[The News Bot]

In an exclusive interview with the Wall Street Journal, Toshiba’s chief executive Atsutoshi Nishida says he knew the HD DVD game was over as soon as Warner pulled the plug on the format. “I didn’t think we stood a chance after Warner left us because it meant HD DVD would have just 20 per cent [...]
More...

[SeanT]

Utter bull, crap in, crap out, upscaled DVD will never match the quality of HD....

[Crovon]

As gutted as I was that HD-DVD lost, even I find that last bit complete and utter garbage.

Why cant they just do the decent thing and make a cheap dual format player?
They would sell by the bucket load, and Toshiba could at least save some face. Coming out with statements like this is just ridiculous.

'we lied to you about the quality of HD DVD and got you to pay a premium price for them, we can actually get the same results with upscaled DVD - with our new players'

[Baxtor]

Agreed, utter tosh, no way a upscaled DVD can match Blu-Ray.
Especially on the larger plasmas and projection screens.

[SparkShot]

Toshiba is a bit of a joke at the moment and those comments just rearffirm that view.

[ROne]

On a 21" set maybe, if you're sat in the garden.

[AgentCool]

I'm guessing Nishida is referring to the alleged magical abilities of the Cell Broadband Engine which Toshiba are apparently going to start putting into their home cinema equipment (their TVs at least). Still, if the PS3 can't make SD look HD with the same type of processor then what chance have Toshiba got of pulling it off? As is always the case with these things, you can't polish a turd.

[thomo14]

What a load of rubbish. There was i thinking Toshiba threw in the towel gracefully, then they come out with comments like that.

[kourosh]

And you wonder why HD-DVD failed......................im not supprised with morons in high places!!

[bertha]

Originally Posted by ROne

On a 21" set maybe, if you're sat in the garden.

thanks for that needed a laugh

B

[mikim]

Originally Posted by markwpage

you can't polish a turd.

That exact comment sprung to mind when I read the article.

You can upscale to 720, OK... and just about get away with it, but 1080... no!

Clutching at very narrow straws I think after screwing up the HD race. Mind you, there are a million and one idiots out there who think that upscaling DVDs is high definition, so if they get the marketing right then I'm sure that the likes of Currys will lap it up to sell cheap players to the careless public

[Mark_a]

First off, yes, all things being equal, Hi-Def will always be better than DVD in pure technical terms. There's no disputing that fact. However, the point that most enthusiasts refuse to take on board is the question of when is something good enough? Being an enthusiast you will always say, "never". But that sure as hell ain't so for the great unwashed.

To jump into analogy land, most folks would be more than happy with, say, a Subaru Impreza, which is basically a normal car that has had so much technology bolted on it's all but into the supercar class. Now no one is going to say the Subaru is as good as a Bugatti Veyron, or any of the other exotic supercars out there, but even so, it's more than good enough for most folk. And for a great many of them, far more than they could ever want for their odd drives in the country and weekly trip to Sainsburys.

Unless, and until, they bring down Blu-Ray players to supermarket prices, and the discs themselves to DVD levels, not to mention cheap burners and blanks, then I don't think it will ever take its position at the top of the tree. And at present it's a helluva way off that particular spot. When it gets to the level that most folks say, 'well why not, it's just as cheap... got nothing to lose' then that's when Blu-Ray will take off.

I think Tosh may be onto something by baling early and concentrating on better upscaling. I think it's highly probable that they'll actually make more money at it in the long run.

Regards

Mark

[thomo14]

Yeh your probably right there Mark and i'm sure Toshiba will make some money out of it. But people buying into Hd will also bring the prices down of the Hd equipment as well. I think Toshiba hanging around in the dvd market will be a negative step in the long run for the consumer. There is better stuff out there that will eventually replace current HD but the studios will want to make some money out of HD before they are introduced, as it takes an age for the majority of consumers to take up new technologies and move things forward - analogue to digital being case in point.

