[hemel-george]

Re previous posts on th Apple TV.

Thanks for expanding on the Apple TV. The recent update seems to have given it the capability to be used as a standalone music player / server, especially with the support for streaming to the airport express. It will be interesting to see if there are any further updates announced in January.

By the way, did the update do anything to reduce the power consumption of the Apple TV when in standby / off. Reports I've read indicated that the Apple TV uses about something like 17 to 20W when in standby mode, as the wireless stayed on to synchonise with the associated 'server' machines. Other reports also talked about the units getting (and staying) hot, probably for the same reason. I'd be interested in real world experience.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by hemel-george

By the way, did the update do anything to reduce the power consumption of the Apple TV when in standby / off. Reports I've read indicated that the Apple TV uses about something like 17 to 20W when in standby mode, as the wireless stayed on to synchonise with the associated 'server' machines. Other reports also talked about the units getting (and staying) hot, probably for the same reason. I'd be interested in real world experience.

The power consumption makes a lot of sense to me. The Apple TV stores all it's data on a hard disk. A wireless card on a system board alone would only use 2-3W of electricity but, when syncing, it must read/write data from that hard drive. You're not going to find a hard disk that uses less than around 15-20W just to keep it spinning.

That's quite a lot of standby consumption. By comparison, the Sonos ZP80 will use about 3W and the Squeezebox Receiver (SBR) about the same. Strangely the SBR has a "power off" function that uses exactly the same power as it does when it's on. It's almost like they put in a dummy control to satisfy customers who asked how you turned it off.

[hemel-george]

Thanks for your comments. Do you know if the update to Apple Tv changed the power consumption in standby?

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by hemel-george

Thanks for your comments. Do you know if the update to Apple Tv changed the power consumption in standby?

If the wireless and hard drive are still active, I doubt it could have at all.

[hemel-george]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

If the wireless and hard drive are still active, I doubt it could have at all.

Thanks again for your comments. Perhaps somebody who knows the answer might be able to enlighten both of us.

[davepuma]

Just a quick post to say I bought a 2nd gen 8gb touch yesterday as I couldn't be bothered being outbid on a 1st gen model. I've ordered a new Zagg cover too and will ebay this 1st gen one.

Anyway the real point in my post is to say I downloaded the ipeng app for the Squeezebox and it works a charm. I'm really impressed, the volume control could be a little better but I prefer to adjust the volume using the amp anyway via my Harmony but it really is tops and it has impressed everyone that's used it so far.

[amcluesent]

I've pretty much given up on Squidgy and iPeng for now, awaiting the 2.0 releases. If you have a collection of any size, they're slow, buggy, have problems with album art and need frequent lengthy "resynchronisation".

And neither can make use of server-side plugins for browse/search.

Now that the Controller has the audio output enabled for headphone listening (using the SqueezeCenter 7.3 nightly) with wi-fi range that works anywhere in the house/garden and has the 'party mode' playlist maker, I'm liking it!

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by amcluesent

I've pretty much given up on Squidgy and iPeng for now, awaiting the 2.0 releases. If you have a collection of any size, they're slow, buggy, have problems with album art and need frequent lengthy "resynchronisation".

Yeah, I was initially planning a review of the SB controllers but having followed the threads closely it seems a little pointless right now and I thought it would only be fair to give the one-man-band developers a bit of a chance. If these were official Logitech releases, they'd look very poor, but as they're 3rd party then it's fair enough.

I personally think these "community" releases should have been free at first. People are effectively paying to debug code that wasn't well tested before release. I get the impression they were rushed out a bit to try and catch some of the buzz when the Sonos controller came to market. If they were going to do that, a free beta version would have made sense - followed by a chargeable "gold" release, which would have the usability bugs resolved.

[amcluesent]

>Yeah, I was initially planning a review of the SB controllers<

You could review the Sonos controller apps...

