MS 409 + MS Genies

[berkeley384]

Hello

Can anyone advise because Richer sounds just looked at me like I'd gone mad when I asked them this

The Genie Satallite speakers (according to the manual) go as low as 95Hz so I set the amps crossover to 100 Hz

By default the amp is set to 80Hz, would I be right in assuming that there will be a gap in frequency so to speak - that the sub will handle anything 80Hz and lower and the sat speakers 100 Hz and higher but that nothings dealing with 80- 100 ... oh god im confused now

[cribeiro]

I'd say between 100 and 120Hz, according to the specs.

You wouldn't have a "zero" gap, but a serious, noticeable dip in the frequency response.

What else can I say? You got it right

[russ.will]

Generally speaking, you want at least half an octave and preferably a whole octave, of overlap between the speakers and the sub.

The reason for this, is that the AV receiver engineers the crossover slopes between the speakers and sub and it needs at least an octave of frequencies where the response of the speakers and sub is flat, so it can impose it's own slopes, without the natural roll-off of the speakers interfering. If the speakers roll off is superimposed on the amps roll off you could and up with a bit of a bass response hole.

So if the Genies only go to 95Hz*, then you need an ideal 170Hz crossover (Stop! Don't do it!) or a minimum of closer to 130Hz.

That's the theory.

In reality, the crossover point is entirely dependent on the quality of the sub and where it is placed. The higher the crossover frequency, the more audibly obvious the sub and so the necessity to place the sub within the front three speakers to integrate their combined output. I have to assume this is where you have the sub, because it's unlikely to integrate invisibly with small satellites otherwise.

I, personally, would start at 120Hz. Set the speakers as 'small' in the receivers menus and the crossover to 120Hz, thus directing everything below to the sub. Depending on where the sub is situated, you may wish to try lower if you can hear distinct sounds emanating from the sub, but I definitely wouldn't go lower than 100Hz given the speakers response.

To test the success of the setup, I'd personally use freely down-loadable test tones and a £25 SPL meter to remove all doubt. Otherwise, pick some decent bass laden music (preferably bass guitar where the notes are varied) and see if there are notes that are noticeably lacking. They should all have equal weight and if you can audibly locate the sound as coming from the sub, then try a lower crossover unless it's already at 100Hz minimum.

Russell

*Interesting this, because as a comparrison, Kef claim 80Hz for their considerably smaller Egg satellite. I'll tell you who I believe, even if they both omit to quote whether it's a -3dB, -6dB or whatever point.

[berkeley384]

Thank you for the replies

Yes the Subwoofer is at the front, see pic below, I'll have a look tonight and check everything

[cribeiro]

Neat!
Good, let us know how it sounds

[Tman666]

Take the covers off they look much better in my option

[berkeley384]

OK so Ive got home tonight and done the following...

1.Wound the frequency down from Max (200) on the sub to approx to a 75
2.Set the Front spekaers on the Amp to 120Hz
3.Set the LFE on the Amp to 120 Hz
4.Cranked up the volume on the sub... quite a bit

The sub is now offering lots more bass and to me sounds a lot better.

Can anyone advise if there is any floors in this, the reason I had the Sub frequency set at Max was because I followed the instrctions in the Onkyo 605's manual but seemingly this was the wrong thing to do

[berkeley384]

Originally Posted by berkeley384

OK so Ive got home tonight and done the following...

1.Wound the frequency down from Max (200) on the sub to approx to a 75
2.Set the Front spekaers on the Amp to 120Hz
3.Set the LFE on the Amp to 120 Hz
4.Cranked up the volume on the sub... quite a bit

The sub is now offering lots more bass and to me sounds a lot better.

Can anyone advise if there is any floors in this, the reason I had the Sub frequency set at Max was because I followed the instrctions in the Onkyo 605's manual but seemingly this was the wrong thing to do

Ok sorry for quoting myself but the more I read the more I get confused - almost everyone says when setting up the sub set the frequency (on the sub itself) to max and let the receivers crossover control the frequency of the bass.

With the Onkyo 605 I can chose between 120, 100 & 80 Hz for the LFE

So I set it to 120Hz as advised earlier in this thread, now with the Sub frequency control knob set to max and the amp set to 120 it sounds poor, there is too much high frequency sound coming through the sub, its not as deep and strong. But lower it down on the sub and turn the volume up and it sounds really good.

Now I know it shouldnt matter as long as Im happy but I cant help but wonder what Im doing wrong if setting it to max and letting the amp do the work is giving me poorer results.

Does any of this make sence ?

[cribeiro]

It is right that you should set the crossover in the amp to max (or switch it off).
Did you play with the phase?
Have you tried 80Hz and 100Hz as crossover setting?

