[Ron240]

I set my PVR to record Queen Of The Dammed late last night on ITV1(STV to be precise). I have never seen it before,but despite the bad reviews it received,i thought i would give it a go.
I was checking the recording this morning...and was horrified to see there was a guy on screen,bottom right corner,signing for the deaf. I fast forwarded through the whole film and he was there for the duration!
What the hell was this for?? It has completely ruined my recording,and i will not be watching it now.

Did anybody else notice this,or have experience of it ever happening?

Curiously enough....i was also recording the film that was on directly after it - Quatermass And The Pit....and that was absolutely fine,im glad to say.

[Starburst]

Broadcasters have to supply a certain amount of content with sign language, obviously as not to annoy the primetime audience they tend to lump all this signed content into the wee hours which really means it's intended audience really need a recording device.

The EPG on SKY does indicate when a programme has sign language (SL), not entirely sure about the Freeview or VM EPG's.
The movie has been on TV before which is perhaps why the late night screening and use of SL, a premiere would not be treated in the same manner.

[Pincho Paxton]

Originally Posted by Ron240

I set my PVR to record Queen Of The Dammed late last night on ITV1(STV to be precise). I have never seen it before,but despite the bad reviews it received,i thought i would give it a go.
I was checking the recording this morning...and was horrified to see there was a guy on screen,bottom right corner,signing for the deaf. I fast forwarded through the whole film and he was there for the duration!
What the hell was this for?? It has completely ruined my recording,and i will not be watching it now.

Did anybody else notice this,or have experience of it ever happening?

Curiously enough....i was also recording the film that was on directly after it - Quatermass And The Pit....and that was absolutely fine,im glad to say.

Well, I was waiting for Quatermass.. (Which really needs a remake!!!), and I saw the Sign Language before it. The thing that was perplexing me was that the signer was wearing a bright pink shirt! Now, if I was deaf, and wanted to watch a Vampire Horror I would hope (seriously) that the signer would dress for the part. He should dress as a vampire!!!

[kemp]

I haven't experienced any such thing but i think what stardust is saying might be true..

[Ron240]

Originally Posted by Starburst

Broadcasters have to supply a certain amount of content with sign language, obviously as not to annoy the primetime audience they tend to lump all this signed content into the wee hours.

Yes...i could certainly believe that,but its just a pity i found it out in this manner.
I have seen this signing on the Hollyoaks omnibus on Sunday afternoon,but this is the first time i have personally seen it at night.

My Freeview EPG does not give this information as far as i am aware,but i will certainly pay special attention for it in future.

Originally Posted by Pincho Paxton

Well, I was waiting for Quatermass.. (Which really needs a remake!!!), and I saw the Sign Language before it. The thing that was perplexing me was that the signer was wearing a bright pink shirt! Now, if I was deaf, and wanted to watch a Vampire Horror I would hope (seriously) that the signer would dress for the part. He should dress as a vampire!!!

yeah,he did kind of stick out like a sore thumb...so you will understand perfectly why it made it unwatchable for me.

Yep...would love to see an up to date remake of that particular Quatermass.

[DVD-Man]

Queen of the Damned is awful Ron, thank the Signer for sparing you the horror!

Liam

[Ron240]

Originally Posted by DVD-Man

thank the Signer for sparing you the horror!

Doubly so then Liam.

Like i said,i had heard it wasnt up to much,so i wont be making any effort to go looking for it now.

[nwgarratt]

I thought it would be possible to have the signing as interactive. I turn all interactive off on my PVR's so I don't get any of the "push the red button" rubbish in the corner. It does mean I don't get digital teletext but I can turn it on for the few minutes I use it.

[Ron240]

Originally Posted by nwgarratt

I thought it would be possible to have the signing as interactive.

I would have thought that myself...but you cannot seem to turn off the guy in the corner unfortunately.

[Starburst]

Originally Posted by nwgarratt

I thought it would be possible to have the signing as interactive. I turn all interactive off on my PVR's so I don't get any of the "push the red button" rubbish in the corner. It does mean I don't get digital teletext but I can turn it on for the few minutes I use it.

The graphics used for interactive stuff don't have the resolution to create something of the required complexity nor does any STB have the processing power to do so I suspect. The obvious solution would be to have a secondary data stream which would then be PIP but that's impossible for a single tuner satellite box (well not impossible buy impractical) but given the bandwidth up in orbit why the major UK broadcasters don't have at least one dedicated signed channel should be the question.
It's not as if they restrain themselves with time shifted channels is it?

[Goooner]

Like others, I can see no reason for not having this accesible via the red button, if they can have half a doxen different feeds availble on Sky for football, why not one with SL.

