[m4rky_m4rk]

I made a video to illustrate the difference in performance for the inaudible infrasonic frequency effects between a sub, SVS PB13U, and a tactile sound transducer, EarthquakeSound Quake 10B.

I used the Eve arrives scene from Wall-E. At the end of the clip, as the ship makes its final touch down, there is a large infrasonic pulse just as the ship makes contact to the ground. The effect is very dramatic with the Q10B, less so with the PB13U. The camera is sat on a cushion on the sofa, hence the video is bit wonky. If you look carefully at the room you can just see the video bouncing up and down during the Q10B clips, the camera also glitched!! The video camera image stabilising system was set to 'on' but it still couldn't prevent the Q10B from jiggling the image


.... and yes that is Wall-E himself peaking around the LHS of the TV

My amp was set to -14db with 0db volume being calibrated to 75db SPL. The sub channel was running 3db hot.

The Q10B amp gain was 58. See this post for more details on what that means.

If you look carefully at the first clip, with PB13U running, although it is not obvious in the clip there were very slight ripples in the water. I could feel the infrasonics from the sub, the room groaned and the vibrations could be felt in the sofa. Then take a look at the second clip in the video with the Q10B. The effect of the much stronger infrasonics from the Quake is clear to see ----- as they say a picture is worth a thousand words The Q10B isn't even at full throttle


YouTube - A comparison of infrasonic tactile sound effects between EarthquakeSound Q10B and SVS PB13U sub

[supahyp]

fabulous !

[Moonfly]

Paying for mine tomorrow so cant wait now. Only beef is I wont watch films without a sub now and currently mine is in bits

[roaduck]

Originally Posted by Moonfly

Paying for mine tomorrow so cant wait now. Only beef is I wont watch films without a sub now and currently mine is in bits

Are you reconfiguring your sub Moonfly?

Good luck with your new sofa rattler anyway.

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by roaduck

Are you reconfiguring your sub Moonfly?

Good luck with your new sofa rattler anyway.

Ive taken it apart to begin the finishing stage of the cabinet, I dont even put the AV system on now with no sub. I just cant help find it distracting that I know its not on, and I end up thinking about that instead of enjoying the material thats playing. I'll fit it and test it, but probably wont run it properly till my sub is sorted.

[Prize78]

Originally Posted by Moonfly

Ive taken it apart to begin the finishing stage of the cabinet, I dont even put the AV system on now with no sub. I just cant help find it distracting that I know its not on, and I end up thinking about that instead of enjoying the material thats playing. I'll fit it and test it, but probably wont run it properly till my sub is sorted.

That'd do my head in, having no bass....bet you're going potty without it Dan?!

[Moonfly]

I basically dont use the system without it. I learnt to be patient over the years though. Ive got a couple other cabs to finish before I can get stuck into mine as well, so I need to crack on with those.

[stevefish69]

Great stuff - I tried a similar video last week but it was nowhere near effective as the one you have done.

I had friends over last night to watch Titanic and the comments out of their mouth at the end was that it was very subtile but effective and only where needed. They had presumed that they would be shaking wildly throughout the whole film but were suprissed at how refined it felt / sounded.

The thing layed dorment for most of the film but came alive for the creaks and moans of the ship whilst sinking. There was a hell of a lot more ultra low stuff there than i've ever noticed before so i'm a happy bunny.

I'm now considering keeping the second FMOD and doubling up so that the Q10B only comes to life between 5hz and 25hz. I should get them Monday so can have a play and see what works best.

[rjrodders]

Great video Mark -

What was interesting watching the two scenes was the differences were physically noticebly different - however if you were actually in your room on your sofa the physical feeback is far more clear cut and this is the beauty of the Q10B - until you actually expereince it for yourself then you are hooked !!!!


Right now i am chomping at the bit waiting for my FMOD crossover's to arrive next week and then fine tune with the DD15. Until then i have banned my self from watching movies as i do not want to get used to feedback across the full range as i might like it too much

As per steve's post i may doulbe up and keep the range between 5hz and 25hz and try and get to a point where i forget its even there ...... until ala the post on "best subwoofer moments" i would personally rename it "subwoofer moments that may damage your health"

Anyways great to see some real positve feedback from the early adopters and when my FMODS are in place i will attempt to post my experiences.

rjrodders.

[m4rky_m4rk]

Originally Posted by rjrodders

G

As per steve's post i may doulbe up and keep the range between 5hz and 25hz and try and get to a point where i forget its even there ...... until ala the post on "best subwoofer moments" i would personally rename it "subwoofer moments that may damage your health"

I am surprised that they can do that I thought doubling up would just make the roll off steeper!

