A musical integrated sub - what does that mean ?

[OneDesi]

I have a Rel quake and monitor Audio Radius R270's as the front speakers on my AV setup being fed by a Yamaha 757SE amp.

I really like the AV sound but recently I've heard people mention "this sub is musical and that one isn't" and "its really hard to integrate a sub with front speakers".

Now I know the R270's aren't audiophile speakers but at £500 there must be some substance to them so should be half decent for music.

Can someone explain what is meant by a musical sub and whether my quake is considered musical (I very much doubt it but....) and secondly can someone explain the process of integrating a sub with front speakers.

All advice gratefully received

[russ.will]

A musical sub is one that plays each note with a distinctly different tone from the last and starts and stops when it should. It implies an ability to deliver all notes as loud and as deep as the CD in question demands, without struggling or introducing masses of distortion into the equation. Simple as that.

These qualities are desirable in all subs, for all purposes and rely heavily on the accurate setup of the sub in it's listening room.

A sub that fails in any one of these aspects (assuming correct setup) is no better for music than it is for movies, or visa versa. As with speakers, a lack of accuracy is just plain wrong. A poorly reproduced note is equally as unsatisfactory as an unrealistic sound effect.

Really good integration with speakers is, often as not, about being realistic about the speakers abilities and picking a sub that will integrate with them. Most setup cock ups that I've heard, have been spoiled by the assumption that the speakers can, or need to, handle more than they're capable of.

The basics of integration would imply setting (in your case) the speakers to small (in the amps menus) and a crossover point of at least 80Hz and probably nearer 100Hz. Turn the subs crossover to maximum, place it just inside of either the left or right speaker (but not near the center of the wall along which they're arranged) and adjusting the subs gain to taste.

This last bit is limited by the capabilities of the sub in question. A sub capable of clean, low distortion, bass will be less obvious in it's operation. A less capable example will stick out like a sore thumb regardless.

Do I sense a lack of satisfaction on your part?

Russell

[Morb]

I smell upgraditis in the air.

Ontopic - What russ said.

[Knyght_byte]

the quake is a lovely sub for underpinning smaller standmount speakers with a bit of extra oomph, however it isnt a bass monster, its nice and tight due to the small driver size, but doesnt dig amazingly deep and wont make the floor bounce.....but as far as using it for music is concerned its fairly decent....especially with fast speakers like Monitor Audio etc...

however i'd say for another couple hundred (if you haggled) the Strata 5 was far far better, still not stomping like my PB12+ can for example when it comes to movies, but to be honest i miss the REL Strata 5 with music sometimes....yes the PB12+ hits some deeper notes, but it comes across very monotone, whereas the Strata seemed to hit deep stuff but there was a more noticable difference in what you heard.....also it kept up with my Monitor Audios better too.......if only i hadnt had to sell it to pay for the PB12+....i'd love to have kept both....heh

[Nimby]

Kb

Monotony sounds like you have a room mode peak.

[OneDesi]

Cheers Russ (and others)

That goes quite a way to explaining it!

Upgradeitis, well maybe - this ones a bit different as I dont really know what I should be looking for so I suppose I wanted to know if the quake is considered to be musical.

The other issue is space, I like subs to be small so I would never buy a big hulking thing but recognise this limits the potential (I thought about getting a BKXLS200DF but cant establish if that is musical ).

I'm going to have to hear other subs - what would you guys recommend ?

Is the B&W PV1 muscial?

[sdb123]

Hi gsrai,

I've owned the BK XLS200MKII and would say it fits the criteria of a "musical" sub. I now have the SVS SB12+ and am really impressed with it for both music and movies.

Steve

[russ.will]

That is reckoned to be the PV-1's chief quality.

Now is quite a good time to be looking for a sub. It appears that subwoofer testing season is entering full swing and a great deal can be told about subs from their measured responses.

Google "subwoofer test", or similar and you'll find a couple of well respected subwoofer field tests that add more subs to their catologue each year.

We can't link to the tests because they're on competing English language forums and all the forums have a loyalty toward their supporters and advertisers that precludes advertising/linking to competitors. We can discuss their results and help you understand what it all means, as well as relate it to your room and other kit.

It really all depends on how much you want to learn and if it matters to you enough to want to. If it does, you'd be amazed at the results achievable.

Russell

[Nimby]

With respect, Russell, I recommend a search for subwoofer tests rather than subwoofer test.

[OneDesi]

Originally Posted by russ.will

That is reckoned to be the PV-1's chief quality.


Russell

Russell

I've just been looking at the B&W site - how do you get the high level connection for stereo on a PV1 (this is probably a silyl question)

[OneDesi]

Also forgot to ask - are any of the REl's particularly good at this bass thing ?

SDB123 - what price category of Rel would say the BK is as good as (did you ever compare to a Quake?)

[OneDesi]

And forgot to ask - I assume the PV1 can have hi and lo level connected at the same time from different amps and it chooses which signal to amplify or is this a recipe for disaster?

More silly questions to follow....................

[alexs2]

Hi...I can see the meaning of musicality seems to have been done...

The B&W is a good little sub,but obviously their bigger models do offer substantially better bass extension,and whilst this is my own feeling,the REL Quake really isnt as good as some of the others mentioned here,and I also found the now defunct Q200 and Q400 rather underwhelming.

I've tried the B&W ASW650 and 750 and been impressed with both,in terms of ability to work with music and AV material,but you'll know my eventual choice was a rather bigger cylinder.....one which works very well with stereo and multichannel sources,and would be worth auditioning the current range of box subs imported here.

You should try as many subs in your price range as you can,in your own home,as not all will either work as well,or be as easy to set up,and getting one properly integrated with your own system is possibly the most important part of all.

[Knyght_byte]

Originally Posted by Nimby

Kb

Monotony sounds like you have a room mode peak.

well, i havnt managed to do a full test in regards to using the REW software, but i've shifted the sub around a few times and other than being able to personally notice boom in a few other locations, where i have it now (luckily one of the few places i could genuinely keep it) seems the best.....its also the same spot where both of my REL's were happiest too and they never suffered from monotony....

[russ.will]

Originally Posted by gsrai

Russell

I've just been looking at the B&W site - how do you get the high level connection for stereo on a PV1 (this is probably a silyl question)

It has a ethernet style connection underneath which attaches to your amps speaker binding posts.

Originally Posted by gsrai

And forgot to ask - I assume the PV1 can have hi and lo level connected at the same time from different amps and it chooses which signal to amplify or is this a recipe for disaster?

More silly questions to follow....................

It can connect both simultaneously, but the settings of other controls apply to both inputs making it a bit pointless if not imposible. The only subs to have dual simultaneous controls, that I know of, are RELs, MJ Acoustics and the BK Gemini & XLS-200.

Originally Posted by gsrai

Also forgot to ask - are any of the REl's particularly good at this bass thing ?

....what price category of Rel would say the BK is as good as (did you ever compare to a Quake?)

Answering this question has always resulted in trouble. FWIW, it's directly comparable with an MJ Ref 200 and better than the old REL Stampede, but with respect to the RELs, they're aimed more toward the two channel market. The new stuff may change this, but as yet there doesn't seem to be much experience of them. FWIW, Personally, I don't rate the Quake. The XLS-200 is an altogether superior bit of kit.

Again I suggest you search for "Subwoofer Tests" and use the explanitory guidance on what the results mean. The results give an even playing field (quite literally) against which to judge subs relative merits. The results are also free of personal bias or preference, which is handy when you start mentioning REL round these here parts.

Russell