I have SKY HD and regularly watch both HD and upscale and though some upscale does look good, i think people are kidding themselves if they think it will ever match the clarity of HD.

I also think that Toshiba are still licking their wounds and would want to do something different for a while before being humiliated into releasing Blu-ray players and upscaling dvd's for a while is what they've chosen.

[Ryu]

The biggest challenge to Blu-ray was always going to be SD DVD. It's cheap. We all know how to use it and 90% of people are already more than happy with it.

Remember S-VHS - that had limited impact even though visually it was better than VHS - because joe public was already happy with what he had.

The humble audio cassette dragged around for 30 years because joe public was happy with it. DAT could have replaced it but it didn't.

So now you have a similarly small margin of difference that isn't worth the extra investment to joe public again. (SACD, DVD audio.. the list goes on).

And don't forget what most people seem to want at the moment is lower quality in more manageable forms. MP3 audio files - scaled DOWN movies for their IPODS / mobiles.

New technolgy grave yards are full of "better" products that weren't marketed in the right way or didn't have a big enough unique selling point to make people part with their cash (escpecially so in times of econmic recession).

So Tosh's upscaling DVD players or LCD TVs might be more successful that we think.

After all the HDTV revolution is only happening because the panels are flat / slim - if they were the same dimensions as CRT it would never have taken off. Joe public really is that fickle.

[DistortionNat]

Originally Posted by thomo14

I also think that Toshiba are still licking their wounds and would want to do something different for a while before being humiliated into releasing Blu-ray players and upscaling dvd's for a while is what they've chosen.

This is my view totally. They have failed with HD-DVD and must feel resentment towards Sony and Blu-Ray. Its pathetic to be honest and provides more ammunition to those who feel that Toshiba has lied and cheated them.

[punkymunky]

Originally Posted by Ryu

The biggest challenge to Blu-ray was always going to be SD DVD. It's cheap. We all know how to use it and 90% of people are already more than happy with it.

Remember S-VHS - that had limited impact even though visually it was better than VHS - because joe public was already happy with what he had.

The humble audio cassette dragged around for 30 years because joe public was happy with it. DAT could have replaced it but it didn't.

So now you have a similarly small margin of difference that isn't worth the extra investment to joe public again. (SACD, DVD audio.. the list goes on).

And don't forget what most people seem to want at the moment is lower quality in more manageable forms. MP3 audio files - scaled DOWN movies for their IPODS / mobiles.

New technolgy grave yards are full of "better" products that weren't marketed in the right way or didn't have a big enough unique selling point to make people part with their cash (escpecially so in times of econmic recession).

So Tosh's upscaling DVD players or LCD TVs might be more successful that we think.

After all the HDTV revolution is only happening because the panels are flat / slim - if they were the same dimensions as CRT it would never have taken off. Joe public really is that fickle.

Absolutely, in my view it's Toshiba who will be rubbing their hands together in a few years having not wasted any more time and energy on a sadly doomed packaged media. Downloaded compressed HD will take off just like MP3 because in the public eyes it has a genuine USP and advantages over DVD. Some people still bang on about having a packaged media product in your hands is important to most people... but they are soooo 20th century, I know I would prefer to have an entire movie library in one box or even better on a remote secure server somewhere, think of the extra shelf space

[the_pauley]

Originally Posted by DistortionNat

This is my view totally. They have failed with HD-DVD and must feel resentment towards Sony and Blu-Ray. Its pathetic to be honest and provides more ammunition to those who feel that Toshiba has lied and cheated them.

That'll be why Toshiba and Sony have just undertaken a few nice, mutually beneficial joint business ventures recently then, because they're seething with resentment?

What people on these forums need to realise is that major corporations don't engage in the petty fanboy nonsense and rivalries that we have seen on forums in this format war. It's business as usual for them. They are in bed together in so many ways that the result of the format war is insignificant and will not disturb their other business relationships. To believe otherwise is naive in the extreme.

