What are my options for running a squeezebox system.

maj74 · 26-10-2009, 3:59 PM

I want to install a wireless music system across the house.

Obviously my main choices are squeezebox or sonos. In some ways I really like the sonos, but having worked hard to make the whole house work from pronto TSU9600 remote tablets, it's frustrating that the pronto won't run a sonos system. (Unless you use the very expensive Australian solution.)

So to squeezebox, which has a very nice pronto plug in available.

I don't want a computer on 24/7, so was looking at a NAS unit. I now understand the need to run squeeze center and that in reality a NAS isn't really up to the job unless you spend quite a lot of money on it.

I then noticed a comment about the new squeezebox Touch. It seems this runs squeeze center itself? Is this a trimmed version and if so in what way is it trimmed?

Could I buy a standard, cheaper NAS unit with my cd's ripped to it, and use a squeezebox Touch to actually 'run' the squeeze center software, pointed to the music folders on the NAS over the network?

Or does the Touch only work on music from a hard drive plugged in via the USB port?

If the above is possible, is it then ok to have other squeezeplayers around the house talking to the squeeze center software on the Touch?

If all of the above is possible(!) then will the Touch respond to the prontosqueeze plug-in anywhere around the house?

Lots of questions I know! Many thanks for any info on any of them that people can supply.

**amcluesent** · 26-10-2009, 7:18 PM

Hmm, quite a bit to unpack here.

You need to know that the Sqeezebox players (Boom, Radio, Classic, Receiver, Transporter) rely on Squeezebox Server to provide them with the music. *Some* NAS are able to run the Squeezebox Server, as can Windows Home Server and normal PCs for course, plus customised Linux distros like Vortexbox.

The Squeezebox Touch is a hybrid device, containing both a player and a version of Squeezebox Server. That Squeezebox Server is able to serve music from a USB attached disk and can stream to a number of players, including the one in the Touch itself of course. Equally, the player in the Squeezebox Touch can connect to other Squeezebox Servers!

You need to know that all players are controlled by commands being picked up by the Squeezebox Server, which then sends the appropriate commands to the players. That's why a collection of players can be controlled by iPhone apps, the web interface, the Squeezebox Controller etc.

AFIAK the Squeezebox Server in the Touch is 'cut down' in so far as it can't host the same range of plugins as Squeezebox Server on a PC etc.

BTW, your concerns about running a PC 24/7 can be addressed as Squeezebox have a good Wake-On-LAN facility, so the server will sleep until needed.

maj74 · 26-10-2009, 7:56 PM

It doesn't help that there seems to be no consistency in what people call the software. I used the phrase 'squeeze center' because it came from another thread. I do't think it helps that the software has changed it's name over the years. I think people just use the name that they are familiar with.

From what you are saying, the 'Touch' can only use an external USB drive with 'it's' version of squeeze server? It cannot look at a library on a NAS except through another squeeze server installed on a PC?

I know that it is the server software that controls the players, i was asking if the 'cut-down' server software in the 'touch' is capable of sending instructions to other players from the remote.

Your comment about the 'Touch' server software not accepting plug-ins implies I might not be able to use the pronto squeeze software on my TSU9600?

I guess at a simple level I want to know if the 'Touch' is capable of being the 'hub' of a squeezebox network in a house, avoiding trying to use a NAS to run the server software. Just running the NAS as storage is a lot more energy efficient than having to have a computer to run the server.

coolio107 · 26-10-2009, 8:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maj74

It doesn't help that there seems to be no consistency in what people call the software. I used the phrase 'squeeze center' because it came from another thread. I do't think it helps that the software has changed it's name over the years. I think people just use the name that they are familiar with.

Let's call it "Squeezebox Server" or SBS which is the current incarnation of the name.

Quote:

From what you are saying, the 'Touch' can only use an external USB drive with 'it's' version of squeeze server? It cannot look at a library on a NAS except through another squeeze server installed on a PC?

