[la gran siete]

dislike the English football team as much as Celtic fans?Just wondered as I have often seen a Union flag fluttering amongst the Gers fans whilst Celitic mob hold the Irish flag aloft. I guess when England play Scotalnd you throw them flags in the bin and all carry St andrews flags?

[Kazuya Mishima]

It's been a long-held myth/opinion/whatever that Rangers fans, in general, are not as fervent Scotland supporters as the rest of us are....

Then again a lot of the Celtic support are Rep. of Ireland fans.

[pixelpixel]

Some Celtic fans don't even live in Scotland. What about Northern Ireland flags also.....red hand of ulster and all that !

I can see this all going down hill very quickly

[doopydug]

Theres a lot of irish support for Celtic but I doubt very much whether true football fans feel any differently about the english whether they are rangers or celtic fans

[Kazuya Mishima]

Originally Posted by pixelpixel

I can see this all going down hill very quickly

[johnscarlet]

As soon as this becomes a Rangers / Celtic slanging match , I'll close it . Banter is fine , but keep religion out of it please !! I have enough of that in GC , I don't need it in Sport as well

[Graham27]

I think it's fair to say that there's a bit more "sympathy" for the English national squad at Ibrox than there is at Parkhead.

Reason ? Partly due to the period with Souness in charge, where we had half the England team in our squad

There are obvious other more significant reasons too, but it's kinda impossible to explain fully without this topic going the wrong way. All I could say is that certain sections of the Rnagers fans wave the Union flag because they're more in favour of that "Union" than certain sections of the Celtic fans.

I wouldn't say either Rangers or Celtic fans are any less behind Scotland because of these "other" allegiances, though sometimes it's hard to believe and understand that. Some of the "other" flags are only waved to annoy the other support anyway !

[pixelpixel]

Originally Posted by Graham27

I wouldn't say either Rangers or Celtic fans are any less behind Scotland because of these "other" allegiances, though sometimes it's hard to believe and understand that. Some of the "other" flags are only waved to annoy the other support anyway !

So true

[Graham27]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

dislike the English football team as much as Celtic fans?Just wondered as I have often seen a Union flag fluttering amongst the Gers fans

Just reading that again, I do hope you're not suggesting the Union flag represents England ?

We reserve the right to wave British flags whilst still disliking your national team

[Graham27]

Double post... sorry...

[Dony]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

dislike the English football team as much as Celtic fans?Just wondered as I have often seen a Union flag fluttering amongst the Gers fans whilst Celitic mob hold the Irish flag aloft. I guess when England play Scotalnd you throw them flags in the bin and all carry St andrews flags?

The reason the Irish tri-colour is flown at Celtic Park is that the immigrant population played a part in it's formation. For that reason there has always been an affinity for Celtic by many Irish people and that has been reciprocated by the club.

[andytabor]

rangers fan are generally very pro british union, protestants hence the union jacks etc. celtic fans are generally catholics.

you can imagine with the troubles in ireland and the heat of football in general theres been a lot of friction between the clubs.

more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Firm

[DarkEntity]

Its mostly the ignorant knuckle draggers holding the union flags and likewise the Irish flags. You think after all this time they if they wanted to hold those flags they would all **** off and leave Scotland to the Scots and Scottish fans.

Its ridiculous that these idiots prance about with flags that have nothing to do with football.

[andytabor]

Originally Posted by DarkEntity

Its mostly the ignorant knuckle draggers holding the union flags and likewise the Irish flags. You think after all this time they if they wanted to hold those flags they would all **** off and leave Scotland to the Scots and Scottish fans.

Its ridiculous that these idiots prance about with flags that have nothing to do with football.

absolutely, it would be nice to see more people taking pride in them both being scottish clubs.

[kendoll]

Originally Posted by andytabor

absolutely, it would be nice to see more people taking pride in them both being scottish clubs.

Hummed and hah-ed about posting this but....

Maybe I am being controversial here, but I don't see why waving the Union Flag is an issue. It is the flag of the United Kingdom, of which Scotland is a part. I am proud of my Scottish heritage (as established in discussions in another thread in GC ), but I don't see that waving a Union Flag would indicate that you are not taking pride in the club being Scottish.

When people talk about Rangers as one of the 'British' clubs taking part in the Champions League it is fine, but waving a Union Jack is an issue?

I appreciate that some people wave it as a political statement, or to make some kind of point (or be confrontational), but I don't see that the Union Jack being waved at a Scottish ground is inherently 'bad'. There are a lot of English and Northern Irish Rangers fans as well as Scottish Rangers fans (and others), so the Union Jack is common ground.

Maybe not growing up in Scotland has made me naive?

I would agree that a football ground is not the ideal place for expressing political viewpoints.

[DarkEntity]

Originally Posted by kendoll

Hummed and hah-ed about posting this but....

Maybe I am being controversial here, but I don't see why waving the Union Flag is an issue. It is the flag of the United Kingdom, of which Scotland is a part. I am proud of my Scottish heritage (as established in discussions in another thread in GC ), but I don't see that waving a Union Flag would indicate that you are not taking pride in the club being Scottish.

