[CH_Peter]

"He's bought himself a free kick".

"He's earned himself a penalty, there."

No. HE cheated.

Honestly, the slightest touch. The merest hint of contact. The playacting. The "agony". Going down like you've been taken out by a sniper. This isn't sport. It's not a professional foul. It's cheating.

So, what can be done?

[Wild Weasel]

A straight red card would stop it dead.

[lostinspace]

Yep. Straight red card, AND points deductions for every booking and sending off a team gets.

Then ban persistent offenders from the game.
It's supposed to be a sport, and my tests of a sport is whether something is played in a sporting manner.

But then who would play for professional football teams? By my definition, I note that from the team which won two trophies, Rooney (over aggressive foul mouthed to$$er), Ronaldo (weeble), Ferdinand (nobody forgets a drugs test), and Scholes (too hot headed nowadays) at least would not be playing professionally at all, letting alone getting millions and lots of honours.

But it's the same at every club, not just them. Money first, winning second, sport third.

Men don't fall down that easily, so if it's a man's game, fair enough. If it's a foul, fair enough. But they can't have it both ways?!?

[y2k]

Originally Posted by lostinspace

But then who would play for professional football teams? By my definition, I note that from the team which won two trophies, Rooney (over aggressive foul mouthed to$$er), Ronaldo (weeble), Ferdinand (nobody forgets a drugs test), and Scholes (too hot headed nowadays) at least would not be playing professionally at all, letting alone getting millions and lots of honours.

Let me guess, not a United fan?

Ronney has calmed down a lot these days, Ronaldo does not dive nowhere near as much as he used to even though he gets kicked all over the pitch every game, Ferdinand didnt fail he forgot to turn up (if thats what you trying to say), nothing wrong with the way Scholes plays!!!

[overkill]

Originally Posted by CH_Peter

"He's bought himself a free kick".

"He's earned himself a penalty, there."

No. HE cheated.

Honestly, the slightest touch. The merest hint of contact. The playacting. The "agony". Going down like you've been taken out by a sniper. This isn't sport. It's not a professional foul. It's cheating.

So, what can be done?

Too true. It started in the 60's, got worse in the 70's eased off a bit in the late 80's, but has reached epidemic proportions in the prem era.

The difference is now, is that it's become (by the football establishment) accepted as part of the game.

How do we stop it? Well, barring a sea change in thinking it's not going to happen. In particular as certain clubs receive more 'leniency' with regards cheating than others.

All that would happen is the less powerful clubs would see their players getting booked and red carded all the time, while the worst offenders carry on getting away with it.

Avram Grant, for once, was absolutely spot on. There is one rule for one club, and one for the rest.

How can you stop 'cheating' when that goes on?

[Ian_S]

I blame the FA, UEFA and FIFA.

There's a simple way to punish cheating diving etc. All games are recorded, and the FA should watch each game each week. It's obvious on TV when someone has dived etc, and the cameras catch all the things the referees miss.

Whilst I don't think you can retrospectively change a result, I see no reason why they can't hand out bookings and fines, and that the bookings handed out from video should count for more points towards suspension totals, and carry mandatory fines. So, a yellow via video is equivalent to 2 yellows on the pitch and the number of games you're suspended for from a red card is more if handed out via video.

So if teams persistently cheat then they'll end up with more suspensions and fines.

This stupid 'gentlemans' agreement that the FA won't go back and correct a referee if they got it wrong is just daft. Yes refs get it wrong, they always will, we all make mistakes. There's no shame in the FA correcting it on those offences that warrant it.

The first season they do it, it will be messy to start with, but I bet you will see a quick reduction in cheating., and trying to get away with things out of view of the ref.

Only dock clubs points for persistent indescretions wuch as continued harassment of referees. Do it three times, lose three points.

I also think a sin bin would be a good idea too. If a player gets his handbag out as they sometimes do. 10mins in the bin, especially for dissent.