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by amcluesent

>Yeah, I was initially planning a review of the SB controllers<

You could review the Sonos controller apps...

I planned to do a side by side feature comparison with screenshots showing the same music library on the 2 different systems etc. but it's pretty pointless right now with iPeng looking so unreliable and Squidgy not doing multi-room.

Just the start-up time alone makes iPeng a comparitive failure, i'm hoping this is significantly improved long term.

[Member 7321]

Squidgy is up to v1.3 now and supports player synchronisation according to iTunes. I haven't had a play yet so I can't say how good, bad or indifferent it is.

I'll have to have a read of this thread as I have had a play with Squidgy and thought it was really good and worked well. I have 10k+ tracks in my collection.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by ultra238a

Squidgy is up to v1.3 now and supports player synchronisation according to iTunes. I haven't had a play yet so I can't say how good, bad or indifferent it is.

Thanks for the update, I didn't realise they'd moved things on so quick. I'll try and take a look when I find a minute. A possible 3-way comparison on the way.

Are they releasing the updates for free?

[amcluesent]

>A possible 3-way comparison on the way.<

There's at least one more Squeezebox app. to come, wot I've been beta testing.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by amcluesent

>A possible 3-way comparison on the way.<

There's at least one more Squeezebox app. to come, wot I've been beta testing.

This the artist formally known as iSqueeze?

[Member 7321]

Updates are free yes. I have spoken to the guys who are doing Squidgy a bit (I had problems with getting it running on a WHS box due to ports being blocked) and they are working hard on getting new bits and bugs released and fixed as soon as possible.

TBH I don't mind paying £5 for software like this. I do agree that if it is in beta that it should be free to test and then pay for the release but hey it is only £5. Yes Ro53ben I know the Sonos software is free but then so is the Apple controller software for Airport Express and if we are all really honest all Apple needs to do is make iTunes serve out to multiple Airport Express units like Sonos and Squeezebox do and both platforms would probably die over night (ok maybe not so quickly but Apple has an even better product image than Sonos (and a much better one than Squeezebox, but for different reasons)) - I can't understand why they haven't already done it.

[amcluesent]

>both platforms would probably die over night<

IIRC it was AppleTV that died in the marketplace. Apple would want to lock everything down in their usual way, can't imagine they'd ever implement FLAC support in iTunes and the Airport Express which people with a serious interest in music servers now use.

[Member 7321]

I didn't mention AppleTV I was talking about iPod. Apple have Apple Lossless which you know as well as I do as a format does exactly the same thing.

Listen I am no major Apple fan boy (ok I have a MacBook but I have only had that for 6 months after 18+ years of Microsoft) and I wouldn't want either Squeezebox or Sonos to die out. My point, thinking about the (much) bigger picture is that if Apple did decide to pull their finger out and educate their iPod market about the joys of taking their iTunes around their house with a £65 zone/room (or what ever you want to call it) wireless player they would do a much better of job of it than what has gone before because of the circumstance they are already in.

It doesn't really matter (IMO) if Apple do lock everything down. 99% of iPod owners/iTunes users don't even know that the music they buy from the iTunes store can't be played on anything else. They don't care because it plays on their iPod so why would they?

But hey, just my opinion

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by ultra238a

Updates are free yes. I have spoken to the guys who are doing Squidgy a bit (I had problems with getting it running on a WHS box due to ports being blocked) and they are working hard on getting new bits and bugs released and fixed as soon as possible.