When people talk about Rangers as one of the 'British' clubs taking part in the Champions League it is fine, but waving a Union Jack is an issue?

I appreciate that some people wave it as a political statement, or to make some kind of point (or be confrontational), but I don't see that the Union Jack being waved at a Scottish ground is inherently 'bad'. There are a lot of English and Northern Irish Rangers fans as well as Scottish Rangers fans (and others), so the Union Jack is common ground.

Maybe not growing up in Scotland has made me naive?

I would agree that a football ground is not the ideal place for expressing political viewpoints.

Be British if you want, but the Union Flags have absolutely nothing to do with it, they are being waved for much deeper reasons than that and you and everyone within the Glasgow area know it. Its exactly the same for the Irish Flags. They are all for religion and nothing else.

Its truely pathetic.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by DarkEntity

Its mostly the ignorant knuckle draggers holding the union flags and likewise the Irish flags. You think after all this time they if they wanted to hold those flags they would all **** off and leave Scotland to the Scots and Scottish fans.

Its ridiculous that these idiots prance about with flags that have nothing to do with football.

Since, without turning this into a slanging match, both clubs were formed out of sectarian roots, in particular Rangers, as unlike Celtic they weren't founded specifically by a religious group and the 'anti-Catholic' element attached itself to the club, it's inevitable that that affiliation is carried on down the generations. That doesn't mean that they are all 'knuckle draggers' any more than all those who still support the 'cause' but don't carry flags, are.

Personally I would rather neither club had such elements attached to them, same as it would be better if Dundee and Utd didn't, nor Hearts and Hibs. But all of them owe their formation to one group or another, so whatever happens, it will continue to manifest itself.

The hope is, that as sectarianism in Ireland itself, and the rest of the UK is slowly being laid to rest, that the more unpleasant aspects of 'showing your colours' will vanish too. The evidence suggests, going on the decline from the appalling heights of violence in years gone by, that is indeed what is happening.

[DarkEntity]

I think you should spend a little time in Glasgow during the period before and after the 2 lots of morons meet for a "football" match

[Graham27]

Originally Posted by overkill

Since, without turning this into a slanging match, both clubs were formed out of sectarian roots, in particular Rangers, as unlike Celtic they weren't founded specifically by a religious group and the 'anti-Catholic' element attached itself to the club, it's inevitable that that affiliation is carried on down the generations. That doesn't mean that they are all 'knuckle draggers' any more than all those who still support the 'cause' but don't carry flags, are.

Well put.

Originally Posted by DarkEntity

and you and everyone within the Glasgow area know it... They are all for religion and nothing else.

No, we don't all know that.

Many (indeed most) of the flag carriers are doing it out of religious spite, but not all. There are several British and Irish supporters groups of the relevant teams, and they're well within their rights to fly the flag of whoever they choose, supporting their own, and their teams, heritage.

So I'd rather not tar them all with the same brush

I think you should spend a little time in Glasgow during the period before and after the 2 lots of morons meet for a "football" match

By "morons" I hope you're referring solely to the trouble makers, and not to everyone involved ? Also, if you're suggesting that the trouble surrounding the matches (disgraceful as it is) is as bad now as it used to be, you must be forgetting what it used to be like.

[mason]

to ehco one or two post.. we are a scottish club and part of britian, so i dont think that waiving a union jack is all that bad. we are proud of our roots and proud to be part of the monarchy and the like.

yes there me be deeper thoughts than that but thats my view.

i onlt favour scotland to england in terms of football because the english fans (in general) think that they are world beaters and favour themselves as the best of the best..... just becuase their league is one of the best doesnt give them the reason to think that their national team is the best of the best.... thats what turms me against supporting them as a nation.

as for celtic..... i dont like all this republican (ireland) affiliation simply because they are a scottish team based in scaotland/britain..... but thats they way it is and the way it will always be.

as for scottish football in the whole.... i wanted to see celtic (for scottish football reasons) get through to the last 16 of the champions league as well as rangers (my home team) unfortunately it didnt turn out that way.

as for them doing well in the league etc... then thats a different matter

[DarkEntity]

Originally Posted by Graham27

Well put.

No, we don't all know that.

Many (indeed most) of the flag carriers are doing it out of religious spite, but not all. There are several British and Irish supporters groups of the relevant teams, and they're well within their rights to fly the flag of whoever they choose, supporting their own, and their teams, heritage.

So I'd rather not tar them all with the same brush

By "morons" I hope you're referring solely to the trouble makers, and not to everyone involved ? Also, if you're suggesting that the trouble surrounding the matches (disgraceful as it is) is as bad now as it used to be, you must be forgetting what it used to be like.

I never once mentioned it is as bad as it was, its still intolerable though, they both talk a good game but do very little to stop or control the issues. Lets look back to the early games in the year when the Rangers "fans" sang sectarian songs, which were reported to the powers, absolutely nothing was done.

In this day and age, football should be left to be about what it is, a game where grown men kick a ball about. The fact its still all about religion between these 2 is truely pathetic.