[stevefish69]

Originally Posted by m4rky_m4rk

I am surprised that they can do that I thought doubling up would just make the roll off steeper!

I was suprised too, but if you have a look at the link here then as far as i can work out, combining two 50hz lowpass will give a 25hz lowpass with a 24db slope

I'll be tring a single and double one on my favorite scenes to see what i like best before making a decision.

[m4rky_m4rk]

Originally Posted by stevefish69

I was suprised too, but if you have a look at the link here then as far as i can work out, combining two 50hz lowpass will give a 25hz lowpass with a 24db slope

I'll be tring a single and double one on my favorite scenes to see what i like best before making a decision.

Yes I was just reading that. Its not that clear apart from the example. 50+50hz=25hz. I wonder what you would get when combining some of the other values?

Back to the vid. I thought the point where the whole camera appears to judder as the ship makes final touch down was impressive because later I realised the camera image stabilisation was on and it should have took care of most vibrations. I guess that particular point was just too much for it

I wonder what it would have looked like with the image stabilisation off.....maybe I will re-shoot to find out

[theraq]

Great work!

Just test on my Buttkicker it was more rattling...

Let's see how our test will go.... later next week... Can't wait to see Q10B in working...

But thanks for video! good job!

[roaduck]

Originally Posted by Moonfly

Ive taken it apart to begin the finishing stage of the cabinet, I dont even put the AV system on now with no sub. I just cant help find it distracting that I know its not on, and I end up thinking about that instead of enjoying the material thats playing. I'll fit it and test it, but probably wont run it properly till my sub is sorted.

I know what you mean Moonfly - going from a system with a good big sub to one without is like going from a big ws telly to a tiny 4:3 black and white - horrible.

My sub is permanently on for all media duties.

Good luck with veneering or high glossing (or whatever) your cabinet and I hope it dries quick for you!

[filby1]

Originally Posted by roaduck

I know what you mean Moonfly - going from a system with a good big sub to one without is like going from a big ws telly to a tiny 4:3 black and white - horrible.

My sub is permanently on for all media duties.

Good luck with veneering or high glossing (or whatever) your cabinet and I hope it dries quick for you!

Same here, i may not have a Top Notch system, SVS the big names and all that but i too put off watching films without the sub, when i moved house it took weeks to get it in the room and working, in that 3 weeks i did not watch a single film.

This Q10B things really does sound cool for the real low 20-5Hz stuff that subs dont hit, couple with an antimode and a new Bigger screen and im set for the off

[Nimby]

Hi Mark

Great stuff! I was surprised how well the SQ of your system came over on my headphones. It sounds nicely balanced without any of the usual room effects, boxy colourations or echoing. Some of the YouTube videos of ridiculously expensive audio systems sound absolutely appalling. A dreadful racket! Yours sounded great! It was just like being there!

[m4rky_m4rk]

Hi Nimby, that's nice of you to say so. I do not think my setup is all that special. I used to have my kit list in my sig so you could see what I have, but it got to look like a gold medalion hanging on hairy chest

As a guess its probably sounding clear mainly because I didn't have it too loud for the video camera. -14 on the amp.

[acid007]

Excellent comparison mark, the difference was striking.

Looking forward to the shootout with raheelqureshi buttkicker.

Sid

[AngelEyes]

Thanks for going to the trouble of posting that Mark, I have previously looked down my nose a bit at buttkickers, maybe it is just the name but they always sounded very 'American' and perhaps a bit vulgar to me but seeing the clip and reading some of the recent discussions has allowed me to brush the chip of my shoulder and take a fresh look.

It certainly seems like something I would be interested in trying out and I definately like the idea of a stealth install and frightening the wife!

Well done.

Adam

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

I definitely like the idea of a stealth install and frightening the wife!

I thought that was the usual arrangement?

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by Nimby

I thought that was the usual arrangement?

I read that several ways and decided you meant the filthy version, you bounder!

Adam

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

It certainly seems like something I would be interested in trying out and I definately like the idea of a stealth install and frightening the wife!

Go for it

If it gets your seal of approval I'll buy one too

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Go for it

If it gets your seal of approval I'll buy one too

You me sound like your crash test dummy

Adam

[m4rky_m4rk]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

Thanks for going to the trouble of posting that Mark, I have previously looked down my nose a bit at buttkickers, maybe it is just the name but they always sounded very 'American' and perhaps a bit vulgar to me but seeing the clip and reading some of the recent discussions has allowed me to brush the chip of my shoulder and take a fresh look.

