Bass management, auto eq'ing, speaker settings and my findings

[Moonfly]

Ok so this is a bit of a (LONG) post to put my views out there on a few things and get some feedback. These include Audyssey multi eq xt, as found in some avr's, the dspeaker antimode 8033 and the speakers settings in general. These are things Ive found with my setup so may not be applicable for people with different kit, but may be of interest to some people and get them thinking about their setups.

Well, Ive had the pleasure of a loan antimode for the weekend and must send a big thanks to its owner. I eventually found I'd got a decent response that I was happy with by just using REW, an SPL meter, some placement sussing out and fiddling about with speaker options. Even after all this there was still the odd timing issue with the sub on some tracks that nothing could seem to fix. I found the antimode has cleared these up just nicely. There is ever so slightly less bass but there is still plenty for my taste and everything is probably just more accurate now, at least thats how I see it and I'm very happy now and will probably soon invest in one of these as a result. I can certainly recommend this device anyway although I would say I dont think it has been a night and day change for me. For some perhaps it will be and perhaps self setup has gone some way to reduce the difference Ive seen, but its still done the job it claims to do and done it very well. While thats quite a good result that is now my firm opinion of this device, its not the whole story though and i'll get to that a bit later.

Moving on to Audyssey Multi EQ XT. Ive seen mixed opinions on this and for some time I could see why this was. I couldnt seem to get any huge improvement by using it and music sounded better in Pure Audio mode with Audyssey out of the picture. I have now completely changed my assessment of this but that change has not been easy or straight forward for me. I have found that getting it to work as its claimed it does depends on correct implementation. Where the antimode is easier than breathing to use, Audyssey is not, and it seems to me its very picky about one or two things. Firstly, I'd say about how you use it, mic placement and such. Get it wrong and results can vary from wandering if it has done anything to making things sound worse due to hit and miss results.Then on top of this, I found that getting your sub setup optimal before you use auto EQ also makes a fair old difference. So far it doesnt seem all that upto scratch and doesnt seem to do what it claims very well at all, and Ive seen other people report this, but I didnt give up.

On the other side of the coin I have seen people reporting very good results and I wanted the same. So I got stuck in, I e-mailed Audyssey with my concerns, and while I as waiting for the response got stuck into some proper sub placement experimentation to see how much improvement I could get on my own. I made quite a difference, mainly curing a fair dip in my response and my ears where very pleased with the result. Then I got my reply from Audyssey and gave that another go following their advice. This time things where much better. Bass is very clear and articulate, but still very powerful and is so much closer to how I thought my system should sound. I'm now also very happy with this.

So, multi EQ for me now does indeed do what it says on the tin, but it wasnt straight forward and easy, and the general mix of opinion would seem to back this up. I would also say it doesnt remove the need for self EQ'ing. It may well help if your stuck with a bad position, but IMO there is still no substitute for getting stuck in yourself, learning the process and optimising what you have before EQ. In short, the more you help Audyssey the better it seems to work, and not just generally. I found there was more of a difference between Audyssey being on and off when I had optimised my setup myself, than previous to me doing some setup myslef. Good setup is a good setup after all then, and it would seem its easier to improve a good responding system than a bad one. This to me would seem to have a direct link with dips in response, no matter what you do auto EQ cant remove these and you need to help the system with this. Once you do though the results are much better, and it makes the feature well worth having. I am now happy to listen to music in stereo again rather than Pure Audio mode because of Audyssey working at its best and I'm now much happier.

In summary, Audyssey is a good feature, that does work, but its not without its downfalls as it can give mixed results if not used properly, and it cant work miracles. Help it to do its job properly though and results are in deed very good, and IMO possibly even good enough for some people to not need the stand alone devices.