Failing that, if it's Government legislation, then why not set up one dedicate channel, where a slection of programmes from all the different broadcasters are shown with SL?

[Starburst]

Originally Posted by Goooner

Like others, I can see no reason for not having this accesible via the red button, if they can have half a doxen different feeds availble on Sky for football, why not one with SL.

Failing that, if it's Government legislation, then why not set up one dedicate channel, where a slection of programmes from all the different broadcasters are shown with SL?

Only a handful of channels would be able to do this since in the footy example a whole transponder is used by a single broadcaster which allows to switch between multipule feeds. It would very difficult for the current single tuner STB to display two feeds one PIP from the same transponder (the firmware for footy first and F1+ before that is very specific) and impossible from a different transponder. Economies of scale would also impact due to many transponders having upto 8 channels each of which could need it's own SL video stream and therefore you would probably have to sacrifice a couple of the channels to make room for the SL data.
Now if the STB was able to generate in real time a high res graphic then it would be a doodle to supple the SL data but we are years away from a STB which could generate the level of graphics to rival a real person.


It would far more practical for the BBC, ITV, CH4 and Five each to have a national SL channel on Satellite and Cable, perhaps even Freeview. If this was the case then pressure from the relevant groups would convince SKY, VM and some of the other large broadcasters to follow suit.

[Torpedo]

Originally Posted by Ron240

I was checking the recording this morning...and was horrified to see there was a guy on screen,bottom right corner,signing for the deaf. I fast forwarded through the whole film and he was there for the duration!

Sorry, but this bit made me laugh
Why would they turn it off halfway thru?
It would be like turning the sound off halfway thru a film.

And yes, I've seen it done loads of times, late at night. And yes it's annoying.

[PoochJD]

Hi,

I agree that having many late-night shows/films with the HOH (Hard Of Hearing/Sign Language) person is annoying for those of us who don't require such a service, but the fact does remain that a significant amount of the population are deaf or HOH, and their ability to view TV is limited to a very small, niche set of programmes at stupid hours of the night!

Yes, I appreciate the fact that most films and shows have subtitling, but not all deaf/HOH want them, and not all deaf/HOH viewers like them, preferring a sign-language reader instead.

In an ideal scenario, all programmes would be transmitted once, in plain formats, and a second transmission would be repeated, but have sign-language. Alternatively, all shows would have an optional red-button signing person on every show/movie transmitted, but the technology to apply that is both expensive and time consuming. And don't forget, there's not that many people who are capable of real-time signing, available for TV channels to choose from in the first place. It's not just about someone being able to sign effectively, but about being able to explain everything else (sound effects, who is speaking if the person is off-camera or out-of-sight, movements, etc) and being able to do this very quickly and accurately!

On top of this, unlike English langauge, where one word means the same in every part of the UK, Sign Language has regional and localised "dialects". So one hand gesture in sign-language that may mean "river" or "walking fast" may mean nothing at all or something very different to a viewer in another part of the country! Even simple things like describing the weather, your name et al can be quite complex for Sign Language users to actually sign! Try watching a single episode of a modern US drama show, like for example "The West Wing" which is exceedingly dialogue-heavy, and then look at the difference between the Teletext subtitles, and what the characters actually say. Now imagine, having to accurately sign the dialogue as well. It's an exhausting and painstaking process, that has to be pre-recorded for the most part, because signing live causes an inordinate amount of problems. (Look at a subtitled or signed news bulletin, and you'll see what I mean.)

With many DVD's still NOT including English subtitles on DVD's (which is obscene, bearing in mind the fairly minimal amount of space that is needed to be put aside on a standard DVD disc), TV channels try to offer some signing shows, but these are very few and far between. Most of the time, it's for stuff that has aired once, or sometimes even twice, previously, untainted.

Ultimately, all I can say is, that no matter how irritated non-deaf and non-HOH viewers may be about having some shows/movies ruined by the "little man/woman in the corner waaving their hands about", at least you get to see 99% of all other TV untainted, at proper times of the day. If you couldn't read subtitles, and needed Signed programmes, you'd be missing out on almost every show on TV because your needs weren't being catered for!

Hope that helps you all understand why Sign Language TV is the way it is.


Pooch

[Garrett]

I remember them showing the first screenings of some of the Dead Zone and I think I commented on it at the time why was it not subtitled. Don’t know if modern HD recorders have the facility but my old video had the option of bringing up subtitles on recorded material.

As Pooch infers I rather have good hearing and have to put up with the occasional man in the corner than be on the deaf side. Mind you it wouldn’t be bad if the had a fit bird doing the signing, but then nobody would watch the film at all.

