[fiveforty]

Hi

I'm about to enter into the world of multiroom audio. Havent made up my mind whether to go for squeezebox or sonos tho yet.

I just want to make sure I've got everything right in my head on how each of them work before I see what I can afford!

squeezebox - hook up sb duet to amp in 1 room, have a sb boom in another room and a QNAP TS-109 II with SqueezeCenter running on it hooked up to router (so I dont have to have a computer switched on)

sonos - ZP90 or 80 hooked up to an amp in 1 room, ZP120 or 100 in another room with speakers then a buffalo linkstation with the music on hooked up to router (so I dont have to have a computer switched on)


so if I've got all that right I have a few of questions, if some one could help me out?


1. is it possible to sync up the duet and boom without the aid of a computer?
2. can you control the boom with the duet remote?
3. does the buffalo linkstation have to have any software running on it like the QNAP does?
4. with both the duet remote and sonos controller is it possible to scroll through the music collection to find the track I'm looking for?
5. with the sonos controller can I control what is being played in another room (does it need line-of-sight??)
6. from what I've read FLAC is the best format to have music in - if I have 500+ albums and 800+ MP3's how much space will these take up?
7. if I wanted to add another zone in the future how mush hassle is it to set another one up on each system - do I need to reconfigure or is it virtually plug and play??

thx

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by fiveforty

squeezebox - hook up sb duet to amp in 1 room, have a sb boom in another room and a QNAP TS-109 II with SqueezeCenter running on it hooked up to router (so I dont have to have a computer switched on)

That sounds sufficient. The only complication can be if your music is in an unsupported codec and needs to be transcoded. If you use Apple Lossless, for example, you may find the transcoding process will slow your NAS down a LOT. If you use mp3 or FLAC, however, all will be just fine.

sonos - ZP90 or 80 hooked up to an amp in 1 room, ZP120 or 100 in another room with speakers then a buffalo linkstation with the music on hooked up to router (so I dont have to have a computer switched on)

Yes, Sonos will work with any NAS, such as the Linkstation, as no software is required.

1. is it possible to sync up the duet and boom without the aid of a computer?

Yes, this can be done through the controller. Although the functionality of 'sync' on the Duet is very different to the 'zone linking' functionality of Sonos. I'd advise you tried both before you buy, so you can get a feel for the difference.

2. can you control the boom with the duet remote?

Yes

3. does the buffalo linkstation have to have any software running on it like the QNAP does?

Sonos will work with any NAS, no software is required - just a standard file share.

4. with both the duet remote and sonos controller is it possible to scroll through the music collection to find the track I'm looking for?

Both can be controlled from a PC or Mac. The Duet controller is web browser based, the Sonos controller is software based and must be installed on the PC/Mac. Both interfaces offer easy ways to find your music.

The Squeezebox can be controlled with the Squeezebox Controller, included with the duet. You can easily browse through Artist/Album/Track, but there isn't a specific view that shows all tracks from all artists. There also, if I remember correctly, isn't a way of browsing all tracks by all artists - you must know the Artist name to find a track.

The Sonos can be controlled from the Sonos controller, an iPod Touch or an iPhone. You can easily browse by Artist, Album or Track and also text search for words. The word searching is easier with the iPod touch interface as you can easily type on the touchscreen keyboard. Take a look at Sonos - iPhone Controller to see it in action.

5. with the sonos controller can I control what is being played in another room (does it need line-of-sight??)

Sonos supports up to 32 players with 32 controllers. It's all wireless, no line of site required. The iPod controller uses your existing wifi, the Sonos controller uses SonosNet and will talk to the nearest ZonePlayer.

The Sonos controller interfaces offer easier multi-room control. So if you're planning to link/unlink zones and adjust what's playing in each room and the volumes quite frequently, I'd favour the Sonos option.

The Squeezebox handset can only control one room at a time and switching between the, whilst simple, takes a few seconds. Contrastingly, Sonos allows you to view what's playing in all the rooms at the same time - adjust volumes, skip track etc. all from a single interface. The link I posted above will give you a good idea for how it works.

6. from what I've read FLAC is the best format to have music in - if I have 500+ albums and 800+ MP3's how much space will these take up?

Depends how long each track is. Uncompressed wav occupies about 10MB per min of audio. FLAC is compressed to half that amount, so works out to around 5MB per minute. Low quality mp3 (128kbps) is about 1MB per minute.

FLAC is a good option, but only if your playback device supports it - for example, you can't use it on a standard iPod. Very few portable devices handle FLAC.