TBH I don't mind paying £5 for software like this. I do agree that if it is in beta that it should be free to test and then pay for the release but hey it is only £5. Yes Ro53ben I know the Sonos software is free

At this point I'm struggling to get my mind around where the SB products sit in the marketplace. In some ways making a direct comparison to the Sonos software feels unfair - a lot of these guys are new to the scene, they don't have a large team of experienced developers, like Sonos do. They are simply working for the "Squeezebox Community" - or are they? On the other hand, they are SELLING their product. These aren't free community downloads, they are commercial products being sold retail. The iPeng developer opened his own registered company specifically for the purpose of selling this product. He now gets tax deductible expenses and can take a wage from this company. Selling just 2000 licenses is going to net him some £10,000. Would it really be unfair to directly compare that to Sonos who have contributed all of their development time for free?

but then so is the Apple controller software for Airport Express and if we are all really honest all Apple needs to do is make iTunes serve out to multiple Airport Express units like Sonos and Squeezebox do and both platforms would probably die over night (ok maybe not so quickly but Apple has an even better product image than Sonos (and a much better one than Squeezebox, but for different reasons)) - I can't understand why they haven't already done it.

iTunes already does serve out to multiple Airport Express units. It will even serve up from AppleTV, without the need for a PC to be turned on. It can be controlled remotely from iPhone or iPod Touch.

What it can't do is handle multiple streams of music concurrently, you can only play the same music in every room. Controlling the volume in those rooms individually isn't ideal either. It can't link to the big music services like Rhapsody, Napster, last.fm and Pandora. These are some of the reasons Sonos won't "die out overnight".

To expand the product to support multiple streams of music, with proper synced playback would be some effort; but it's far from impossible - Apple surely have staff who could develop this. But they would have to do it without copyright infringement, essentially without infringing the Intellectual Property rights of the competition. Sonos came to market with their colour screen remote based multi-room system nearly 4 years ago now and, as I understand it, it's fairly well protected. Copying an idea is one thing, not getting sued is another one all together.

The marketplace has changed considerably over recent times. Since the release of Duet, and some of my product criticisms, numerous SB owners have told me that the multi-room capabilities of Sonos aren't important to them. That sync of playback between rooms isn't critical and that controlling each player individually isn't so important. If I believe that, this now puts them (or at least new buyers with the same thoughts) right in the marketplace for the Apple offering.

Many people have genuinely bought Duet over Sonos because it is cheaper and they aren't interested in the multi-room setup that Sonos offers. I respect that, but Apple is now cheaper for these people. Before they were comparing 2 products, now there are 3. We see the number of AirTunes threads on AV forums increasing as people become aware of these new products and they get recommended by magazines and people on the TV. When people review Duet, they compare it to Sonos. When people review Apple AirTunes, they compare it to Sonos. It's a bit like how "hot hatch" car reviews always make a comparison to the Golf GTi - it's a benchmark in the industry.

I don't see the Sonos market has having changed significantly since launch. Initially it was a cheap, whole house solution when compared to the alternatives from Russound and the like. It still is that for many people, can be installed for a fraction of the cost and they can easily take the components with you when you move house. With the introduction of the iPod Touch controller, the entry cost for Sonos has decreased significantly and, if anything, the potential market for Sonos has increased. I don't know of buyers who specifically bought Sonos as they were desperate for a non-PC solution to playback Rhapsody, Napster or last.fm - but I already know several people who have bought Sonos purely because they owned an iPod Touch and thought it was a great solution.

Comparitively, I see the market for SqueezeBox as being a little diluted by Apple. Those looking for a budget solution to get their ripped music around the house now have 2 offerings - for many, the Apple will be seen as cheaper, for some it will be cooler too. The Apple iPod controller software also (at least currently) works better than the Squeezebox equivalents.

Apple offer a strong solution at a good price. It's strengths are in it's brand, build quality and reputation.

Sonos are an industry benchmark in this sector, the largest selling product and with a great reputation. You pay more for it, but get a feature rich product as a result that will happily run without a PC.

What I'm trying to see now is the strengths in the offering from Logitech. Price was always a strong one, but Apple have kinda burst that bubble. They (Slim Devices) always had a good reputation in the sector, but is anybody really going to claim the Logitech brand is stronger than Apple?

