think your thread has been deleted.

mattclarkie · 14-09-2008, 6:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutebabe01

I apologise for this silly statement, but whats the point in having a HD channel if 99% of programs are upscaled and not HD?

Supposedly Sky gave C4 huge amounts of money so they could start the channel and boast an extra HD channel.

In reality C4 don't have the resources for more than a few imports.

Martin J. · 14-09-2008, 7:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattclarkie

In reality C4 don't have the resources for more than a few imports.

I think... could be wrong here... that Hollyoaks and Live from Abbey Road are the only home-grown HD productions from Channel 4.

BrianMc · 14-09-2008, 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattclarkie

Supposedly Sky gave C4 huge amounts of money so they could start the channel and boast an extra HD channel.

I think that Sky are providing C4 with free playout and uplink - but the actual (lack of!) HD Product is out of C4's pocket!

It is nice having proper broadcast quality upscaling though!

wednesday83 · 14-09-2008, 7:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianMc

I think that Sky are providing C4 with free playout and uplink - but the actual (lack of!) HD Product is out of C4's pocket!

It is nice having proper broadcast quality upscaling though!

Shouldnt all SD boadcasts be the same quality as C4 HD SD broadcasts tho. I think something should be done legally to make the channels produce far higher quality on SD channels.

Jonstone · 14-09-2008, 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wednesday83

Shouldnt all SD boadcasts be the same quality as C4 HD SD broadcasts tho. I think something should be done legally to make the channels produce far higher quality on SD channels.

Tbh if all the sd channels were of the quality they could be then the clamour for hd channels wouldn't be anything like as great as it is now.

Looking a few years ahead and you can well see the proliferation of hd channels leading to a reduction in quality as the broadcasters try to get by with using as little bandwidth as possible until you get to the stage where hd broadcasts will be little better than sd ones using a decent bitrate.

I hope it doesn't end up this way but I guess I am a born cynic

pj · 14-09-2008, 9:19 PM

if its in HD on ch4 there is a a CH4HD logo in the top left corner (that is unless they have dropped the logo) the next show i know of in HD as of now is "back to you" on tonight late sunday

wednesday83 · 14-09-2008, 9:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonstone

Tbh if all the sd channels were of the quality they could be then the clamour for hd channels wouldn't be anything like as great as it is now.

Looking a few years ahead and you can well see the proliferation of hd channels leading to a reduction in quality as the broadcasters try to get by with using as little bandwidth as possible until you get to the stage where hd broadcasts will be little better than sd ones using a decent bitrate.

I hope it doesn't end up this way but I guess I am a born cynic

Sadly i think you are right. it seems to be the way channels are moving now. Quality and bandwitth seems to be lowering accross pretty much all HD channels. The main reason HD looks good on some channels is simply due to SD channels looking so bad on LCD/Plasma tvs. Ive compared the picture of SD on my 42 inch Toshiba LCD with my 32 inch blackdiamond CRT and my 32inch blackdiamond wins hands down by a mile. Also the picture on my 32 inch CRT looks just as good if not better than many HD shows.

Martin J. · 15-09-2008, 1:02 AM

As has been explained countless times, the bandwidth used for Sky's HD channels has decreased without any loss of quality due to the implentation of newer, more efficient encoders. The exception is BBC HD, where there has been a noticeable quality drop, which may be in part due to the reduction in data rate.

However, there is always a limit to encoder efficiency as is illustrated by the horrendous standard of SD broadcasts across all platforms. MPEG-2 encoders are as mature as they're going to get, but nothing can be done if they're called upon to run at paultry data rates. There's no reason why SD can't look great, so we have to blame the broadcasters - all of them - for cutting corners.

mattclarkie · 15-09-2008, 8:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin J.

I think... could be wrong here... that Hollyoaks and Live from Abbey Road are the only home-grown HD productions from Channel 4.

Hollyoaks is, but AFAIK it was in HD because the production company had made the choice, rather than C4 demanding it.

mattclarkie · 15-09-2008, 8:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj

if its in HD on ch4 there is a a CH4HD logo in the top left corner (that is unless they have dropped the logo) the next show i know of in HD as of now is "back to you" on tonight late sunday

The C4HD logo is permanently on screen. Unlike Sky One HD it doesn't drop the HD for SD, it is the same logo constantly.

Back to you is soon to finish, so that will be one less HD show.

mattclarkie · 15-09-2008, 8:17 AM

Sky need to move all channels over to MPEG4. MPEG2 should be dropped ASAP so that we can gain more space for HD and also gain improved SD.

But the chances of that are slim to zero.

Bachstrad · 15-09-2008, 9:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wednesday83

Sadly i think you are right. it seems to be the way channels are moving now. Quality and bandwitth seems to be lowering accross pretty much all HD channels. The main reason HD looks good on some channels is simply due to SD channels looking so bad on LCD/Plasma tvs. Ive compared the picture of SD on my 42 inch Toshiba LCD with my 32 inch blackdiamond CRT and my 32inch blackdiamond wins hands down by a mile. Also the picture on my 32 inch CRT looks just as good if not better than many HD shows.

Amazing, why didn't I notice that?

576i on a CRT has to be better than 1080i on a 1920 x 1080 LCD!

ATB

Max

mattclarkie · 15-09-2008, 9:49 AM

On a small CRT you can't see the imperfections that are present on a 40"+ TV.