... or on that NAS. Yes.
There are NASs that can run SBS, e.g. ReadyNAS, some Qnap, Thecus, some Synology

Quote:

I know that it is the server software that controls the players, i was asking if the 'cut-down' server software in the 'touch' is capable of sending instructions to other players from the remote.

Yes. You can use TinySC (that's the "cut down" version) to stream to other players as well and you can use a remote to control all of these.

Quote:

Your comment about the 'Touch' server software not accepting plug-ins implies I might not be able to use the pronto squeeze software on my TSU9600?

Urgh. Now you got me. I believe that TinySC is generally able to run plugins but lacks a clean installation interface so you might have to tweak it through SSH.... Not sure though.

Quote:

I guess at a simple level I want to know if the 'Touch' is capable of being the 'hub' of a squeezebox network in a house, avoiding trying to use a NAS to run the server software. Just running the NAS as storage is a lot more energy efficient than having to have a computer to run the server.

Well, as I said: you could run SBS on the NAS...
On the question whether the Pronto SW runs on TinySC, I'd recommend asking here:
Squeezebox Touch - Squeezebox : Community : Forums

maj74 · 26-10-2009, 8:20 PM

Some interesting information here.

I've also just found the following website:
Computer Audio Asylum - Squeezebox Touch announced - John Swenson - September 03, 2009 at 23:52:12

which seems to imply the 'Touch' is more powerful than i first thought.

I know that NAS units can run the server software, but the more I read, the more I get the impression you need to buy a fairly high spec, expensive NAS to be able to run the server software properly.

If the 'Touch' can run it's own version of the the server software properly, and feed other players around the house, and find the music from a NAS simply being used as the library, AND be run using the pronto software, then it seems the simplest solution for me!

**amcluesent** · 26-10-2009, 8:25 PM

>I guess at a simple level I want to know if the 'Touch' is capable of being the 'hub' of a squeezebox network in a house<

IMHO it's still too new to say. Autopilot has beta-tested and streamed video OK from the USB attached disk on a Touch.

Whether a Touch can serve 1,2,3,4,... Squeezebox players IF there's a need to transcode and/or run plugins like iPlayer remains to be seen.

coolio107 · 26-10-2009, 8:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maj74

I've also just found the following website:
Computer Audio Asylum - Squeezebox Touch announced - John Swenson - September 03, 2009 at 23:52:12

good one.

Quote:

I know that NAS units can run the server software, but the more I read, the more I get the impression you need to buy a fairly high spec, expensive NAS to be able to run the server software properly.

That's true.
OTOH, don't expect TinySC to be _that_ much faster. It omits the web server, which helps, yet you could do the same on a NAS with SBS 7.4.
OK, it does have a floating point processor which helps with transcoding stuff and the like, yet I don't know how powerful it will be with that.

maj74 · 26-10-2009, 8:32 PM

Reading the above mentioned website I found, carefully, implies that, yes the pronto software can be used to control the Touch, but that I cannot use a NAS for the storage source, only a USB hard drive.

This does of course mean I presumably could adapt my plan to something like using a DROBO hard drive raid array for my music library, as well as for backup of my computers.

confused88 · 26-10-2009, 8:37 PM

If you plan to get the touch we bother with a NAS at all?
A USB attached storage is a more economical solution and might be as reliable if not more. I believe some people that use a NAS have reported problems after a Squeezeserver update. There should be fewer disruptions on servers running on the Squeezebox touch.

maj74 · 26-10-2009, 8:41 PM

I think, confused88, that's the direction i'm heading.

Another thread with some interesting information I've found:

Re: Squeezebox Touch

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabeer
Hi there,

Are you able to test whether a 2.5" portable usb drive works with this unit?
Im a little worried if the squeezebox can power the drive.