As to Queen Of The Dammed I did not mind it, Id neither say it’s a great film or one of the worst made it worth a look sometime to make your own mind up.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by Pincho Paxton

Well, I was waiting for Quatermass.. (Which really needs a remake!!!), and I saw the Sign Language before it. The thing that was perplexing me was that the signer was wearing a bright pink shirt! Now, if I was deaf, and wanted to watch a Vampire Horror I would hope (seriously) that the signer would dress for the part. He should dress as a vampire!!!

If your referring to the Hammer version of Quatermass and the Pit (4 different Quatermass storys have been made) if you can appreciate it the TV versions out in glorious grainy B&W and I found far scarier than the film.

[Pincho Paxton]

Originally Posted by Garrett

If your referring to the Hammer version of Quatermass and the Pit (4 different Quatermass storys have been made) if you can appreciate it the TV versions out in glorious grainy B&W and I found far scarier than the film.

Quatermass and the Pit.. I just think it's perfect for a remake. The dialogue was rediculous, the scratches on the metal object dissapeared, the final creatures did not match any of the descriptions, and were made from paper mache. It's cheap to remake, even I could probably afford it, but with more cash it could look really good.

[Goooner]

Originally Posted by PoochJD

Hi,

I agree that having many late-night shows/films with the HOH (Hard Of Hearing/Sign Language) person is annoying for those of us who don't require such a service, but the fact does remain that a significant amount of the population are deaf or HOH, and their ability to view TV is limited to a very small, niche set of programmes at stupid hours of the night!

I'd like to know just how significant an amount of the population do actually need/use SL. 10%, less than 1%?

If there really is such a significant amount, I think they should have SL on prime-time programmes too (see how many people complain then!)

Supposing there are for example a "significant amount of the population" that are train spotters, should they not be catered for too? Can't they have their own programmes in the middle of the night?

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I fail to see why this cannot be made optional via the red button. There is surely enough bandwidth on the satellite/Freeview platform to allow at least on signed channel, then those that want it have easy access to it and those that don't don't have their viewing spoiled.

As to the point Torpedo made about the signer never going away, on some programmes they do. We watched one of the signed repeats of Oliver just before Christmas and during any sustained quiet section the programmed reverted to full screen (it had shrunk, so that the bottom and right side of the screen were just a background and yet the signer still managed to obscure the programme) and the signer went away.

[unique]

what exactly is it that the hard of hearing have against subtitles and prefer sign language? i would have thought subtitles would be preferable as they are less distracting, particularly when watching a movie or drama. different story for news or weather perhaps. i thought quite a large percentage of tv was subtitled via teletext, which is good because it can be turned on and off as desired

personally i dislike subtitles such as on foreign films. if i wanted to read a movie i'd buy the book

i'm surprised channel five didn't think of topless signing, like that cable channel had topless darks and naked news. if there was a way to teach the public in sign language, then i couldn't think of a better way!

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by Goooner

I'd like to know just how significant an amount of the population do actually need/use SL. 10%, less than 1%?

If there really is such a significant amount, I think they should have SL on prime-time programmes too (see how many people complain then!)

Supposing there are for example a "significant amount of the population" that are train spotters, should they not be catered for too? Can't they have their own programmes in the middle of the night?

There’s a big difference between catering for people with disabilities than somebody having a off beat hobby.
It’s a bit like saying the national health caters for the sick so why not hobby’s.

But can someone clarify hard at hearing? Is this sound is distorted or they hear sounds but at a low level, if the latter could they just turn the volume up?

[Pincho Paxton]

Watched Catherine Tate show last night with sign language, I was waiting to see what the guy did during all of the swearing etc. It was quite funny during the grandma sequence.

[nwgarratt]

Originally Posted by Garrett

I remember them showing the first screenings of some of the Dead Zone and I think I commented on it at the time why was it not subtitled. Don’t know if modern HD recorders have the facility but my old video had the option of bringing up subtitles on recorded material.

I also commented about DZ. They put it on early evening but cut the episodes to shreds. They then decided to start again having it uncut but after midnight and with the signing. It what made me start buying the series on DVD.

PVR's capture any subtitles at the same time while recording.

[PoochJD]

Hi,

Right, let's get some facts shown here.

1 - In a perfect world, we'd all be catered for, on TV, on all channels, with all of our favourite programming, and with/without signing/subtitles/no DOG's, etc, etc. Everyone would be happy. Everyone could chose whether they wanted or didn't watn subtitles, signing, etc. But, this is not a perfect world, and so we all have to make do with what we've got. It's not the best solution, but there it is.

2 - Hard of Hearing (HOH), refers to people who may be deaf in one ear, partially deaf, or simply have some other audio impairment that means that simply turning up the volume on a show doesn't work for them. Medical issues like tinnitus (a permanent ringing or other annoying sound, that makes hearing very difficult) is one such condition that springs immediately to mind.

