[kav]

Okay, so I am years behind everyone else, but I've had a good mooch around here and can't find any discussion over how the greatest tv series I've ever watched ended. I know 2007 will probably be phoning me shortly asking for its discussion back, but what the hell, here goes anyway.

I watched the last two episodes back to back last night and was on the edge of my seat the whole time, knowing that any or all of the central characters would be killed at any moment. The trademark Soprano's balancing act - on one hand, the pressure felt by Tony, frightened for his life and that of his family; on the other, the surreal comedy of Paulie's relationship with the orange cat - had me glued to the screen. Not to mention the direction being handled in such a calm, assured manner - so subtly ratcheting up the tension all the way through the episode, you're practically bursting by the end waiting for something to happen.

The meat of the story - did he or didn't he die? I know it's intentionally left open-ended, so any comments can only be speculation, but to me all the signs point to Tony being whacked. There's the flashback to him and Bobby Bacala on the boat, discussing how when it happens, you don't even know it - to me this ties in perfectly with the way the screen abruptly turns black. Then there's all the Catholic/religious stuff - the three family members eating onion rings like Holy Communion (each framed in a separate shot, each eating in the same way); the long shot of Tony framed like the painting The Last Supper; Tony talking about his Judas, Carlo. Also, the Godfather link - Tony's favourite scene being Michael Corleone killing Solozzo and the police chief - and the way the suspicious-looking "man in member's jacket" goes to the toilet just before Meadow approaches the restaurant. The angle that Tony's sitting at means that the guy could emerge from the toilets and shoot him without Tony knowing a thing about it.

Anyway, I realise I'm not saying anything new here - it's been discussed to death on other forums. However, I thought it would be interesting to get some thoughts from my fellow AVFers.

[saj1d]

Originally Posted by kavanf1

The trademark Soprano's balancing act - on one hand, the pressure felt by Tony, frightened for his life and that of his family; on the other, the surreal comedy of Paulie's relationship with the orange cat

I started watching the whole Sopranos show from the very start when it first hit our screens back in 1999,i expected a different ending to what i expected however it raised some very interesting questions to it's main and central character
Tony Soprano.The ending in the cafe/diner could have many different interpretations for the viewer but i think it was how more importantly Tony Soprano saw his life and his perception of this world he lived in had so many contradictions and the code he swore by in the brotherhood
would eventually be his downfall.

BADA BING!

[andy1249]

There are many interpretations to the ending , my favourite one is the Godfather tribute ... basically the ending sets up a lead in to the first Godfather film if you transpose the characters , Anthony ready to go into the army , Michael just coming out of the army at the start of the godfather .... and so on.

[Pezerinno]

I gotta chime in and say I bloody miss The Sopranos! That picture has just brought back all the memories. I think Tony was whacked at the end.

[pmc]

My first reaction was that it was just the end. We had followed these characters for many years and we simply stopped following them and they went off and carried on with their lives. But the more I thought about it the more it became obvious that Tony was whacked.

Either way its one of the best endings ever. Simply because it was so unexpected, caused so much controversy and is open to so much interpretation. Like the OP I was falling of the edge off my seat in the last 15 minutes. I kept glancing at the clock to see how long was left, and thinking 'how is it going to end'. To ratchet up that level of tension, then give us the ending they did, was magnificent writing.

[Hillskill]

I have no theory or interpretation only that I loved it. No need to divide a fanbase by committing to an ending.....just let everyone reach their own conclusion. Genius !

The biggest thing for me was working out what I could watch to follow such an amazing series. Took me 18months to discover the Wire and I highly recommend it as the next long running series you get into Frank

[kav]

Originally Posted by Hillskill

I have no theory or interpretation only that I loved it. No need to divide a fanbase by committing to an ending.....just let everyone reach their own conclusion. Genius !

The biggest thing for me was working out what I could watch to follow such an amazing series. Took me 18months to discover the Wire and I highly recommend it as the next long running series you get into Frank

Funny you should say that mate as my good friend Paulie also recommended The Wire, saying it's the only series he's watched that topped The Sopranos. It seems a decent price on Amazon for the box set, will prob pick it up this month.