Thanks

I haven't tried any self-powered drives (since I don't have any), but I'd be very surprised if there were problems. The designers mentioned at one point that the Touch is designed to be able to supply a bit more than the spec requires if necessary, just in case someone connects a drive which tries to draw too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raffy
Does anyone here know if the ST will play FLAC files directly off a USB harddrive w/o a computer too? I know it works with a USB HD directly plugged into it but not sure if that only applies to mp3 files.

FLAC works fine.

In the "old days" (SLIMP3 and the oldest Squeezebox), the players could only handle a few formats themselves - SLIMP3 only did MP3, and the first Squeezebox handled WAV and MP3. Nowadays, though, all the players can decode more or less anything onboard. I believe the list for the Touch is MP3, FLAC, OGG Vorbis, WMA, AAC, and WAV/AIFF.

TinySC doesn't support transcoding, so a format not on that list won't work unless you're running a separate server, but enough is supported directly that it probably won't be an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessingx
Hey j4cbo, could you tell us briefly what is lost by running TinySC only instead of the full-blown SC? I've seen no plugins and web ui, but don't know the extent of sacrifices for its small code-base.

Also is the library scanning process similar to SC for a connected HD and TinySC? Rescan entire library or search for new files (which often created dupes in SC in my experience)?

TinySC isn't a rewrite or a separate codebase; it's just the full SqueezeCenter with a bunch of things disabled / removed to keep the memory footprint down. So the only things that are 'lost' are what's been explicitly mentioned. If you feel like hacking around with the device, you can turn some of those features back on (plugins are pretty easy to re-enable; they just won't be supported officially). Months ago I had an early build which hadn't had the Web interface removed yet, and it was the most glacial interface I had ever seen, so don't hold your breath for that one. :P

For scanning nuances, music services, SB2-and-later device support, synchronization, etc., etc., etc., TinySC should be equivalent to the real thing.

The rescan process is, sadly, pretty much the same at the moment. They're worrying on improving new file detection in order to better deal with removable hard drives, so who knows where it'll be by release.

coolio107 · 26-10-2009, 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by confused88

If you plan to get the touch we bother with a NAS at all?
A USB attached storage is a more economical solution and might be as reliable if not more. I believe some people that use a NAS have reported problems after a Squeezeserver update. There should be fewer disruptions on servers running on the Squeezebox touch.

Actually, if storage performance isn't _that_ important you might as well use the Touch as a NAS. It's able to act as an SMB server so you can access the USB drives connected to it over the network

maj74 · 27-10-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolio107

Actually, if storage performance isn't _that_ important you might as well use the Touch as a NAS. It's able to act as an SMB server so you can access the USB drives connected to it over the network

SMB?

coolio107 · 27-10-2009, 1:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maj74

SMB?

The protocol to access a Windows share. What it means is you can access your drive over the network from a PC (or Mac).

confused88 · 27-10-2009, 1:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolio107

Actually, if storage performance isn't _that_ important you might as well use the Touch as a NAS. It's able to act as an SMB server so you can access the USB drives connected to it over the network

This is what I plan to do. Add a WD passport, or a large flash drive to the Touch.

maj74 · 27-10-2009, 2:11 PM

The only fly in the ointment at the moment with regards to using the USB drive as a backup as well as for music vault is that apparently the drive used on the touch can only be formatted to FAT32 at the moment. NTFS may come at a later date but is not guaranteed as yet. AFAIK!

maj74 · 27-10-2009, 2:14 PM

If I want to use RAID to keep mirrors of drives, I believe the drives have to be ntfs formatted?

coolio107 · 27-10-2009, 2:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maj74

If I want to use RAID to keep mirrors of drives, I believe the drives have to be ntfs formatted?

Then you'd better get a decent NAS or server an run SBS on that.

maj74 · 27-10-2009, 3:28 PM

If I use a drobo storage box, they can be formatted in FAT32 and still mirror data themselves (as they don't use conventional RAID)

Drobo may not be the cheapest data storage solution, but a combination of squeezebox touch with it's own server software, and a drobo music library ought to be staggeringly easy to use!

colantra · 27-10-2009, 7:37 PM

Isn't the main problem with using a USB drive attached to the Touch, how to get new music onto it from say a PC that rips the CD's?