The last thing I have been playing with lately is the settings on the Onkyo in the search for a better response. Audyssey state speakers must be set to small, as do everyone else. Everything you see tells you to do this and anything that goes against this is frowned upon greatly. Even though this is accepted now, Onkyo seem to set speakers to large and I couldnt stop wandering why. So I got stuck into REW and decided the only way to get to the bottom of this was to find out for myself, no one seemed to have the answers anyway so off I went on one , and I think Ive found a few interesting things out.
OK, so after I got my setup to the point I have it now I started the digging process. I played with different crossovers, different speaker size settings, various sub tuning modes, Audyssey on and off, Pure Audio modes and plain old doing nothing to what the system wanted. Ive tested the speakers and what Audyssey has done to them, done the same wit the sub, and ran graphs to see what effects the sub and speakers where having on each other throughout these various settings. I now have probably over 50 sets of results, way to many to post them all up but I think I have found my answers. In short, 80 cross over works best, well all those years Dolby and THX spent finding this out cant be argued with can they so thats no surprise I guess. What has come as a surprise is I found that both to my ear, and on the charts, my response is better when speakers are set to large/full range. I mentioned this on a thread and got a rather abrupt but not surprising response.

All my testing points to one thing though, and that is that on the Onkyo at least, speaker size setting isnt affecting the crossover settings. The sub is working exactly as it should and doesnt change when the speaker sizes are changed and I take a sub only reading. The only thing this is changing is the way the speakers work, and this in turn affects overall response. In my case I prefer the augmented response and looking at my response I can see what it is thats changing that I obviously like. The great thing is that Audyssey seems to understand this and take this into account, or perhaps this is something Onkyo are doing I dont know. One thing I do feel is that people who say Onkyos arent very good musically probably dont leave speakers set to large (which I think of as music mode, and small as movie mode). A perfectly flat response, while technically correct, doesnt seem to be my ultimate setting preference. I prefer a slight peak here and there, but it musnt be to much or it starts drowning out other frequencies, its just some slight tweaking but I definitely prefer it.

This got me wandering something I cant really answer. Is Audyssey doing more when its measuring system response than just testing your speakers against your room, is it also figuring out how the subs response affect this too and allowing for this, it certainly seem to but like I say I cant honestly answer this. It seems to listen to your speakers, and your sub, and work out how best to get them to work together once EQ is applied to each speaker. This would mean it calculates things differently for each and every setup, for every conceivable combination or sub and speakers, and uses some clever stuff to work with what ever its given. This for me is beyond what something like the antimode is doing. That device can account for room acoustics, but it cant figure your speakers into this, and cant figure out how the EQ'd responses work together and that for me is impressive, especially considering its a 'free' feature compared to the cost of stand alone devices. This is also why I think Onkyo are using your speakers full range should you choose to, if they are up to the job then why not. This is especially apparent for me with music, using full range speaker setting seems to give a softer slope at the crossover similar to how a high level connection on a sub, and given the music implications of high level connections and my thoughts on full range speakers sounding better especially with music, one or to things certainly seem to be adding up to me.

All in all I now thing Ive got my system as good as it could possibly be. I mentioned above how the antimode is great but there is something else. After I ran it I checked the results of my self and Audyssey set system. On both my graphs and waterfalls I could see little difference, but I could certainly here it. It doesnt seem to do everything, and if you have done a lot of work yourself it seems a lot of what it does wont be anywhere you can see it. The same seems to apply for Audyssey, although what it does is certainly more obvious on the graphs and waterfalls than the antimode is. That said they both seem to benefit from all the help you can give them. Ive also found trusting the Onkyo to set your speakers works better to, both on the graphs and to my ears.

All in all I'm pleased with were I'm at, even if I do seem to be bucking the trend a little compared to what the majority say. Am I weird or showing the way, I dont know, bit I figured I'd pass my thoughts on and see what people make of it. That is if you manage to read this far through the mass of text

Thanks for reading.

[Badger0-0]

I've had a bit of a think about this and while my thought here is not conclusive, I keep coming back to the fact that the Onkyo/Audyssey implementation is crap.

Why would you call speakers that don't do full range, "full range"

It goes against any standard that is followed by all other manufacturers that I can think of and any half experienced user too.

Mind you, I guess it's just as trustworthy as Onkyo's power ratings




Whoa, whoa, down boy, it's a joke

You're right though, it's a bloody long post.