[berkeley384]

Originally Posted by cribeiro

It is right that you should set the crossover in the amp to max (or switch it off).
Did you play with the phase?
Have you tried 80Hz and 100Hz as crossover setting?

Sorry cribeiro but Im getting more and more confuzeled..

The LFE on the Onkyo Amp is set to 120, and ive tried 100 & 80 too

On the Sub there is "Frequency" and "Volume".. no phase though

You see I thought that if the LFE was set to 80Hz on the amp, that nothing higher than 80Hz would come out of the sub so the bass would remain lower...

So what I did was I set the frequency on the sub to 80 Hz and played a film and it sounded awesome , lovely deep bass .. hope your still with me here

Anyhoo, so with the AMP LFE level still set to 80Hz, I turned up the frequency knob on sub gradually all the way round to max (200) and the tone kept getting higher and as it went up my nice crisp bass went away with it

So as it stands I have the AMP LFE level set at 120 and the Sub set at 80.. ish

[berkeley384]

This is what the amp is set to ...



This is what the sub is set to at the moment ...



If I turn the "Freqency" knob to max on the sub I loose my lovely crisp bass, but seemingly this is what everyone keeps telling me I should do ? I dont understand it

[cribeiro]

Hello again,

I have searched a bit (strange, the web site of MS seems to be down ), and your sub has a phase switch, you can choose between 180 and 0 degrees. I even distinguish it in your pictures, next to the frequency knob.

Moreover, the sub can control one peak in the frequency response with the notch filter, if I understood it right (but for the moment, keep it switched off). And you should also have got an SPL meter from MS (+CD with test tones) with the Genius package So you have all the tools

I cannot find the operating instructions of the kit now, but I think they explain you how to adjust your sub (I only found a german web site quoting them... in German)

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/morda...rt_genie.shtml

Try to follow the instructions with the sweeps and see if the response is even. This will help to quantify the problem much better.

[berkeley384]

Hello, Yes quite embarrasingly I noticed what you meant when I took the photo regarding the phase

I have the guage also and haved followed the MS instructions to the letter to set up the notch filter,

But what I just cant get my head round is this ...

I thought if I set the amp to 120Hz then regardless what I set the sub frequency knob to it couldnt go any higher than 120Hz

So to trial this I set both the Amps LFE setting to 80 Hz and the sub to 80 Hz and it sounded great .....

So then I wound the Subs Frequency guage round from 80 to 200 Max and the tone got steadily higher all the way through (so obviously the bass was not as deep)

NOw I didnt think this would happen I thought because the amp was set to send anything lower than 80 Hz to the sub that anything over 80Hz would just come from the fronts but as I say the tone got continually higher which suggests to me it was outputting a frequency higher than 80 Hz and I dont understand why this is

[cribeiro]

I propose you to use the test tones and the gauge with two different settings in the subwoofer (80Hz and 120Hz), and then post the table here (one column with the frequencies, the second with the corresponding measured values of sound level). Set the crossover in the amp as high as possible, and disconnect everything but the subwoofer (and dvd player or cd, of course).

Then we will see how the crossover affects the signal. But first of all, disable the notch filter, otherwise you throw too many variables into the problem at once.

This procedure will help you optimizing the response of the subwoofer. It is tedious and takes a long time (with REW works faster, but it is not easy to set up either).

The second solution is to set it up the way you like the sound. This does not necessarily mean that you get an even response, though, and although you may like it, you will like an even response more.

If Russ.will brings some more input, it might be solved faster, in case I am missing something.

[berkeley384]

Hello

I have spoken to Russ.Will about this whole thing and he has given me some things to try , I moved the sub to the other side of the cabinet, set the amps LFE Crossover to 120Hz and, followed everyiones advise and reset the frequency to maximum, have re run Audessy and set the volume to an appropriate level etc .... but I just didnt like hearing frequencies higher than 120Hz coming out of the sub.

I e-mailed Mordaunt Short to query if maybe I was doing something wrong with the sub and they advised me that the problems I have indicate that the Onkyo 605 Amp I am using does not have a "Brick wall" crossover - he advised that the amp was sending frequencies higher that the 120Hz I have the amp cross over set to sub, and suggested that I set the subs crossover to 120Hz as well.

Is the crossover on an amp normally of a "Brick wall type" ?

Knowing that it may not be a "Brick wall" crossover alter everyones general feeling about having the subs crossover to max

Should I be sending frequencies between 120 - 200Hz to the sub, as to me this make the sub sound very obvious as to its placement in the room.

When (If) I ever get any time I will follow the rest of Russells advise and purchase an SPL meter etc and learn how to use it, but for now if someone can just clarify for me the above questions so I can understand what frequencies should be coming from the Sun that would really help.


Thanks in advance

Stephen