3 - In Britain there are approximately 66 million people living here. Of those 66 million, recent statistics from various deaf/HOH/disability charities state that there are roughly 8 million people who have some kind of sound or hearing problem. (This figure includes both adults and children!) And about 1.5million of those original 8 million, use/prefer or require sign-language!

So, bearing in mind how little TV programming is actually signed on terrestrial and digital TV, that's about 1.5 million people that may like to watch TV, but for one reason or another can't, or find it difficult to do so! That's a lot of people in my book, and this is why there are more programmes and films being Signed on TV.

In all honesty, those of you (including myself) who don't need sign language, should be grateful that we can choose to see 99% of all other TV output, untainted. If you are deaf/HOH, and do require sign language, your choice of programming is very, very, VERY limited. Most of the TV channels don't sign programmes at all, and those channels that do, only do so late-at-night on older shows/films that have been on before. The BBC does a late-night strand of programmes that have recently been aired from the previous week, with sign language and/or on-screen subtitles, four nights a week, which is to try and improve the amount of programming available to deaf/HOH viewers!

However, for almost every other major show/movie, deaf and HOH audiences are restricted to subtitles (which aren't often very good, or very accurate via Teletext or Ceefax) or subtitles on DVD's.

Ultimately, if you are one part of the 99% of the population that doesn't need sign language, be grateful! At least you get to see most stuff on TV, when it's new, without any fuss! The 1.5 million who can't, have to deal with just the odd programme or movie, once in a blue-moon!


Pooch

[Pincho Paxton]

Another thing about the sign language is that the guy does all of the actions after the event. First the actors do their speech, then the guy does the actions. That's not very good in my opinion. They could record all of the guys actions, and then edit him back in time to the exact moment of the events, otherwise subtitles are actually much better than sign language.

[Shady]

Originally Posted by Ron240

...and was horrified to see there was a guy on screen,bottom right corner,signing for the deaf.

...was he in hi-deaf though...

(I'll get me coat)

[aprout]

Channel Four showed the terrestrial premier of the Coen Bros' black & white film The Man Who Wasn't There a year or two back at 2 in the morning with the signing man (in full colour) taking up a third of the screen. It was completely unwatchable.

I wouldn't have minded so much if it was a film that had been shown loads of times before, but it was the frickin' terrestrial premiere!

& as far as I'm aware, it's not been shown on terrestrial tv since. Gits.

[PoochJD]

Hi Pincho, Aprout

Pincho:

Originally Posted by Pincho Paxton

Another thing about the sign language is that the guy does all of the actions after the event. First the actors do their speech, then the guy does the actions. That's not very good in my opinion.

True, it's not ideal, but it's the cheapest option for the channels! Basically, the sign-language men and women, don't work for specific channels, but are hired to do their work.

A channel hires a Sign Language man/woman. The signer is then placed in a studio with a recording of the broadcast of the programme to be shown with sign language over the top of it, and someone records the man/woman signing, as the signer themselves watch the programme on their little monitor. The recording of the signer is then broadcast over the top of the original broadcast live, at the required transmission time. It's all very complex.

Some signers perform "live", which - again - explains why their signing is out-of-sync with the broadcast itself, because they are having to interpret it there-and-then, probably not having seen the film/show before. With modern shows and movies becoming more complex in terms of the number of cast members, the faster plotlines and the amount of dialogue, "signing" is truly an artform you have to admire, especially if trying to translate a film with lots of big special effects.


Aprout:
Channels have to broadcast not only a certain percentage of signed programming, but some of the more "niche" premieres must also be signed too. Hence, why the Coen Bros. film you mentioned, was signed, and shown at 2am on a Thursday morning, when there were likely to be minimal viewers. I know it's annoying, but channels can be fined, if they don't adhere to the strict rules set down not only by OFCOM about the amount of Signed material on TV, but also by law too!


Pooch

[Pincho Paxton]

If you can green screen someone into a program live, you can also green screen them into a program pre-recorded.. it's the same technique. So you can then sync them properly. Obviously 'The News' has to be done live.

[Joe Pineapples]

Recorded 'the natural world - a year on dartmoor' recently - this was broadcast at 9pm, and as i found out later, also had SL. Afraid i cannot get on with the distraction, so it went unwatched

[Goooner]

I was reading in the paper yesterday (The Sun, in Jeremy Clarksons column) so how much truth there is in it, I don't know

Apparently the BBC are setting up a channel specifically for Gaelic speaking Scots, now if this is indeed true, why can't the same be done with a signing channel?