I'll have another read tomorrow

[Badger0-0]

By full range, I mean large.

And while I'm at it, if you have to maximise the setup yourself first, to get the advantage, isn't it a bit pointless?

Just thoughts mate, as I'm sure you appreciate

[Moonfly]

Well Onky call it full range. I think the main thing is that the 80 hz cross over is all about movies, and music is just as important for me. I find getting music right is harder, but if you get that right then movies just follow.

I'm really trying to point out that setting the speakers to large doesnt change the crossover setting, or what the sub does, only changes how the speakers work. Where they cross over (sub and speakers) the response is then altered ever so slightly and this adds a slight peak, but its a smooth one where boost occurs over a range and not just a peak. Musically it sounds miles better to me, and has no negative effects on films at all as I can tell.

As for self setting up, I just have come to the conclusion auto eq works ok, but if you put some effort in yourself it works better. Like we know, auto eq of any sort doesnt solve dips, and I think it a case of getting rid of all of those to start of with to get top results, its not really about doing it all yourself.

Lastly, while I agree Onkyo seem to arrive at their power figures rather dubiously, in practise they seem to deliver. Ive heard a few different speakers being powered by various Onkyos and they always sound very powerful and authoritative. The real test is in the listening and so far they pass every time

Shame you cant come and have a listen Badger. Id be very interested in your thoughts given our seemingly opposite tastes in sound.

[Badger0-0]

I think the main thing is that the 80 hz cross over is all about movies, and music is just as important for me. I find getting music right is harder, but if you get that right then movies just follow.

Absolutely, that's my viewpoint too.

But then you get some people who say that certain speakers can't do both.

Interesting

I'll no doubt be back to you after I've had more time to consider it mate

[IronGiant]

We used to get away with "strings and sealing wax, and other fancy stuff, "

before they invented these silly self aware amps

[m4rky_m4rk]

Dan I do not understand the large and crossover thing.

• On my amp if I set the speakers to Large then only .1 LFE goes to the sub.
• If I set to to small then 0.1 LFE and everything below crossover goes to the sub. Signals below the crossover are not present in the high level output.

On my Pioneer there is the option for Plus mode, maybe this is similiar to getting full range at the sepakers with the Audyssey Large speaker setting and at the same time getting low level below crossover at sub. This is the so called double bassing. Last time I checked it sounded too bassy on my amp because I think there is also some boosting of the bass levels.


If you are using large speakers and getting full range on the high level, how does the antimode cope with that? Surely it has no control over those troublesome bass frequencies that are now present in the high level speaker signal! Mixing high and low bass signals gets very complicated and messy. Phase issues become more important and you have to bring in the subs own phase and crossover. Two crossovers with differnet roll offs, two phase adjustments for sub and amp. There's lots to get wrong when running EQ.

I now keep things simple. Small speakers, xover 80hz, Amps EQ turned off for the sub, EQ1 for sub low level.

[Moonfly]

Hi mark. First off the large is simply the speaker setting on the amps menu. Crossover is obviously the bass management bit. When ever I browse the forums it seems a strict law that speakers must be set to 80 hz to best work with the cross over etc. People always say if you set to large then your sub isnt doing all its intended to do etc etc. I guess my assumption is that an AVR is totally focused on movies with all its processing and myriad of speaker terminals yadda yadda. So I couldnt understand or get my head round why the Onkyo was setting them to large. It also got me wandering my Panasonic DVD player (around 10 years old now) had large speakers option in its setup so decided to get to the bottom of it.

Perhaps you make a good point about complicating things more by having more bass to manage. I have found though that on the graphs there isnt a great deal more, a little bit but nothing to screw the response up totally and its not affecting the subs actual in room response. After running a load of graphs I figured I was just learning in college so to speak and need a job placement to learn further. So I went back to basics, and stated giving it some listening. Like I say movies sounded petty much the same, but music was transformed. It was only one of those things where there had been a slight change but it made all the difference to me.

