Kef HTB2 ideal for Music ?

[spedhent]

Is this Subwoofer designed for music listing as well as homecinema use ? If it is designed also for music is it really only suited for Jazz, classical as arnt all kefs stuff geared up for that kind a music ?

Every review it gets it is raved about apart from the skimpy connectedly which kinda confuses me, if a sub like this can perform so well according to what the reviews say, how does it do this without all the other features you usually get on the REL's etc.

Thanks for any of your views on this guys

[Crustyloafer]

Originally Posted by spedhent

Is this Subwoofer designed for music listing as well as homecinema use ?

No

Originally Posted by spedhent

If it is designed also for music is it really only suited for Jazz, classical as arnt all kefs stuff geared up for that kind a music ?

I've got no idea where you got that idea from.

Originally Posted by spedhent

Every review it gets it is raved about apart from the skimpy connectedly which kinda confuses me, if a sub like this can perform so well according to what the reviews say, how does it do this without all the other features you usually get on the REL's etc.

It doesn't, simple. For the same money you can get a REL T2 or a T1 for a bit more which will offer far more flexibility for both music and movies.

[spedhent]

I thought home cinema subs usually only go down to approx 40hz, the Kef manages 30hz making it inline with Rel's T series

[spedhent]

Quote from CNET Review

"We evaluated the HTB2 while testing the KEF FiveTwo Series Model 11 virtual surround speakers. The subwoofer's musical talents were immediately evident when we played jazz CDs with acoustic bass; the taut definition exhibited none of the boom we associate with compact subwoofers, so it was easy to hear the exact pitch of each note. The Superman Returns DVD required a different set of subwoofer virtues--and the thundering scene with the space shuttle came through loud and clear on the HTB2. The subwoofer also went deeper into the low bass in our large home theater--below 35Hz--than any similarly sized subwoofer we can remember."

[russ.will]

What is your fixation with the HT2B?

The CNet review made me laugh a bit with regards to the comment on boom. It meant that either they are incapable of positioning a sub correctly, or up to that point they'd only demoed some seriously poor subs. The latter is possible as all in one systems seem to be as far as they go. In comparrison, I'm not surprised the Kef would sound both deep and tight.

In this review it's stated that;

"The HTB2's close-miked response, normalized to the level at 80 Hz, indicates that the lower –3-dB point is at 37 Hz and the –6-dB point is at 31 Hz. The upper –3-dB point is at 195 Hz with the bass boost switch set to 0dB"

That makes it distinctly average for the class in terms of depth. A woofer lacking sub, if you will.

May I gently prod you in the direction of the SB-12? Again. Refer to your previous thread addressing almost exactly the same issues for the the review links I provided.

Russell

[Crustyloafer]

Originally Posted by spedhent

I thought home cinema subs usually only go down to approx 40hz, the Kef manages 30hz making it inline with Rel's T series

The REL T series do not have a listed frequency response. All that is listed on their website is what the lowest crossover setting is, which does not reflect the lowest frequency the subwoofer is capable of reproducing, only what the lowest setting you can have the subwoofer's crossover set to. A little bit more research is needed by you I think.

[russ.will]

Hello Crusty,

IIRC, you commented on the sound of the HTB2 some time back. Any thoughts?

Russell

[spedhent]

Hi Russ and Crustyloafer,

You only have to look at the Kef sub to guess why I might be drawn to it. Also I'am able to get one of these for £300 second hand instead of the £500 RRP. Also with me having already the Kef Five Two's it's just looking more of the ideal choice. If though this is in fact just a "woofer" like one of you mention rather than a "subwoofer", then in "woofer" terms this should be a hell of a good "woofer".

I'am willing to have a "woofer" and a "subwoofer" in my bedroom if needs be, with maybe the Kef HTB2 being hooked up to my Kef Surround setup, and maybe one of the other subwoofers you mention for my Hifi. From reading on the net the consensus seems to be a similar priced "Woofer" or "Home Theater Subwoofer" as its sometimes referred to (I think, this doesnt half get confusing sometimes", will perform better than a "Subwoofer" for Movies due to them being capable of managing higher frequencies, which from what I've read are more ideal for sound effects such as explosions etc, while a Subwoofer will perform better for Music.

If I did decide to buy a subwoofer for my music independent from my surround setup, it will most definitely be hidden. As I think all cubed shaped subwoofers look dam right ugly, well ugly from a elegant point of view that is.

[spedhent]

Quote from Soundstage

"Not only do you need stereo subwoofers to get optimum imaging for music, you need at least one separate home-theater subwoofer. Home-theater subwoofers are designed to move a lot of air in the 40-80Hz range to make explosions and the like have that solid, realistic character that can make home theater so satisfying. When you apply that to music, you end up with too much 40-80Hz energy and not enough below 40Hz. If you have to share duties due to budget limitations, you’ll have to decide on your own whether to get one or two music subwoofers and use them for movies too or get home-theater subwoofers and use them for music. Which way to go depends on your personal preferences and goals for your system."

[russ.will]

Sorry mate, but beyond asthetics, which are a purely subjective opinion, most of the above is complete bunkum.