From an iPhone controller perspective, only 2 out of the 3 brands offer a free, officially supported controller. Whilst it may only be £5, the lack of official support for it from the music product vendor is going to be a turn off for some. But the official Squeezebox Controller is relatively new and probably hasn't seen the return on investment that is required.

2009 is going to be very interesting.

[amcluesent]

>At this point I'm struggling to get my mind around where the SB products sit in the marketplace<

Pretty much all bases covered, I'd say.

Transporter - Audiophile hi-fi, i.e. for 96/24 hi-res lossless
Boom - self-contained unit with amp/speakers, maximum functionality for bedroom, kitchen, work-room
Receiver - entry level price point for multi-player/multi-zone use with Controller
Classic - Ideal single system for study etc. where having own display is useful
Controller - whole system wi-fi control, added-value of playout on headphones
SqueezeNetwork - Internet 'cloud' server for radio access and internet hosted streaming services without needing PC/NAS turned on
SqueezeServer - music server with added functions from community plugins
SqueezePlay - Desktop player using same codebase as Controller for use on PC/Mac/Linux PC/laptop with soundcard and linked to speakers

>sync of playback between rooms isn't critical and that controlling each player individually isn't so important<

For me it isn't, but just to be sure it worked, I synced my Transporter & Boom, Classic & Controller to create two zones each with two players and controlled each player with the Controller. All worked as expected

[Autopilot]

At this point I'm struggling to get my mind around where the SB products sit in the marketplace

I think it's blindingly obvious where the Squeezebox fits in the market and they are the best selling streaming solution. Given how successful it is, i think it fits just fine

As for Apple adding better multi-room functionality and thus killing of Sonos and Squeezebox, i think that they would have a lot more than that - and adding access to extra services like Last.FM and Napster etc would require a massive turnaround in their current strategy. That said, with Apples announcement that it's to completely ditch DRM, who knows what their long term plans are now.

Back on track, i have really gone off the idea of an iPhone/touch as a remote. It's not the software, but simply the fact that it would become completely ridiculous in our household as it could end up anywhere. I also have very big concerns about it's robustness as they scratch very easily and would not take much abuse. I would like to see a solid and robust touch screen remote from Sonos/Slim Devices, but you know what - i'm not sure i really care that much for touch screens anyway. I find them a bit annoying at times. Maybe i'm old fashioned, but i like buttons i can feel. That said, if i have an iPhone i would use it, but i would not buy one for the job.

BTW (the creator of iPeng had to register a company because Apple App store requires it i believe)

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by Autopilot

I think it's blindingly obvious where the Squeezebox fits in the market and they are the best selling streaming solution. Given how successful it is, i think it fits just fine

Have any official stats to back up that claim? I know it's a "fact" that's thrown around a lot, but I've never seen any proof of it anywhere. I know when Logitech bought Slim Devices in 2006 for $20million dollars that it would have cost significantly more (like an extra digit) to buy Sonos.

Back on track, i have really gone off the idea of an iPhone/touch as a remote. It's not the software, but simply the fact that it would become completely ridiculous in our household as it could end up anywhere. I also have very big concerns about it's robustness as they scratch very easily and would not take much abuse. I would like to see a solid and robust touch screen remote from Sonos/Slim Devices, but you know what - i'm not sure i really care that much for touch screens anyway. I find them a bit annoying at times. Maybe i'm old fashioned, but i like buttons i can feel. That said, if i have an iPhone i would use it, but i would not buy one for the job.

I used to be in your camp until I got one. Now, overall, I find the Touch controller is better. I still miss buttons on occasion, especially when skipping track and I find myself on the wrong screen, but overall the experience is better. A hybrid touchscreen device with hard buttons would be ideal, but the UI would need to be carefully designed to hit the sweet point.

I really enjoy using my iPod touch but it's confirmed for me that I wouldn't want an iPhone. I really wouldn't enjoy using that interface on a phone one bit.