7. if I wanted to add another zone in the future how mush hassle is it to set another one up on each system - do I need to reconfigure or is it virtually plug and play??

Adding an extra player to each system is very easy. The video on the link I posted above shows how easy it is to do on Sonos. On Duet it's very easy too, most of the difficulty is in the first time setup. The main difference is with the total number of players each system will support. Sonos will handle up to 32 players which can all play the same or different music concurrently. Logitech don't supply an upper limit, but I understand it's somewhere around 8. As it uses you existing wifi network, it runs out of bandwidth as you have more units playing at the same time. You may want to confirm a limit on the number of players and the number of linked/synced units and see if it will meet your future requirements.

When adding a new Squeezebox unit, you'll need to ensure you have adequate wifi coverage in your required destination. It may work well in your key rooms, but peripheral bedrooms may lack signal. Contrastingly, Sonos builds a mesh in your home, so each player only needs to talk to one in an adjacent room...not to your router.

[amcluesent]

>The Duet controller is web browser based,<

Err, no. The Controller display is created by software ('Jive') in the device and interacts with the SqueezeCentre using Slimdevice's own protocol. All the artwork is cached in the Controller, so it's very fast.

>is it possible to scroll through the music collection to find the track I'm looking for<

That's quite a broad requirement! On the Slimdevices Controller, I've configured it so I can browse by Genre, Artist, Album, Composer and newly added music, plus I can use the search facility to search by artist, album or song.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by amcluesent

>The Duet controller is web browser based,<

Err, no. The Controller display is created by software ('Jive') in the device and interacts with the SqueezeCentre using Slimdevice's own protocol. All the artwork is cached in the Controller, so it's very fast.

Read my post again, I was talking about the PC/Mac controller functionality. This doesn't use Jive, this uses HTML in a web browser.

[amcluesent]

>Read my post again<

Yep. So I guess you meant to say the SqueezeCentre user interface? The Controller is a product. Thought you'd want to be more precise about these things when informing beginners.

[nacmacfeegle]

"is it possible to scroll through the music collection to find the track I'm looking for"

A number of searching tools are available out of the box, search by artist, year, album, song title etc. plus some very useful plugins to speed up searching, such as custom browse and lazysearch.

You can even browse your music folder alphabetically by the folder names(as long as you don't integrate with i-tunes), which is my normal way of doing things as my folders are structured music>artist>album>track titles (mp3 filenames). You can skip to folder names if using a std squeezebox remote, as it has an input very similar to that used for texting sms messages. So I can jump from 10,000 Maniacs to ZZTop in a couple of button pushes.
With both Sonos and Squeezies track tagging, and directory structure are the keys to success, and stress free listening.

" if I wanted to add another zone in the future how mush hassle is it to set another one up on each system - do I need to reconfigure or is it virtually plug and play??"

With my colony of Squeezeboxes it is very easy for me. But I do use a mix of wifi and homeplug hardwired. If I add a wirless unit all I need is the network security details and server name, and enter via the SB3 std remote. If I add a wired one there is no set up apart from selecting which server to talk to (I use two servers and each one is presented on the set up options). I'm sure the Sonos option is even easier to expand.

In terms of space required I use mostly MP3 vbrs at around 200-300 kbps. I have 20,000 or so songs and it takes up around 120gig of storage, so you do the maths....With Flac you wil get around 4 cds per gig

If you are choosing between Sonos and Squeezeboxes, my thoughts went along the lines of...
Squeezeboxes are cheaper.
Sonos is easier to set up.
Sonos has better mesh expansion of your network.
Squeezeboxes are more customisable giving a huge variety of plugins for things like weather forecasts, RSS news feeds, real time train delays and arrival times etc.
Squeezeboxes have a very useful friendly community online, giving constant free development.
You can (or used to able to) download a hardware simulator to try stuff out for free with the Squeezebox before commiting to purchase.
At the time I chose, Sonos had a far superior remote unit.
Squeezeboxes look better.

When I opted for the Squeezeboxes there was only the SB3 and Transporter in the family, now the clan includes the Duet and its nice controller, and also the Boom, all work from the same parent software.

For what its worth I am very pleased with my Squeezies, but they do take a bit of 'owning'. If you are non tech (or can't be bothered reading a 'network for dummies' book -- which is what I did) and minted, Sonos maybe a better option.

[ro53ben]

A key difference between Sonos and Squeezebox for me right now is Napster.

Squeezebox doesn't support it and I simply won't be without it. I get every album on the day of release for just £9.99/mth.