[CH_Peter]

I thought of the sin bin, but in most games, it would be 5-a-side before 20 minutes was up!

Video reviews to punish cheating and misconduct (notably, badgering the ref) should be introduced, IMO.

[the.godfather]

Originally Posted by lostinspace

But then who would play for professional football teams? By my definition, I note that from the team which won two trophies, Rooney (over aggressive foul mouthed to$$er), Ronaldo (weeble), Ferdinand (nobody forgets a drugs test), and Scholes (too hot headed nowadays) at least would not be playing professionally at all, letting alone getting millions and lots of honours.

And yet we still did the double this year. European Champions and Premier League Champions. Not bad for a squad that consists of a foul mouth, weeble, druggy, and a hot head.

I'd rather have a squad full of those players than an angelic squad that wins nothing.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

I blame the FA, UEFA and FIFA.

There's a simple way to punish cheating diving etc. All games are recorded, and the FA should watch each game each week. It's obvious on TV when someone has dived etc, and the cameras catch all the things the referees miss.

Whilst I don't think you can retrospectively change a result, I see no reason why they can't hand out bookings and fines, and that the bookings handed out from video should count for more points towards suspension totals, and carry mandatory fines. So, a yellow via video is equivalent to 2 yellows on the pitch and the number of games you're suspended for from a red card is more if handed out via video.

So if teams persistently cheat then they'll end up with more suspensions and fines.

This stupid 'gentlemans' agreement that the FA won't go back and correct a referee if they got it wrong is just daft. Yes refs get it wrong, they always will, we all make mistakes. There's no shame in the FA correcting it on those offences that warrant it.

The first season they do it, it will be messy to start with, but I bet you will see a quick reduction in cheating., and trying to get away with things out of view of the ref.

Only dock clubs points for persistent indescretions wuch as continued harassment of referees. Do it three times, lose three points.

I also think a sin bin would be a good idea too. If a player gets his handbag out as they sometimes do. 10mins in the bin, especially for dissent.

But the same problem applies. There is one rule for some and not for others. If the football authorities only (as they do now) punish the teams deemed 'too big, rich and successful to be touched' then the whole exercise is a waste of time.

Because the big, rich and too successful to be touched are the worst offenders.

@thegodfather, I'd rather win nothing than keep relying on refs to help my team win things by doing an excellent impression of Nelson.

[lostinspace]

Originally Posted by the.godfather

And yet we still did the double this year. European Champions and Premier League Champions. Not bad for a squad that consists of a foul mouth, weeble, druggy, and a hot head.

I'd rather have a squad full of those players than an angelic squad that wins nothing.

My point is that if cheats etc were excluded from playing, those mentioned would not even have been eligible to play in the match.
I despair that someone would rather have a team full of cheats (admitted by the poster) and win, than turn football back into a sport and let the best team win.
But that's what is wrong with football in particular and sport in general-win at any cost and bugger whether it's fair or not. And this is why football team supporters and football enthusiasts are rarely the same thing.

NB I love football, just hate footballers. They cheat, dive, don't follow the rules etc, and many so called football supporters don't see anything wrong with it.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by lostinspace

NB I love football, just hate footballers. They cheat, dive, don't follow the rules etc, and many so called football supporters don't see anything wrong with it.

Ditto. I love football, but I despise footballers. Oh, and the football establishment.

Footballers have never been 'nice' but as Danny Blanchflower rightly warned right back in 1961, if you give someone too much power and too much money that brings out the worst in anyone.

As footballers are generally greedy little gits in the first place, well.................

I must admit the general acceptance that cheating is part of the game, and the fact that many fans are happy to win with teams, or large numbers of players in their teams that do cheat, really worries me.

[Chrisoldinho]

Originally Posted by y2k

Let me guess, not a United fan?