It certainly seems like something I would be interested in trying out and I definately like the idea of a stealth install and frightening the wife!

Well done.

Adam

That's nice of you to say so, I hope others are also willing to be open minded too.

Despite all the nay sayers I was currious enough to take a chance myself and I found that the Quake 10b definately adds a lot to the AV experience. For the money spent its possibly makes the biggest difference per pound I have spent. I am trying to avoid the word 'fun' because some see that as a negative description when used to describe products destined for the serious business of AV enterainment

I wanted to share my exepriences partly because I wanted to encourage others to get intersted and share the experimentation, products tried, discussions etc and partly because I couldn't quite believe I was the only one on here that was vocal about transducers in a positive way; they really do make big improvement to the Home AV experience.

My lone words were obviously not convincingly converying the transducer experience too well and there were too few others backing up what I was trying to say. It was Stevefish69 and, he may be surprised to here, also Moonfly, that first got me thinking about making a short video. I remembered Moonfly's video of his PB13U rythmically disturbing the flower arrangements in his kitchen as being an impressive illustration that, in part, led me to investigate and then buy a PB13U myself. I also remembered a famous scene in Jurassic Park were the T-Rex approaches and the first thing that alerts everyone to its presense were the infrasonic riiples in a coffee cup.

My main point with the video was to illustrate that transducers operate in a different league and in a different ball game to subs. Neither sub or transducer should be viewed as some sort of replacement for the other. When working in tandem the overall effect is very impressive and highly recommended. IMHO a big sub is essential to get the whole experience as seamless as possible.

I agree with you about the unsophistacted product names and its something I have commented on before. The very American choice of names is not endearing to non American and serious minded AV fans. Perhaps the marketing guys do not care because Buttkicker seems to be the market leader in terms of sales and public awareness and sadly this leads others to emulate it.

I am rambling again

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by m4rky_m4rk

I also remembered a famous scene in Jurassic Park were the T-Rex approaches and the first thing that alerts everyone to its presence were the infrasonic ripples in a coffee cup.

My main point with the video was to illustrate that transducers operate in a different league and in a different ball game to subs. Neither sub or transducer should be viewed as some sort of replacement for the other. When working in tandem the overall effect is very impressive and highly recommended. IMHO a big sub is essential to get the whole experience as seamless as possible.

You hit the nail squarely on the head there, Mark.

Those of us who have huge subs aren't looking for more upper bass. It is the exciting, room-moving stuff which comes in the big box.

If a tactile transducer can bridge the gap between the audio side and the physical sensations (below 20hz) then our huge subs could (slowly) become redundant with increasing sophistication of these transducers.

Of course there are other benefits from big subs. Like headroom and low distortion. But anything which reduces the box count in the average living room has to be worth looking at.

If transducers can manage the seismic stuff without annoying the neighbours then that is another very good reason to investigate them. This is still an unknown area.

It may be that eventually the purely audible can be greatly reduced as the seismic stuff takes over the task of directly stimulating the film watcher. Though I would imagine a powerful response almost to DC would be necessary to satisfy this new requirement.

Given the computing power becoming available in AVRs a new dedicated channel for tactile transducers is not unthinkable. The quality requirements for a VLF amplifier are not remotely as high as an audio amplifier so that should help to reduce prices. Where are the Chinese when you need them?

Never admit to rambling: Only thinking aloud.

[m4rky_m4rk]

Originally Posted by Nimby

If a tactile transducer can bridge the gap between the audio side and the physical sensations (below 20hz) then our huge subs could (slowly) become redundant with increasing sophistication of these transducers.

I am not sure that would happen. I like the big sound eminating from my sub. It fills the room with powerfull bass, its palpabale, I can feel my clothes vibrating and I can hear the room complaining, and its all enveloping. The trouble with sub infrasonics is that it cannot safely shake the heavier items, such as floor and furniture, as brutally hard as a transducer can. The hard, powerful shaking of these items makes for a much, much more realistic deep bass effect.

When sub and transducers are combined the whole effect of deep powerful enveloping bass from explosions, gun shots, earthquakes, seismic rumbling etc is much realsitic than is possible with either sub or transducer on their own. It can be so real it really is scary at first

Originally Posted by Nimby

If transducers can manage the seismic stuff without annoying the neighbours then that is another very good reason to investigate them. This is still an unknown area.

Its not unknown. The shaking effect from a transducer is limited to the sofa or platform. You can if you want reduce the gain on the sub, or use a smaller/no sub, and use a transducer to still maintain a large element of the infrasonic fun factor. Or maybe I misunderstood your point?