It saves me an absolute fortune as my wife used to hear a song she liked on the radio and throw the CD in the trolley at Tesco. Now she just plays them on Napster as many times as she likes for the fixed price, saving me £30-40 per month.

My NAS was offline for almost a week recently but all that time we had access to all our music through Napster anyway so it made no difference. In fact, it made me wonder why I'd spent hours ripping my music in the first place.

[davepuma]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

In fact, it made me wonder why I'd spent hours ripping my music in the first place.

No DRM, lossless bitrates, exact backup of your music etc. for a start I can see why some folks like to download music but I'll stick to CD's and ripping. It takes me minutes to do and I can listen to the CD on the way home from Tescos before I rip it to hard drive for my SB or ipod!

I don't see the point in investing £££'s in my kit, then listening to DRM restricted low bitrate downloads.... (I know Napster isn't DRM anymore but still...). I'll maybe try it at some point but I'm happy with CD's at the minute.

[Autopilot]

I would urge anyone who is trying to pick which system waits for squeezecenter 7.3 to be released at the end of the month if they can. Some killer new features coming

[davepuma]

Originally Posted by Autopilot

I would urge anyone who is trying to pick which system waits for squeezecenter 7.3 to be released at the end of the month if they can. Some killer new features coming

Other than the lineout on the SBC, what's coming in 7.3?

BTW, looking forward to using the itouch as a controller for my SB3 ! !

[Autopilot]

Btw Napster has DRM, only certain devices can play them, including the sonos, but not ipods or the squeezebox.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by davepuma

BTW, looking forward to using the itouch as a controller for my SB3 ! !

You already can and have been able to for a while, try pPeng and others. What is currently missing is an official supported controller that is fully featured.

[amcluesent]

>What is currently missing is an official supported controller that is fully featured<

But the community-source ethos of Slimdevices doesn't depend on 'official' product. Much of what gives the unique value-add in the Slimedevices eco-system are the contributed plug-ins

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by amcluesent

>What is currently missing is an official supported controller that is fully featured<

But the community-source ethos of Slimdevices doesn't depend on 'official' product. Much of what gives the unique value-add in the Slimedevices eco-system are the contributed plug-ins

I see what you're saying, but the side-effect of this is that when the 'official' bits get upgraded, all the unofficial bits don't work.

When the SB Receiver, controller and SqueezeCenter 7.x was released, many (most?) of the plug-ins stopped working completely. Somebody even wrote a plug-in that would help some of the broken plug-ins working on the new version until they were updated to be fully compatible.

For a little used plug-in, this isn't so bad, but for a controller to stop working after an official firmware upgrade it may be a disaster. The 3rd party developers depend upon released product to integrate their functions, the official products don't and can work on unreleased beta.

There were already 2 unofficial community developed iPod controllers for Sonos before the official controller came out. When the new Sonos update came out, it contained last.fm and Radiotime functions. These work perfectly on the free official controller, but don't work at all on the the 3rd party products that people paid money for.

An official products guarantees that functions will work and will continue to work and this is why people now have greatly increased confidence in spending their money on an iPod to use as a dedicated controller. Previously you had to have an official Sonos controller for when things inevitably stopped working.

[Autopilot]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

I see what you're saying, but the side-effect of this is that when the 'official' bits get upgraded, all the unofficial bits don't work.

When the SB Receiver, controller and SqueezeCenter 7.x was released, many (most?) of the plug-ins stopped working completely. Somebody even wrote a plug-in that would help some of the broken plug-ins working on the new version until they were updated to be fully compatible.

For a little used plug-in, this isn't so bad, but for a controller to stop working after an official firmware upgrade it may be a disaster. The 3rd party developers depend upon released product to integrate their functions, the official products don't and can work on unreleased beta.

There were already 2 unofficial community developed iPod controllers for Sonos before the official controller came out. When the new Sonos update came out, it contained last.fm and Radiotime functions. These work perfectly on the free official controller, but don't work at all on the the 3rd party products that people paid money for.

An official products guarantees that functions will work and will continue to work and this is why people now have greatly increased confidence in spending their money on an iPod to use as a dedicated controller. Previously you had to have an official Sonos controller for when things inevitably stopped working.