Ronney has calmed down a lot these days, Ronaldo does not dive nowhere near as much as he used to even though he gets kicked all over the pitch every game, Ferdinand didnt fail he forgot to turn up (if thats what you trying to say), nothing wrong with the way Scholes plays!!!

let me guess a united fan? and sorry i hate the term united because there are many united's - manchester are just one cheshire team that carry the name....

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Chrisoldinho

let me guess a united fan? and sorry i hate the term united because there are many united's - manchester are just one cheshire team that carry the name....

They are?

I could have sworn Manchester was in Lancashire, and now part of 'Greater Manchester'.

[branny]

Originally Posted by the.godfather

And yet we still did the double this year.

Are you on about Manchester United here or some team in Romford, Essex. I'm just confused by the term 'We'. Let me guess, your 'Mam and Dad are from Manchester' and you 'have a season ticket' or 'you've moved down south' but always been a United fan'.

Moving to the subject in hand - as much as some of this is references to Manchester Utd cheating - *** come on. Every team does it, every nation does it (going back to Italy and Argentina to at least the 50's) and it WILL NOT change. End of. But I'll tell you what, it makes for a great debate!

[overkill]

Originally Posted by branny

Are you on about Manchester United here or some team in Romford, Essex. I'm just confused by the term 'We'. Let me guess, your 'Mam and Dad are from Manchester' and you 'have a season ticket' or 'you've moved down south' but always been a United fan'.

Moving to the subject in hand - as much as some of this is references to Manchester Utd cheating - *** come on. Every team does it, every nation does it (going back to Italy and Argentina to at least the 50's) and it WILL NOT change. End of. But I'll tell you what, it makes for a great debate!

No-one said they don't. However, some teams do it a lot more, and more importantly 99 times out of 100 not only get away with it, but it brings them unprecedented success.

Very few teams have that charge laid at their door, and one stands out.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by the.godfather

And yet we still did the double this year. European Champions and Premier League Champions. Not bad for a squad that consists of a foul mouth, weeble, druggy, and a hot head.

I'd rather have a squad full of those players than an angelic squad that wins nothing.

And people wonder why manchester united are such a despised team!

The only reason you won the premiership is because the referee against wigan didn't have the bottle to officiate the game correctly. And you were very lucky in moscow, largely attributed to another tit of a footballer, Drogba! Maybe Manchester united should buy him, then you can have the monopoly on all the ***** in football.

[branny]

Originally Posted by overkill

No-one said they don't. However, some teams do it a lot more, and more importantly 99 times out of 100 not only get away with it, but it brings them unprecedented success.

Very few teams have that charge laid at their door, and one stands out.

Like I said, makes great debate.

Personally I think your talking out your pipe their. Every team 'cheats' eg 'time wastes' or a player gets 'injured' when their in front. When your losing, of course the opposition is 'cheating'.

The only reason you hear about Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal 'playing the ref' is that they are forever on the back page. Lets face it, Macclesfield v's Stockport doesn't have the same draw.

[lostinspace]

I didn't mean to turn this into a man u knocking thread. I used them because they are top of the tree, and as others have said, pretty much all players will cheat in some way to get an UNfair advantage.
But teams at the top are always going to be a target.
As a (sort of) Leeds fan, I am not a newcomer to players who can "bend the rules", but at no time did I ever condone it!

[overkill]

Originally Posted by branny

Like I said, makes great debate.

Personally I think your talking out your pipe their. Every team 'cheats' eg 'time wastes' or a player gets 'injured' when their in front. When your losing, of course the opposition is 'cheating'.

The only reason you hear about Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal 'playing the ref' is that they are forever on the back page. Lets face it, Macclesfield v's Stockport doesn't have the same draw.

Not a bit of it. I watch football at three levels, every week, and while yes, there is even at Tranmere the odd (laughable) dive or going down as if shot, compared to the top flight it's not even noteworthy, compared to the top four it's microscopic amount, and compared to Utd, and the consequences of Utd's cheating, it's not even in the same universe.

I suggest, before commenting you take a look (a long hard look) at what's going on.

What's going on the back pages has no effect on me at all. Basically because I don't read them.