For starters, "40-80Hz" (actually 40-120Hz, lungs resonate at 100-120Hz IIRC) maybe where a lot of the kick in the chest energy is, but to suggest that that is all that is required for LFE movie reproduction is, I'm afraid, laughable in the extreme. A 'woofer' may move your chest, but miss your trousers flapping during the barrel role in Flight of the Pheonix, or the room pulsing with the pressure of the sandstorm blowing and I'll show you a setup that doesn't reach 20Hz with ease. They're just two examples from one DVD.

Secondly, I offer this article from the same publication you quote above a mere two years later. No mention of stereo subs there. You'll also note that the first two paragraphs almost completely contradict your quote and by the third;

"the subwoofer is not just a home-theater necessity anymore. In fact, really good subwoofers can play on any field: stereo systems, home theaters, and yes, multichannel music systems."

Remember, back in 2001, the time from which your quote hails, HT was developing at a much faster pace. The market (Always the driving force of development) was in it's infancy and frankly, outside of the high end, the capabilities of products we take for granted, just did not exist. Demand has dropped the prices and massively increased the performance ratio.

A good subwoofer will deliver low bass (80-40Hz) and sub bass (<40Hz) with low distortion, a flat frequency response, plenty of headroom and correct setup of that sub will deliver a tight, punchy, tuneful sound. These are qualities demanded by all music and all movies. The two are not mutually exclusive. Never have been, never will be.

Miss any one of those qualities, be it by design or lack of skill and what you've got is average bass. I'll grant you, some designs are designed with certain inplimentations in mind (REL for example), but you're not in that territory.

Buy with your eyes and you'll get a Kef HTB2 or a B&W PV-1 which fail on any number of the above points.

There are plenty of threads on this forum dealing with DVDs, CDs, SACDs DVD-As with which a good sub will make you giggle like a kid, or destroy a poor one.

If you Google 'Subwoofer Tests' you'll find plenty of group tests that'll show you what a good sub is and a bad one isn't. You'll note that none of the top performers, at any price/size point are anything other than a box or cylinder. Lifestyle stuff only cuts it in the looks department.

Russell

[AngelEyes]

I think you have been reading a lot of reviews by people who don't know what a decent subwoofer is.

It is perfectly reasonable to have a Subwoofer that is equally good in both music and Home theatre rolls. All the things that make a subwoofer good for HT use, such as depth, slam, speed and low distortion are equally important for music.

"Not only do you need stereo subwoofers to get optimum imaging for music, you need at least one separate home-theater subwoofer. Home-theater subwoofers are designed to move a lot of air in the 40-80Hz range to make explosions and the like have that solid, realistic character that can make home theater so satisfying. When you apply that to music, you end up with too much 40-80Hz energy and not enough below 40Hz. If you have to share duties due to budget limitations, you’ll have to decide on your own whether to get one or two music subwoofers and use them for movies too or get home-theater subwoofers and use them for music. Which way to go depends on your personal preferences and goals for your system."

This quote is almost makes me laugh, this guy obviously has no idea how to integrate a decent sub with his system.

Ah, I glad I got that off my chest, it's been a while since I had a good rant

Adam

[AngelEyes]

Damn took too long, Russell and his secretary beat me too it

[russ.will]

Oi! My typing finger and I, started that one at 8:00.

AM.

Russell

[spedhent]

Thanks Russ for that, didn't realize how old that article was.

I do find it hard at times to gauge what you guys or should I say "Purists" consider as a big difference or a small difference. I mean to a non Purist like my self something I would consider small might be something that is seen as being a big difference amongst you lot.

The problem with coming on here is, is that I more or less always find my self upping my budget and end up settling on something even bigger than I had planned before. One minute I have a budget of say £200, only to find that if I spend that little extra I could get something better. Once you settle on the idea of spending that much, you start to take more notice of the next product up from that, always saying to your self "emmm, an extra £100 should I " and so it goes on and on until finally reality steps in, usually in the form of your room restrictions (or maybe in some of your cases your other half), that finally do you know when to stop. I can see this happening just by looking at BK's range of subs on there website. It's also happened just recently with me choosing to buy LCD TV.

Surly this happens to some of you guys as well, or is it just me ?

If I were to opt for another subwoofer, it would most likely be one from BK's range or the SVS that you mention Russ.

Its times like this I wish I was a Millionaire, not being a millionaire makes it harder to choose what products you want, because if you were a millionaire you'd just buy the best at what ever price it took, it would leave little room for upgraditis as you'd always have the very best of everything.

Fingers crossed my numbers might come up someday, if so I'll post you lot my new setup.

I wish

[russ.will]

The restraint of budget is one of the oldest problems in audio.

An XLS-200 (£200) will give 75% of the experience, a Monolith (£430) 90%, a PB-12 (£800) 95%, a Velodyne DD18 (£3000) 99%. Where do you stop? The law of diminishing returns applies here as much as anywhere else.

If you start to factor looks into the equation, then in my experience, you skew the value toward lack of performance.

It may be a slightly odd way of looking at it, but engineering purity has a beauty all of it's own. If you take a long hard look at the SVS 12" Plus driver, the results it delivers give it a beauty all of it's own. As such, the knowing of what it is, makes it more beatiful to the eye. The enclosure in which it it housed becomes a means to a purer end.

This may sound a bit Zen, but AV is about engineering and the more you appreciate what it takes to deliver, the more you'll appreciate the beauty of the component that deliver the results.

As a starting point, have a look at one of the most beatiful things ever made here.

Russell