Originally Posted by Nimby

It may be that eventually the purely audible can be greatly reduced as the seismic stuff takes over the task of directly stimulating the film watcher. Though I would imagine a powerful response almost to DC would be necessary to satisfy this new requirement.

I again I do not think so. Think of it as tactile sound in surround. ie infrasonics from the front and sides via sub and infrasonics from below via transducer. The illusion of powerful infrasonics from a solid floor and or heavy furniture is the crucial part in creating a more realistic effect, because only real seismic events can do that.

Originally Posted by Nimby

Given the computing power becoming available in AVRs a new dedicated channel for tactile transducers is not unthinkable. The quality requirements for a VLF amplifier are not remotely as high as an audio amplifier so that should help to reduce prices. Where are the Chinese when you need them?

I won't hold my breath but it would be truly amazing when combined with 3D visuals.

Originally Posted by Nimby

Never admit to rambling: Only thinking aloud.

Yes thats what i meant to write

[rjrodders]

[QUOTE=m4rky_m4rk;11619238]That's nice of you to say so, I hope others are also willing to be open minded too.

Despite all the nay sayers I was currious enough to take a chance myself and I found that the Quake 10b definately adds a lot to the AV experience. For the money spent its possibly makes the biggest difference per pound I have spent. I am trying to avoid the word 'fun' because some see that as a negative description when used to describe products destined for the serious business of AV enterainment


+ 1

After reading the growing interest in this relativley new area of HC i also was curious enough to bite the bullet and see what it actually does add to the experince.

I am extremley pleased to the point where i could now not imagine being without it - ever !!!!!

A truly remarkable peice of HC kit at an affordable price point.

Thanks to Mark - Steve69 and moonfly for thier early adopter posts - which convinced me this was worth a punt. Pound for pound best upgrade bar none.

Cheers.

Rjodders.

[Nimby]

I will bow to your infinitely greater experience with these devices.

It seems that antisocial noise levels are becoming a problem which the national politicians are already waking up to. Particularly if votes can be bought dirt cheaply by passing the problem onto cash-trapped councils at no personal expense in time or effort.

My main point was that transducers could eliminate some of the problems facing an increasing number of HT owners. Particularly those who do not enjoy rural detached homes. An immersive experience which does not rely on deafening bass levels is to everybody's advantage in the long term. Like it or not, many AV fans live in flats or houses with very poor acoustic isolation. We have inherited a housing stock which was built for quite another time. If overall sound levels can be reduced by utilising local transducers then a great many HT owners and their neighbours will sleep more soundly.

It should be remembered that powerful subwoofers need powerful speakers to keep up. If it turns into an arms race the consequences for neighbours (and us) could be catastrophic. Imagine a world where AV could only be legally enjoyed by headphones.

There are a number of factors coming together right now: Many suffer form high noise levels from traffic. If this is replaced by quiet electric cars one could see a greater demand for the peace not to be interrupted.

More and more people realise the fun to be had from augmenting their exciting new TV screens with a nice little pair of speakers and a subwoofer. They aren't into AV or HT. They just heard better sound at a friend's home and the snowball started rolling.

Our present freedom to "lay waste" all before us with a massive subwoofer may be rather short lived. A new generation is growing up with noisy games and constant music as part of their everyday lives. People are becoming ever more irritated by antisocial or unthinking production of noise. How soon before somebody is brutally murdered for talking loudly into a mobile phone?

We may soon hit a brick wall of negativity to such noisy pastimes. The transducer could help to sneak us under the radar given a little more sophistication to match more modest subwoofers. Or new arrangements of subwoofers. Where more are used in much closer proximity to the listener to reduce nuisance sound levels in conjunction with transducers.

[filby1]

Again i dont have one of these,

but Tonight i watched "Fast & Furious" the 4th one, Not a bad film more of a revisit to the first.

Anyhow, this is the first time i have watched a film after a session re calibrating with the MCACC and manual SPL meter Inputs, the monolith was going mad with the sick track on this disc, some nice deep grumbles from the Motors

I cant help but think a Q10B would of made a massive difference to the Sytem and sound as im sure there must be sound down to at least 10Hz in this track

Cant wait to get one now...

[stevefish69]

Originally Posted by filby1

Cant wait to get one now...

The Sub forum is being overtaken by Tactile transducer talk - Who would have thought this would happen a few months ago when the re-name of the Sub forum caused such a stir.

Mark - You do realise you are the new age AVF Nostradamus