Isn't this the case for just about any software thats extensible? Almost every time i update Firefox, if i update on the day of release, i find many addons don't work. Last time i updated Photoshop it broken many plugins i used, including some commercial ones. That just the way it tend to be with plugins, thats the price of progress, take it or leave it. Most Squeezebox owners probably don't use any. What is a negative for some people is a huge positive for many others, temporary breakage is a price worth paying for some excellent plugins that provide great new functionality for nothing. It's one of the joys of owning a squeezebox, but i guess it's not for everyone. That said, what plugins do you mean? I use some of the most common ones and they are almost always ready for, if not before, the next Squeezecenter. This due to the open source nature of the software and daily public betas, there is no great surprise when a update is released. If you look at the latest 7.3 beta, almost all the most popular plugins are already working with it. I take your point though about the possibility of your only controller breaking, but people could stick with the version of Squeezecenter they have until its updated, or use the web interface which wont be broken and that can be accessed with the Touch. I think it's quite unlikely to be a major issue really and don't forget that native iPeng and iSqueeze (or whatever he plans to change the name too - what was your suggestion?) are commercial products so they will have to keep them updated. The third party sonos remote developers would not have had a chance. Third party Apps can often be better than official ones and more innovative, the new iPeng certainly seems to be looking nice.

ro53ben - if you get chance, any chance of a fair comparison with the Sonos one if try it? I would like to hear how they compare

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by Autopilot

What is a negative for some people is a huge positive for many others

Totally agree, it's a complete personal preference and we clearly represent different sides of this opinion.

I think it's quite unlikely to be a major issue really and don't forget that native iPeng and iSqueeze are commercial products so they will have to keep them updated. Third party Apps can often be better than official ones and more innovative, the new iPeng certainly seems to be looking excellent.

The 2 third party iPod Sonos controllers are also commercial products. Weeks later, they still haven't been updated to add in functionality for the new Sonos features. They're under zero obligation to do so.

iSqueeze and iPeng are also not commercial products at all until they are actually approved and listed in the iTunes store. iSqueeze has already run into trademark issues and won't actually be sold under that name. Neither product has actually been approved by Apple yet. Even if they are, there's a risk they'll be ditched in the future. Look what happened with CastCatcher...

Apple bans iPhone app for changing version number • The Register

[Autopilot]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

The 2 third party iPod Sonos controllers are also commercial products. Weeks later, they still haven't been updated to add in functionality for the new Sonos features. They're under zero obligation to do so.

There is a big difference with Squeeze stuff though. Firstly, Sonos is a closed system and they dont run an open public beta programme, so the third party controller developers probably had no idea what was going into the next version, let alone access to the code - so they have to start at the same point the public update. Secondly, the official developers don't provide any support for the third party developers. I know they made some changes to squeezecenter specifically so the iPeng would work better. Thirdly, sonos has kind of stolen the third partly developers thunder by releasing a free and official version - how do you compete with that on a commercial basis?

I fully agree though, it's great to have official support. But official does not always mean you can trust things will always work. My iPod Classic had a well known bug which made it almost impossible to use it my car. It took Apple 6 months to address it! Same with my Topfield PCR, it's had some terrible bugs for years - the third party developer community have come to the rescue and reverse engineered and patched the firmware. So 'official' is no the end all and be all.

As much as i love my iPod and want a touch screen one, i dont trust Apple. They could just as well pull the Sonos App too.

[Autopilot]

Oh look - another Squeezebox controller app has appeared! - Squidgy

Spoilt for choice, competition can only be a good thing and get all of the competing apps to improve and compete. Is it possible an official version could kill off this competition, like it might have done with sonos?

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by Autopilot

Firstly, Sonos is a closed system...

It's not, it's fully open and manageable using the extensively documented UPNP protocol - the thing that Slim Devices are trying to get SqueezeCenter to do but haven't managed it yet.

If it wasn't open, 3rd party controllers couldn't exist; they do.


Squidgy looks interesting, £4.99 is a good pricepoint, I'll maybe give it a go at some point this weekend. Anything is better than my SBC, at least my iPod Touch stays connected to my wifi network when required.

Shame there's no freebie "lite" version that you can try before you buy.

[Autopilot]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

It's not, it's fully open and manageable using the extensively documented UPNP protocol - the thing that Slim Devices are trying to get SqueezeCenter to do but haven't managed it yet.

If it wasn't open, 3rd party controllers couldn't exist; they do.

Er...no. Using a standard networking protocol like UPnP is one thing, the Xbox and Nokia mobiles etc all use UPnP - that does not make them 'open'. Is the software that runs on a sonos open source? Can you get access to the code? Do they actively support community developers - apart from the controllers, where are the other hundreds of plugins? UpNp is open, sort of, but sonos is not. Heck, they even use they own proprietary network (which is very good).