Re dividing the fanbase - I think this ending has done that anyway, judging by the heated exchanges I have read on other sites! I only found out in the last couple of days that there are whole factions of people known as "deathers" or "lifers" depending on how they perceive the end.

It really was a brilliant way to end though.

[Hillskill]

Originally Posted by kavanf1

Funny you should say that mate as my good friend Paulie also recommended The Wire, saying it's the only series he's watched that topped The Sopranos. It seems a decent price on Amazon for the box set, will prob pick it up this month.

Paulie is spot on IMHO.

[PaulieBeef]

Originally Posted by Hillskill

Paulie is spot on IMHO.

Shhheeeeeeeiiiittttt! You know that's right!

[eiren]

He gets killed.

At the start of the episode on the 'previously' catch up they deliberately play back the clip where he says about just before you die everything fades to black.

Then at the end it's a fade to black silence.

I know it's supposed to be open to interpretation, but I think it's the obvious answer... people just don't want to accept Tony gets killed in the end.

[kav]

Originally Posted by eiren

He gets killed.

At the start of the episode on the 'previously' catch up they deliberately play back the clip where he says about just before you die everything fades to black.

Then at the end it's a fade to black silence.

I know it's supposed to be open to interpretation, but I think it's the obvious answer... people just don't want to accept Tony gets killed in the end.

Is the "previously..." thing only done on the tv version? I ask because I've got the series on DVD and it's never had a "previously on The Sopranos" part at the start.

Fully agree with you though - all the signs are there, even though I didn't want them to be. Tony Soprano was a scumbag who I'd be terrified to know in real life, but it's a testament to Gandolfini's acting ability that I still felt a lot of empathy for him.

[kav]

Originally Posted by pmc

To ratchet up that level of tension, then give us the ending they did, was magnificent writing.

After the screen went black, I sat there in silence through the full credits, stunned, trying to comprehend it. Magnificent is indeed the right word.

[mossym]

i have a different take, can't remember if i came up with it or read it somewhere but it works for me, the black is just an end that leaves it open for you to decide how it finishes...it doesn't eman anything, by not putting an end chase just left it for everyone to allow tony soprano to finish they way they wanted, if you wanted him dead, bam he's dead, if you think he grew old and ended up trying to kill his grandchildren as seems to run in his family then bada bing that happened instead....

might be a bit of a cop out, but it works for me....

and i agree with the sentiment above mourning the loss of the sopranos as a show..i really do miss it...

[JayCee]

Originally Posted by Hillskill

The biggest thing for me was working out what I could watch to follow such an amazing series. Took me 18months to discover the Wire and I highly recommend it as the next long running series you get into Frank

Trouble is...there's nothing else I can think of that comes anywhere near these two.

I enjoy Dexter and Mad Men...they're not in the same league but they're the best of a bad bunch...I see CH4 are showing Generation Kill from Wed...is it to be recommended?

[Hillskill]

Originally Posted by JayCee

Trouble is...there's nothing else I can think of that comes anywhere near these two.

I enjoy Dexter and Mad Men...they're not in the same league but they're the best of a bad bunch...I see CH4 are showing Generation Kill from Wed...is it to be recommended?

I agree. Such hard acts to follow. True Blood and Mad Men never quite had the same magic. I am big fan of Dexter but the next season needs to really add some variety to what has been 3 very similar seasons so far. Generation Kill is very good but I don't think it was ever intended to be as deep as story as Sopranos or The Wire.
The ending of the Sopranos left me literally numb, I loved the show in its entirety and I loved the ending. The Wire was even better as it more a social commentary then focused on any 1 group of characters. The finale to The Wire is television writing at its finest. I have now started The Shield and just finished Season 1 and I'm enjoying it immensely. All signs point to this being a truly excellent show.

[pmc]

Originally Posted by JayCee

Trouble is...there's nothing else I can think of that comes anywhere near these two.

I enjoy Dexter and Mad Men...they're not in the same league but they're the best of a bad bunch...I see CH4 are showing Generation Kill from Wed...is it to be recommended?