This made me think that perhaps Onkyo are taking more consideration over the music side of things than a lot of people give them credit for. Certainly I think some arent doing them justice if they have capable musical speakers, and dont set them to large.

EQ'ing. Right well as a few have noticed I went on a mission last week because of that dip and have put some considerable effort into getting the most out of this. The antimode sorts room issue out with the sub. It does it very well and that works as is intended. Then after I set that, I ran Audyssey which obviously now takes the EQ'd subs response into consideration but it takes speaker response into this equation as well, something non of the stand alone units do unless you spend mega money. The thing I now believe is very good about Audyssey is that it does take all the issues you mention into consideration, and corrects for them all, it even seems to account for the interaction effects of the speakers on the sub and vice versa. This is why I have renewed belief in this feature. Perhaps its not great for some people with music and it would certainly seem to be the case, but I now put this down to the speakers capabilities (back to how it always has been) and the way you implement your amps setting for music playback. I dont blame Audyssey for this anymore. I think I have found a way to play music in a non PA mode that still sounds very close to it, but utilises the sub as well. Good if you dont have the high level option but would like it I suppose.

I think there is a chance this is hugely overlooked now with such a focus on home cinema, and perhaps I'm focusing on a music listeners preference somewhat. It really needs someone who doesnt give a sod about music to do the large/small test with a film to see if it is making a difference for movies. Personally I dont think it does, I watched Kung Fu Hustle on BR a couple nights ago and it sounded fantastic, but others may disagree.

Just FYI, on the Onkyo you can apply double bass (which is probably similar to the 25hz lift feature in the antimode etc), but you can add bass and treble to each channel too if you so wish. I dont do either of these. In summary, the antimode is making sure the subs in room response is as good as it can be. Then Audyssey sort the speakers out, and helps the sub further and this basically irons out so that the large speakers setting creates non of the issue your mentioning. Certainly I'm finding that the bass I'm hearing is incredibly accurate, more than any other system Ive owned, but its also more powerful than ever. For me this is a great combo both musically and for movies, and in part I think its because of the oversight on the speaker size setting.

Originally Posted by m4rky_m4rk

If you are using large speakers and getting full range on the high level, how does the antimode cope with that? Surely it has no control over those troublesome bass frequencies that are now present in the high level speaker signal! Mixing high and low bass signals gets very complicated and messy. Phase issues become more important and you have to bring in the subs own phase and crossover. Two crossovers with differnet roll offs, two phase adjustments for sub and amp. There's lots to get wrong when running EQ.

Just to clarify, I dont any think of this becomes an issue simply because your not actually using the high level connection, your sub is still working via low level and all management is taken care of by the amp itself. There is notissue with more signal going to the speakers because they are simply doing what they were designed to do, and the larger crossover section is taken care of by all the auto EQ stuff, you simply get a slight lift across the crossover area as the sub and speaker frequencies boost each other slightly, but its like a couple db nothing more. Like I say, Ive found this makes music sound much better.

[AV Junkie]

Good thread

Just to clarify, are you saying that even with the Fronts set to 'Large', the audio for these channels below 80Hz is still also sent to the sub?

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by AV Junkie

Good thread

Just to clarify, are you saying that even with the Fronts set to 'Large', the audio for these channels below 80Hz is still also sent to the sub?

Correct and I have done graphs to prove it, but it also sends some to the speakers, giving you more of a cross over overlap. This is why I have made a reference to high level sub connections. With the 80 hz settings and a low level connection the bass management is very clinical. Sub stops, speakers start, and there is very little interaction between the two (great for films which are produced with this in mind). A high level connection on a sub uses a much gentler slope so there is much more of a crossover, kinda smoothing the subs and speakers responses together more. As mark says this leads to more interaction between the sub and speakers and he's saying this could leads to more room issues, or any issues present being made worse. My experience is that when you use your auto EQ device(s), especially Audyssey, this doesnt happen which is great. I believe this large speaker setting is giving you a pseudo high level sub connection via the LFE channel and this is making music much better without movie performance taking a hit as it would when using a high level sub connection. Also because the LFE channel is bass managed by the processor on board the amp, I reckon this is why non of the issues mark brings up become issues.