Besides, since when have the media made a fuss about Utd's cheating? It's the fans that get naffed off with it, not the press, so that's that idea out of the window.

[Steven]

Found a great vid:
El mayor 'piscinazo' de la historia del fútbol - Marca.com

[RMCF]

We also need to get the commentators, like Andy Gray especially, to stop condoning it.

He is becoming a bit of an advocate for cheating. You hear lines like:

"he should have went down there"

or

"he bought that freekick"

all the time from him.

[gosties]

That penalty decision in that video is ridiculous either the "ref is on the take" or he should have "gone to specsavers". Never mind it's still hilarious though.

[lostinspace]

Originally Posted by RMCF

We also need to get the commentators, like Andy Gray especially, to stop condoning it.

He is becoming a bit of an advocate for cheating. You hear lines like:

"he should have went down there"

or

"he bought that freekick"

all the time from him.

Shearer is just as bad. It amazes me that in one breath, it's a man's game. But in the other, thwey are "entitled to go down" if touched!
Football isn't a sport anymore as it's no longer played by sportsmen. maybe footy should be moved to general topics?

[CH_Peter]

Originally Posted by lostinspace

Shearer is just as bad. It amazes me that in one breath, it's a man's game. But in the other, thwey are "entitled to go down" if touched!
Football isn't a sport anymore as it's no longer played by sportsmen. maybe footy should be moved to general topics?

The only time you're entitled to "go down" [insert witty innuendo of choosing here] is when you can't stay on your feet. End of. Anyone rolling four times grabbing their leg, screaming in agony and then walking 3 minutes later: red card. Faker.

[GasDad]

Originally Posted by CH_Peter

"He's bought himself a free kick".

"He's earned himself a penalty, there."

No. HE cheated.

Honestly, the slightest touch. The merest hint of contact. The playacting. The "agony". Going down like you've been taken out by a sniper. This isn't sport. It's not a professional foul. It's cheating.

So, what can be done?

To an extent I'd agree with you, but:

Those who watch live games will know just how fast the game, at the premiership level is. We (Bristol Rovers) entertained two top flight clubs last season, the difference in acceleration was immense and something you can't really see on TV. A small knock on the legs at that speed will mean you stumble and possibly fall over. (of course whether this is a foul or not is a different debate).

Also lots of people have their shirts pulled - which isn't really a problem, until they let go, and again at speed, you will probably fall over as you become unbalanced.

Unless you want everyone to be fitted with accelerometers etc (so you can tell when contact is made), even post match video analysis is never going to be 100%.

[enablerbro1]

Originally Posted by LFC_SL

Found a great vid:
El mayor 'piscinazo' de la historia del fútbol - Marca.com

Maybe there was contact with the defender when he ran past.

[avinitski]

regarding players getting penalties etc, the rules state there just has to be contact with intent, it doesn't say by how much, just contact. if a player makes a little bit of meal to emphasise he's been impeded then some would argue that is ok.

of course when there is clearly no contact that's a different story.

[Yemeth]

IMO as long as the contact actually obstructed or altered the player's movement in any way as to give a disadvantage = penalty.

The rules are so played out and tossed back and forth that the only way forward is to use analytical on-pitch robots and cameras.

Then again, how do you actually judge 'intention' on (say) handball decisions?

Im sided with the OP (albeit this thread was started a while back). Cheating is cheating, "no he did not trip you, yes, if you made the slightest effort to remain on your feet, you wouldnt have planted your face in the dirt".

[gosties]

RE:- That Penalty Video

It must have been the marksman on the "grassy knoll".

[davidjohnson]

Originally Posted by CH_Peter

The only time you're entitled to "go down" [insert witty innuendo of choosing here] is when you can't stay on your feet. End of.

The thing is, if a striker is knocked off balance by an illegal challenge, it may not be enough for him to fall down, but may be enough to cause him to lose the half a yard he needs to score a goal.