Generation Kill is very good. As Hillskill mentioned, The Shield is excellent if you haven't seen it(and another one with a great ending). Also try Brotherhood, for a Sopranos vibe. Not quite the same class, but what is.

[Stockholm]

I finished The Sopranos last night with a tear in my eye. Can't believe Tony is dead and Silvio is probably never going to recover from his coma. Aside from Tony, I really wanted Sil to be alive at the very end. David Chase certainly ended the show in a really depressing manner.

I realise that some people still contest the nature of the final scene, but for me it was clear that Tony was whacked at the end.

What became of his family? AJ was already mentally ill before his dad was whacked in front of him, so what's he going to be like following something like that? Probably committed suicide.

Carmela was materialistic and relied on Tony's wealth to satisfy her wants and desires. She also realised that she wouldn't really be provided for if Tony died or went to prison given her experience when Tony had been shot by Junior.

I think Meadow would be the best equipped to cope with life without her dad. I'm sure it drove her on in her career and in life in general.

Who ordered the hit on Tony? Butchie? Or was it the same hit that Phil ordered on Tony? If it was then why didn't Butchie and the rest of the NY crew call it off once they made a deal with Tony?

The cat gave me a good laugh. That cat was definitely meant to represent Adrianna or Christopher, but probably Ade.

Paulie is a survivor, isn't he!

[bosque]

I'm sure the guy who created the show said Tony wasn't killed after the screen went blank.

[andywylde]

I miss this show a lot. I can go back and re-watch the whole thing over and over and have done a few times. When i first saw the ending i was distraught lol But you know, whaddya gonna do?

[Stockholm]

Did he? Will need to check that out. It seems to contradict other statements he's made. Perhaps he gets a kick from prolonging the meaning behind the final scene?

I watched the final episodes more or less back to back and I noticed a lot of foreshadowing in the episodes leading up to the finale. As soon as the bell rang and the screen went dark, and remained dark with no sound for what seemed like a long time, I knew Tony had been whacked and we were seeing and hearing nothing because he was dead.

It's a brilliant ending. Indeed, it's probably the best ending I've seen of any show. I only wish that we got to see the short and long-term reaction of AJ, Carmela and Meadow to Tony's death.

Aside from the contentious final scene, I really disliked the way Dr Melfi told Tony to beat it because of the idiotic comments made by that leech Elliot. Up until that point I'd quite liked Dr Melfi, but after her lame dismissal of Tony as a patient I went right off her.

Will look into that info, bosque, although I'd be very surprised if Tony didn't get whacked at the end. The ending is definitive for me.

[AML]

I remember hearing talk of a movie? Did anything materialize?

If not then I guess it would mean that he is in fact dead.

[andywylde]

This site is great reading for a Sopranos fan, it gives fantastic insight and understanding to the ending. A long read for sure, but worth it.

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[Hillskill]

Originally Posted by AML

I remember hearing talk of a movie? Did anything materialize?

If not then I guess it would mean that he is in fact dead.

Total jive. A big part of the Sopranos getting wound down was Gandolphinis wage demands not to mention David Chase believing it had run its course. The chance of a movie starts and stops with Chase himself and has absolutely no bearing on what is still a completely inconclusive end of the show.

IMHO you could completely inteprate that whole final sequence as a Tonys growing paranoia. The tension builds and builds like no show I have seen before. If any of you were like me then it was at that point you realised just how attached to the characters you had gotten.

[mossym]

Originally Posted by Hillskill

IMHO you could completely inteprate that whole final sequence as a Tonys growing paranoia. The tension builds and builds like no show I have seen before. If any of you were like me then it was at that point you realised just how attached to the characters you had gotten.

and just as impressively it builds the same tension on rewatches.

it's a beautiful ending, totally open to interpretation. some like stockholm are convinced he's dead, others he's till alive.

i've likened it before to being like the choose your own adventure books from years ago, except this is choose what happened tony..

well done DC

[leicester_boy]

Originally Posted by Hillskill

Total jive. A big part of the Sopranos getting wound down was Gandolphinis wage demands not to mention David Chase believing it had run its course. The chance of a movie starts and stops with Chase himself and has absolutely no bearing on what is still a completely inconclusive end of the show.