As to the subject of the thread I think Toshiba are on to something here, as all they have to do is deliver something to make Joe & Josephine Public go "Ooh!" and even better do it with their existing DVD collections. Every person I have demonstrated my HD to is much more interested in what the player can do with SD DVD, as none of them have any inclination to start buying their collections over again on HD.

[marty2005]

Toshiba must be the same people behind some of the scifi I watch.

You see a reflection of some-ones face in a car wing mirror or in some-ones eye, they then use "special" computer software to enhance the pixelated image and it comes out crystal clear.

It's impossible to include detail that is not there in the first place. It just makes Toshiba look like a bad looser after the HD war.

[booth1976]

Originally Posted by punkymunky

Absolutely, in my view it's Toshiba who will be rubbing their hands together in a few years having not wasted any more time and energy on a sadly doomed packaged media. Downloaded compressed HD will take off just like MP3 because in the public eyes it has a genuine USP and advantages over DVD. Some people still bang on about having a packaged media product in your hands is important to most people... but they are soooo 20th century, I know I would prefer to have an entire movie library in one box or even better on a remote secure server somewhere, think of the extra shelf space

I would imagine you haven't ever downloaded a 720p feature film then. It takes quite a long time with 5.1 audio, and on top of that it's very compressed, you can only keep it for so many days, and it's not even 1080p! Downloadable HD is some way off being viable.

If you don't believe me, try the Xbox 360 service. Give me a Blu Ray disk anytime.

As for the Toshiba announcement... What a load of bull.

[Mark_a]

Toshiba will pull off a big coup if they can duplicate the quality of a £2500 Lumagen and knock it out for £50, or less. Then they might be onto a winner.

Regards

Mark

[dazm41]

at the end of the day joe public will decide. not on oh look i can see how many lines on some actress's face or ye that sounds a lot better in super dts master,no it will be on price why ever dvd players are capable at producing good pictures, the likes of denon,acram,marantz,sony,pioneer. blu-ray as got a long way yet, me personaly i think they can still squeeze better pictures out of the dvd if they use all the space on them,thats my two cents.

[TranceFan]

Originally Posted by booth1976

I would imagine you haven't ever downloaded a 720p feature film then. It takes quite a long time with 5.1 audio, and on top of that it's very compressed, you can only keep it for so many days, and it's not even 1080p! Downloadable HD is some way off being viable.

Hardly, most people I know are on 8 meg connections, 20-24meg are coming on stream now and so they come down in no time, no problem with xbox live and also HD wmv rips available on torrents (no restrictions and some 1080p rips ) - on most peoples Samsung 42" you wont be able to tell the difference at 9 - 12 feet viewing distance. I have seen the downloads/WMV and they are very good quality, you can see the difference on a decent 50" though. Didnt spot any compression artefacts etc. No HD audio is a problem though.

Funny thing about Tosh's comment is that in some respects they are right. The average shop-sold uncalibrated 1080p lcd looks clearly worse in my eyes than good transfer upconverted SD DVD material on a decent Pioneer or Fujitsu display. Its all in the processing!

[goatman]

Let's accept the fact that we are enthusiasts on this forum, and that makes us all a little weird.

The mainstream will go to downloading or stick with SD-DVD. We will cling to Blu Ray because gives us better video & sound. Every nanomeasure of video & audio quality matters to us.

We can tell the difference, most people can't. Or if they can, they just say "So what?".

We won't convert them, they won't convert us.

There's room for us all.

As long as there are great movies around, there is much fun to be had by everybody.

Watch the movies, not the resolution.

[markrushton]

I think Toshiba may be on to something. My E10 certainly makes SD look a lot better. So much in fact I am thinking of staying SD rather than go blu. Now if they can do the same thing in a cheap dvd player? I also wonder if dvd can hold more data than a hd download so this may be the way to go.