I guess I'm basically getting at making the most of your AVR musically, while keeping movies and all the bass management stuff still working as intended. The long post is basically an in depth explanation of how Ive arrived at this conclusion, and how I think you need to make sure you do things right to get the best results, especially were Audyssey is concerned.

[AV Junkie]

Have you ascertained the upper limit of the crossover, ie what is the highest mains frequency that is also directed to the sub?

[Moonfly]

The sub remains working exactly as it should. It rolls off exactly as it should across the 80 hz level. It only changes if you change the LFE cross over value in the amps menu. Also, the speakers drop of around the 50-60 hz region. At this point the sub is slowly starting to roll off and by 80/90hz its output is considerably lower, this is why the boosting that occurs when speakers are set to large is only a couple db and not more, which in turn is why it works rather than just inducing a big peak where they cross over.

The only thing you are changing by setting the speakers to large is the way the speakers are working.

[JohnMulcahy]

Originally Posted by Moonfly

All my testing points to one thing though, and that is that on the Onkyo at least, speaker size setting isnt affecting the crossover settings. The sub is working exactly as it should and doesnt change when the speaker sizes are changed and I take a sub only reading.

If that was the case in all modes the Onkyo would comprehensively fail the THX certification testing. It is not uncommon for receivers to offer modes (particularly for stereo/music use) that do not follow the normal bass redirection rules, a typical mode being to have the fronts receive the full range signal whilst still redirecting bass to the sub (used to call that "direct+sub" on the TMA processors). To see what your system is doing you could apply a full range sweep to one channel of a line input and separately measure the output from the sub line output and the corresponding speaker line output to see how the responses look in the various processing modes, excluding the acoustic responses of the sub/speakers/room.

[Moonfly]

Well here is what I tested and how. I did sweeps for the following:

1. Sub only, cross over at 80hz, speakers at 80hz
2. Speakers only, crossover at 80hz, speakers at 80 hz
3. Sub and speakers, cross over at 80hz, speakers set at 80 hz
4. Sub only, crosover at 80hz, Speakers set to full range
5. Speakers Only, cross over at 80hz, speakers set to full range
6. Speakers and sub together, 80 hz crossover, speakers set to full range

The subs response was always the same when tested alone. The part of the subs response you can see when a speakers and sub graph was run remained the same. The speakers response changed depending on setting for them. The combined speaker and sub response changed with speakers set to large to reflect the extra performance from the speakers.

I found I preferred the sound produced with speakers set to large for music, but didnt really notice a change on films.

I run music in stereo only, but films in 5.1 DD. If there is any flaw in that process I would like to know so I can account for that. As for the method you state, I'm not sure I understand how you mean. I have found with speakers set to large they do relieve a full range signal while everything 80hz and under goes to the sub. In stereo mode though this only works if the speakers remain set to large, and I'm wandering if Onkyo choose to set speakers to large on purpose so that music is reproduced in a certain way. I certainly prefer it.

Perhaps when the amp is not in stereo mode, i.e one of the movie modes, this full range setting is no longer in effect by default. I think your suggesting this but not sure. How would I test this when REW only works in stereo mode, and any modes I could apply wouldnt be true DD so couldnt be taken as a proper DD test. One thing though, if it does indeed use this large setting for stereo/music mode only, then defaults to the 80hz limits for all speakers during films, then surely leaving them set to large is better. Films are unaffected, but music is improved?

[JohnMulcahy]

Originally Posted by Moonfly

As for the method you state, I'm not sure I understand how you mean.

Make measurements with the soundcard connected directly to the line outputs from the receiver, leave the amp and speakers out of the equation.

Originally Posted by Moonfly

Perhaps when the amp is not in stereo mode, i.e one of the movie modes, this full range setting is no longer in effect by default. I think your suggesting this but not sure. How would I test this when REW only works in stereo mode.

Try making the measurements in "Stereo" and in a mode such as Dolby PLII - but in PLII best make sure you only have 1 input channel connected otherwise the centre will get the signal.