[lisbonlion]

so can i use all the available options, squeezenetwork etc using just a squeezebox reciever and ipeng without the duet controller or would i need to get a classic?

thanks in advance

[davepuma]

You can use the touch/ipeng with any of the Squeezebox range from the SBR through Classic to the Transporter. I haven't experienced any of the bugs that people have reported but my music library has about 500 albums and it's working a charm. I prefer the Classic (SB3) myself as I find the display useful not only for displaying Now Playing info but the various RSS feeds etc. that I have running when it's off.

To control the SBR without a duet SBC you need to configure it, which looks complicated! There are some handy guides around for doing it. Once configured, you can use the touch to control it though and obviously adjust settings through Squeezecenter (web browser).

[amcluesent]

The only known way to setup a Receiver without a Controller is the Net-UDAP script - Net-UDAP

It is reported to work OK but isn't supported by Slimdevices.

[coolio107]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

Yeah, I was initially planning a review of the SB controllers but having followed the threads closely it seems a little pointless right now and I thought it would only be fair to give the one-man-band developers a bit of a chance. If these were official Logitech releases, they'd look very poor, but as they're 3rd party then it's fair enough.

I personally think these "community" releases should have been free at first. People are effectively paying to debug code that wasn't well tested before release. I get the impression they were rushed out a bit to try and catch some of the buzz when the Sonos controller came to market. If they were going to do that, a free beta version would have made sense - followed by a chargeable "gold" release, which would have the usability bugs resolved.

I would really appreciate, if you maybe tested the systems you talk about before crying crap.
iPejng is not a "community" release, but a commercial software

Originally Posted by ro53ben

The iPeng developer opened his own registered company specifically for the purpose of selling this product. He now gets tax deductible expenses and can take a wage from this company. Selling just 2000 licenses is going to net him some £10,000. Would it really be unfair to directly compare that to Sonos who have contributed all of their development time for free?

Wrong

2. Sonos did not contribute anything for free, their business model is selling hardware, that's something else. All they do is trying to max the profit out of their hardware by lowering the entry barrier to their system architecture. Smart move, good move, yet no charity.
for £10,000 you get around 30 developer days, you don't develop an iPhone app in that time.

But yes, on that other issue I completely agree with you: It's completely fair to compare the products heads on, so why don't you do it? Dissing by rumor is not really "comparing", isn't it?

Originally Posted by ro53ben

The Apple iPod controller software also (at least currently) works better than the Squeezebox equivalents.

In which respect. Could you probably tell me like, one thing that works better with Apple Remote than with iPeng? To just take your favorite point: It takes longer to sync the library with Apple Remote than with iPeng.

Originally Posted by ro53ben

I planned to do a side by side feature comparison with screenshots showing the same music library on the 2 different systems etc. but it's pretty pointless right now with iPeng looking so unreliable and Squidgy not doing multi-room.

Just the start-up time alone makes iPeng a comparitive failure, i'm hoping this is significantly improved long term.

The startup time alone is 6s, typical setup time is 0s for at least 90% of our customers. What makes it a comparative failure on this? How long does Sonos take?

So please stop judging stuff based on roumors or I can start judging on the Sonos system which I only know in hindsight as well.

Originally Posted by Autopilot

I also have very big concerns about it's robustness as they scratch very easily and would not take much abuse.

Not justified.
My first iPod touch now is 15 months old and I can tell it's actually extremely robust.
Granted - the back scratches. But that's the back. I dropped it on stone floors several times and the glas was skidding across streets at least twice without a single scratch. It's unbelievable what that thing can take. So, OK, the shiny back will certainly look badly scratched after a while but in terms of functionality and actual robustness it beats every phone I have owned so far except maybe for an extremely ugly old Siemens outdoor phone that was eating SIM cards and was bugged by permanent software errors.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by coolio107

I would really appreciate, if you maybe tested the systems you talk about before crying crap.
iPejng is not a "community" release, but a commercial software

Thanks for the clarification. I understood it was developed by a community guy for the community as the previous web based version was. I shall now treat this entirely as a commercial offering.