[goatman]

Originally Posted by markrushton

I think Toshiba may be on to something. My E10 certainly makes SD look a lot better. So much in fact I am thinking of staying SD rather than go blu. Now if they can do the same thing in a cheap dvd player? I also wonder if dvd can hold more data than a hd download so this may be the way to go.

Profound statement. Perhaps the Emperor is naked. Let's speak the unspeakable. Unless you're watching on a screen bigger than 42" (and I'm pretty sure most people don't), then how many people can tell the difference between an HD image and a decent upscaled SD image? And, if they can tell the difference, how many of them will be bothered enough to pay hundreds of pounds to invest in a BD player and a collection of BD discs?

HD on optical disc (whether it's HD-DVD or BD-DVD) is tied to an ageing delivery medium. BD will get to the end of the runway before it has gathered sufficient momentum to get airborne.

Downloading, not BD, will be the new Garlic Bread for the Masses.

[Ojustabo]

Take my family.

I can see the difference between HD and upscaling a mile away, so can my daughter. We can also hear when the sound doesn't sound quiet right.

My wife, her sister, my son, the vast majority of friends don't even notice the blocky artefacts my Sky HD box gives me on some channels like Paramount, even though to me and my daughter, they stand out a mile (often they `don't see a problem/say it doesn't bother them` even when I've pointed out exactly what I mean)

What's really weird (to me) is that a lot of them have chepo flat screen TV's and are convinced they're watching HD, even though the quality is no where near a s good as their old CRTs were.

Originally Posted by Mark_a

I think Tosh may be onto something by baling early and concentrating on better upscaling. I think it's highly probable that they'll actually make more money at it in the long run.

Oh Great. At the risk of showing off my age this suggests we might see some snappy commercials soon along the lines of : <object height="355" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L9aL3G-HI0s" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

...which of course was based on: <object height="355" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OGMTCfjnP6Y" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

Any ideas for a good Mockney tune from the current charts to base the new commercial on? I'll have a fiver on <object height="355" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NHOf3s70w-c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

Remember folks... new Blammo bleach removes 99 percent of upscaling from round your u-bend. Pah! Some of us remember the old Betamax/VHS war first hand. I was always told that digital media would be less likely to end up like that because of standard architecture and the like. Gee, wasn't I the gullible one.

That was just the bit of light relief that I needed to cheer me up during my bout of insomnia Mr Thomson, thank you.

[marty2005]

A blueray disk holds 25/50GB where as a dvd holds 4.7/8.4GB so I don't know how Toshiba can get data from a disk that is not there.

Toshiba are not the only manufacturer that upscale to 1080p

If a dvd is 720×576 and a hd dvd is 1920*1080 and that's a lot more information.


Just have to wait for their advertising campaign.

[Helicon]

Toshiba are just talking out of their rears. They've lost, so they just want to spoil it for Sony. Why don't they just announce a new HD DVD format that holds twice the amount of Blu-Ray? At least that would be more believable than trying to tell people they can make a flawed SD format look as good as HD.....

Along with never buying an LCD product, i'll now also be adding anything Toshiba to my list.

[Mark_a]

Originally Posted by marty2005

A blueray disk holds 25/50GB where as a dvd holds 4.7/8.4GB so I don't know how Toshiba can get data from a disk that is not there.

If a dvd is 720×576 and a hd dvd is 1920*1080 and that's a lot more information.

Yes, and you can tell someone that it's got four times the resolution, and you'd be right. But then ask them, "So, doesn't it look four times better as a result?" and they'll say "Hmmm, not really. A little bit maybe." And therein lies your problem. It's simply not perceived as worth it. As a product Blu-Ray seriously has to adjust it's perceived value for money point if it's to succeed. Making DVD look even a little bit spiffier for a few bob more will be much more gratefully received by the great buying public. And they're the ones that will ultimately decide HD's fate, not us.

Regards

Mark