Ramtech · 27-10-2009, 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colantra

Isn't the main problem with using a USB drive attached to the Touch, how to get new music onto it from say a PC that rips the CD's?

I think it depends on if it has read/write access over smb...

If a windows computer can see the drive over smb share then its just a case of drag and drop....

coolio107 · 28-10-2009, 8:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramtech

I think it depends on if it has read/write access over smb...

If a windows computer can see the drive over smb share then its just a case of drag and drop....

That works.

robfitzp · 28-10-2009, 8:29 PM

Slightly off topic but how powerful does a PC need to be to run squeeze centre for say, 3 squeezeboxes, probably with a few plugins like the I player one?

I was thinking of building a PC using a dual core atom itx board as would be sorted for about £300 inc a 1.5tb hard disk - seems better value than a beefy nas box like the qnap239.

Have never used a squeezebox but have preordered a touch to have a play with.

Cheers
Rob

coolio107 · 28-10-2009, 8:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robfitzp

Slightly off topic but how powerful does a PC need to be to run squeeze centre for say, 3 squeezeboxes, probably with a few plugins like the I player one?

I was thinking of building a PC using a dual core atom itx board as would be sorted for about £300 inc a 1.5tb hard disk - seems better value than a beefy nas box like the qnap239.

Anything that is powerful enough to run WinXP should do.
I use a 1GHz ViaC7 w/ 1GB RAM for 7 SBs with various plugins and while this is not really fast it works fine.
Your Atom setup looks definitely like a fast solution.
The main issue with most NAS boxes is the lack of a floating point processor.

robfitzp · 28-10-2009, 9:26 PM

Thanks for the help.

Would you run XP or would I be better off looking at something like ubuntu?

Cheers
Rob

coolio107 · 28-10-2009, 9:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robfitzp

Would you run XP or would I be better off looking at something like ubuntu?

Ubuntu.
Works much better, Windows scheduling is not exactly good.
Or you have a look at VortexBox, that's a Linux distribution that comes with anything you might want with your Squeezebox.

But I use mainly ubuntu, it comes as a server distribution which is really lean (although you have to install some things manually then) or a desktop distribution which is really complete...

maj74 · 28-10-2009, 10:09 PM

Bear in mind, if you've ordered a Touch, you may not need to run a seperate machine with Squeezebox server anyway. Touch runs the server software itself.

Whether it will be powerful enough to run how you want it to is unknown yet, but might be better to wait and find out than buy and setup a machine you might not need.

dec-pvr · 28-10-2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robfitzp

Slightly off topic but how powerful does a PC need to be to run squeeze centre for say, 3 squeezeboxes, probably with a few plugins like the I player one?

I was thinking of building a PC using a dual core atom itx board as would be sorted for about £300 inc a 1.5tb hard disk - seems better value than a beefy nas box like the qnap239.

Have never used a squeezebox but have preordered a touch to have a play with.

Cheers
Rob

If you are interested in doing this, then I'd recommend Vortexbox. I built my own dual core Atom, 2GB RAM, 1.5TB HDD one (with a built in DVD drive for auto ripping of CD's) for about £250 all in.

I used this case, you may also want to look at this thread where someone else is also building their own with a slightly different case.

It will rip, tag, download cover-art and then stream with Squeezebox Server. It can also be used as a general NAS.

robfitzp · 29-10-2009, 12:29 PM

Thanks all.

I was intending to build a separate server as I understand that the touch cannot run plugins and I need something to rip cds anyway.

Was thinking of the zotac ion dual core atom board with the dc psu inbuilt as this would be capable of general use as well as running squeezecentre. Not sure if there are linux drivers for this but have not really looked yet.

Will have a look at the vortexbox, thanks.

Cheers
Rob