2. Sonos did not contribute anything for free, their business model is selling hardware, that's something else. All they do is trying to max the profit out of their hardware by lowering the entry barrier to their system architecture. Smart move, good move, yet no charity.

Last time I looked, a Sonos controller cost £350. By offering a free controller on the iPod, they negate these £350 controller sales. They sell LESS hardware. They are "lowering the entry barrier" by reducing cost for the consumer. If the customer is spending less, then Sonos are receiving less money. There is no way of seeing it any differently.

But yes, on that other issue I completely agree with you: It's completely fair to compare the products heads on, so why don't you do it? Dissing by rumor is not really "comparing", isn't it?

Consider it done.

In which respect. Could you probably tell me like, one thing that works better with Apple Remote than with iPeng?

Last time I heard, iPeng crapped out with any artist that had "The" in their name. I appreciate there aren't many fans of "The Beatles" in the world though, so it won't affect many people

The startup time alone is 6s, typical setup time is 0s for at least 90% of our customers. What makes it a comparative failure on this? How long does Sonos take?

Sonos is a native application. There is no "sync" with a music library, it access the music library directly on the Sonos system. As a result, the startup is near instant.

So please stop judging stuff based on roumors or I can start judging on the Sonos system which I only know in hindsight as well.

I didn't judge at all. If you take my posts in the correct context, you will see I INTENTIONALLY didn't review iPeng as I wanted to give it a fair shot if and when I did.

I can only assume it's ready for review now...cool.

[coolio107]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

Thanks for the clarification. I understood it was developed by a community guy for the community as the previous web based version was. I shall now treat this entirely as a commercial offering.

Yes

Last time I looked, a Sonos controller cost £350. By offering a free controller on the iPod, they negate these £350 controller sales. They sell LESS hardware. They are "lowering the entry barrier" by reducing cost for the consumer. If the customer is spending less, then Sonos are receiving less money. There is no way of seeing it any differently.

Since it's a closed system they first have to sell the system architecture.
So does Logitech, btw, that's why they seemingly have no problem with the iPod apps.

Consider it done.

Cool.

Last time I heard, iPeng crapped out with any artist that had "The" in their name. I appreciate there aren't many fans of "The Beatles" in the world though, so it won't affect many people

This is wrong. As I said: you should have tested it before commenting. iPeng 1.0.3 had a problem with artist names _only_ consisting of articles to be ignored in sorting. Like "The The". "The Beatles" never were a problem.

I can only ask you to make yourself known to the subject before spreading uninformed rumors.

Sonos is a native application. There is no "sync" with a music library, it access the music library directly on the Sonos system. As a result, the startup is near instant.

Ok. So how long does it take to load a list of 3,000 albums if it does that every time you call them?

I didn't judge at all. If you take my posts in the correct context, you will see I INTENTIONALLY didn't review iPeng as I wanted to give it a fair shot if and when I did.

I can only assume it's ready for review now...cool.

Definitely

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by coolio107

Ok. So how long does it take to load a list of 3,000 albums if it does that every time you call them?

It's my intention to use a camcorder for the review and youtube the results.

[amcluesent]

>It's my intention to use a camcorder for the review and youtube the results. <

How will you undertake a meaningful test? It's a matter of public record that your NAS is inadequate to run the SqueezeCenter.

I expect any comparative reviewers will want to state the partnering equipment used to demonstrate their even handedness.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by amcluesent

>It's my intention to use a camcorder for the review and youtube the results. <

How will you undertake a meaningful test? It's a matter of public record that your NAS is inadequate to run the SqueezeCenter.

I expect any comparative reviewers will want to state the partnering equipment used to demonstrate their even handedness.

I've got a more than adequate windows box to run SqueezeCenter for the test. Dual core, 3GB RAM, negligible load.