The fact that Squeezecenter does not fully support UpNp is by design, it was designed as an alternative to it - Squeezecenter is much more powerful, flexible (within its own ecosystem), feature rich etc. Why use UPnp and just be part of the crowd when you can build something that does all that and more? It's been very successful too.

They are planning something with Upnp, but it's not that they "haven't managed" - you could build in Upnp very easily, its just that they have only started work and it not a priority. They dont really need it.

[ro53ben]

As with Logitech, Sonos do give access to the source code of the GPL parts of the Sonos code.

Not all of Logitech is "open", in particular the firmware within the controller and players. Sonos can't give access to the DRM functionality for services like Napster and Rhapsody hence those areas of code remain closed for legal reasons.

If Sonos needed to run 100MB or so of code on a PC in order to run, maybe it would be open source. But no such software exists, as Sonos doesn't need it.

[Autopilot]

Ok, cool banana's, so anyway let us know how you get on with Squidgy

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by Autopilot

Ok, cool banana's, so anyway let us know how you get on with Squidgy

I've already read an initial review on the Slim forums and it doesn't seem too promising. No ability to control multiple players or, from what I've read, not even any sync control at all.

Not sure I'm going to drop £4.99 on a controller that is even less multi-room than the SBC. At least iPeng appears to make an attempt at multi-room control.

[Autopilot]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

I've already read an initial review on the Slim forums and it doesn't seem too promising. No ability to control multiple players or, from what I've read, not even any sync control at all.

Not sure I'm going to drop £4.99 on a controller that is even less multi-room than the SBC. At least iPeng appears to make an attempt at multi-room control.

Yeah, just been reading that. Basically i think it was rushed out to try and beat iSqueeze and iPeng. I guess they will try and snatch a few early adaptors, then add more features and hope the customer stick with it.

[davepuma]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

I've already read an initial review on the Slim forums and it doesn't seem too promising. No ability to control multiple players or, from what I've read, not even any sync control at all.

Not sure I'm going to drop £4.99 on a controller that is even less multi-room than the SBC. At least iPeng appears to make an attempt at multi-room control.

If you only have one duet, why would you want/need multi-room support?

I do need multi-room myself so will check out ipeng/isqueeze® (!!) when it appears on my 1st gen itouch when I get home.

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by davepuma

If you only have one duet, why would you want/need multi-room support?

Softsqueeze...

[fiveforty]

Originally Posted by ro53ben

Take a look at Sonos - iPhone Controller to see it in action.

thanks a lot for the link... makes it easier to see the workings of the systems rather than just reading about them.

do the iPhone and iPod Touch controllers do exactly the same as the Sonos controller, or are there a few extra things the sonos controller can do??

just wanting to know if the £279 price tag for the sonos controller gives you something extra compared to the £159 of the touch?

[ro53ben]

Originally Posted by fiveforty

thanks a lot for the link... makes it easier to see the workings of the systems rather than just reading about them.

do the iPhone and iPod Touch controllers do exactly the same as the Sonos controller, or are there a few extra things the sonos controller can do??

just wanting to know if the £279 price tag for the sonos controller gives you something extra compared to the £159 of the touch?

They do almost exactly the same, with a few slight differences.

1) Currently you can't play Windows Media Player sources from the iPod controller. Hardly anybody uses this function anyway, so i doubt it would affect you.

2) The Sonos controller is water resistant - see YouTube - Sonos - Underwater Love!

3) The Sonos branded manufactured kit comes with a 30-day money back guarantee. You don't like it, you return it.

4) The iPod with software controller uses standard wifi. You need normal wireless access to your home network, from a wireless router or similar, in all the areas of the home you wish to use it. The Sonos controller just needs to be in range of any zone player.

5) You can't currently setup your music library using the iPod controller. You can do this from the Sonos CR100 controller, but you can also do this from any PC/Mac, so it's not usually an issue. You only have to do it once when you first get the system

6) The clock/alarm/sleep timer function is currently not available on the iPod controller. You can still set them from a PC/Mac though and, unless you set your alarm to a different time every day, or regularly change time zones, it won't be a major issue.

That's about it really. I have both here and I prefer one for some things and the other for the rest. Ultimately, they're both excellent controllers and I doubt you'd be disappointed with either.

[BillJohnson]

The great thing about the Sonos/ipod touch combination is that if, like me, you have never had an ipod (shock, horror!) you have finally found an excuse to buy one, and I must admit that I'm impressed.