IMHO you could completely inteprate that whole final sequence as a Tonys growing paranoia. The tension builds and builds like no show I have seen before. If any of you were like me then it was at that point you realised just how attached to the characters you had gotten.

I went on the sopranos tour in new york/ new jersey and the guy who did that said gandolfini only asked for excessive wage demands because he felt other cast members were not getting paid enough or paid unfairly so he would invite them into his trailer and hand over wads of cash.

The tour was amazing by the way and got to meet vito (fat gay one) got to go in the bing and the diner at the end and see where satriales stood and loads of other places.

[mrapbp]

I dont think he died at all.

To me the ending was perfect in that life just goes on. We got a slice of his world/life and his life carries on (or not at some point!) but we stop watching.

I do think it can be interpreted in many ways which is why I guess they ended it this way. You take what you want away from the show/experience and you decide how it ended.

Stunning show and I have now seen it twice and it was superb the first time and even better the second (only show I have ever watched more than once!)

[Stockholm]

The way the final scene is constructed, in addition to the cut to black and the abrupt cessation of Journey's Don't Stop Believing, satisfies me that Tony was killed instantly in the diner.

The foreshadowing supports that idea, although David Chase was known to toy with his audience concerning red herrings during The Sopranos' run.

The discussion between Bobby and Tony on the boat about the fact that you'd never hear (be aware, I guess) of your own death under certain circumstances is an example of foreshadowing. Silvio also made the same comment during one of the earlier seasons. And the scene with Silvio in the restaurant in season six, during which the man he is with is assassinated and the sound cuts off in an abrupt manner while Silvio is sprayed in a fine mist of the guy's blood, speaks to the final scene where Tony is killed.

David Chase makes ambiguous comments re. the final scene in the diner. I have a theory about why he does this.

Can those of you who don't believe in the assassination theory tell me what they think the sudden cut - not fade - to black and the cessation of sound is meant to represent.

Chase originally wanted the dramatic cut to black to last for the entirety of the time that it would normally take for the credits to finish, but this was prohibited by whoever is responsible for these kind of decisions.

Thanks

[mossym]

Originally Posted by Stockholm

satisfies me

exactly. believe what you want, if you think he died, then for you he died. if others think he didn't, then for them he didn't

[johny1980]

Good thread guys

Not in the same league but im enjoying brotherhood at the moment

season 2 has started on fx

[kav]

Originally Posted by Stockholm

The way the final scene is constructed, in addition to the cut to black and the abrupt cessation of Journey's Don't Stop Believing, satisfies me that Tony was killed instantly in the diner.

The foreshadowing supports that idea, although David Chase was known to toy with his audience concerning red herrings during The Sopranos' run.

The discussion between Bobby and Tony on the boat about the fact that you'd never hear (be aware, I guess) of your own death under certain circumstances is an example of foreshadowing. Silvio also made the same comment during one of the earlier seasons. And the scene with Silvio in the restaurant in season six, during which the man he is with is assassinated and the sound cuts off in an abrupt manner while Silvio is sprayed in a fine mist of the guy's blood, speaks to the final scene where Tony is killed.

David Chase makes ambiguous comments re. the final scene in the diner. I have a theory about why he does this.

Can those of you who don't believe in the assassination theory tell me what they think the sudden cut - not fade - to black and the cessation of sound is meant to represent.

Chase originally wanted the dramatic cut to black to last for the entirety of the time that it would normally take for the credits to finish, but this was prohibited by whoever is responsible for these kind of decisions.

Thanks

That's pretty much my take on it too. Obviously it's left open to interpretation but IMO there are a lot more signs pointing to him being killed than the "...and life goes on" interpretation. The whole of series 6 shows his life crumbling around him as he ends up with hardly anyone close to him left for support. Even if he did survive, with the state the Soprano family was in at that point, there would not be a whole lot left for him.