[Graham27]

Originally Posted by DarkEntity

I never once mentioned it is as bad as it was, its still intolerable though, they both talk a good game but do very little to stop or control the issues. Lets look back to the early games in the year when the Rangers "fans" sang sectarian songs, which were reported to the powers, absolutely nothing was done.

There's many complaints about sectarian chanting, at both grounds, far more than just the ones you read about in the papers. Likewise, there's far more sectarian chanting, at both grounds, that you possibly realise. There's plenty of obscure songs that contain far more vitriolic content than the ones that are easy to identify on TV.

At the same time, there's probably more work done behind the scenes to try and cut this down than many people realise. Not all of the season ticket confiscations and prosecutions make it into the news. And what's heartening is that many of the real "fans" do the complaining.

In this day and age, football should be left to be about what it is, a game where grown men kick a ball about. The fact its still all about religion between these 2 is truely pathetic.

Again, it's not all about religion. For some that's all it is, but to an awful lot of people it plays no part in it. For many of us it's a rivalry with our fiercest rivals, nothing to do with what religion they are.

I appreciate fully what part religion plays for many, but if you took religion away there'd still be a massive divide, and huge grudge matches, like there are in Milan, London or Liverpool.

[alaniho]

Originally Posted by kendoll

I appreciate that some people wave it as a political statement, or to make some kind of point (or be confrontational), but I don't see that the Union Jack being waved at a Scottish ground is inherently 'bad'. There are a lot of English and Northern Irish Rangers fans as well as Scottish Rangers fans (and others), so the Union Jack is common ground.

Good point Kendoll, rather than critisising different flag wavers i think its more important to tolerate all different flags whether Union Jack, Tricolour, Scottish or whatever. There are scumbags attached to all clubs but i don't follow the PC idea that all flags should be banned. Even at Old Trafford there are all sorts of different national flags waved and shows a great diversity of support IMHO.

[DarkEntity]

Originally Posted by alaniho

Good point Kendoll, rather than critisising different flag wavers i think its more important to tolerate all different flags whether Union Jack, Tricolour, Scottish or whatever. There are scumbags attached to all clubs but i don't follow the PC idea that all flags should be banned. Even at Old Trafford there are all sorts of different national flags waved and shows a great diversity of support IMHO.

Being not from Glasgow you have no idea what so ever. Its nothing to do with diversity, not one shred unfortunately..

If you lived here you would know.

Ps the Union Jack, "jack" is the pole the flag hangs on, its the Union Flag

[Graham27]

Originally Posted by DarkEntity

If you lived here you would know.

Again, that's quite a blanket statement. I live here, always have done, and I appreciate at least SOME of the people waving flags aren't doing it out of malice.

Ps the Union Jack, "jack" is the pole the flag hangs on, its the Union Flag

Ah, do you mean on a ship, as in jack staff ? If so, isn't the flag, when in place, known as a jack ? Hence Union Flag+Jack staff=Union Jack ? Anyway, I'm led to believe there is no definitive answer regarding this.

And more importantly, regardless of the various arguments about how the term came about, nowadays the term "Union Jack" can be, and frequently is, used officially

[DarkEntity]

Union Jack is used all the time, but it technically incorrect. The Jack has always been the standard bearer/pole they hang the flag on.

But thats neither here nor there. My main point wether people mean it with malace or not is that national flags have no place in a football game, wave team flags yes, wave any flag you like but not one that can and does incite violence and mean the Police have to waste valuable time patrolling these games rather than hunting real criminals, like Rapists, murderers etc.

[alaniho]

Originally Posted by DarkEntity

Being not from Glasgow you have no idea what so ever. Its nothing to do with diversity, not one shred unfortunately..

If you lived here you would know.

Ps the Union Jack, "jack" is the pole the flag hangs on, its the Union Flag

i think we have some flag waving over here in Northern Ireland too, i can even see some union flags/jacks from where i am sitting now !!! And i do have some idea of what its about.

i was trying to make the point that if someone feels wound up by a flag then the problem is with the individual and not the flag.

[Graham27]

Originally Posted by DarkEntity

Union Jack is used all the time, but it technically incorrect. The Jack has always been the standard bearer/pole they hang the flag on

There are many contradictory stories and theories regarding this. I understand that some people regard the flag as the "jack" but it's not universally accepted, far from it. For example, the actual flag that is hung from a jackstaff on a ship is termed a "jack", the jackstaff merely being the staff that the jack hangs on.

Also, Just had a a quick Google and the term "union Jack" referring solely to the flag, seemingly became OK to use in an official capacity about 100 years ago. Whether it is or isn't the original term seems like the subject of much debate, with historians saying they can find earlier references to "union jack" than "union flag", but the simple fact is "union jack" is now an official and endorsed term for the Union Flag, so there's nowt wrong with folk saying it

But thats neither here nor there. My main point wether people mean it with malace or not is that national flags have no place in a football game

So even if there's no malice it's still wrong to wave a national flag ? How so ? So our fans waving Saltires at European games is wrong ? So people waving flags of the nation of their favourite player (such as all the Swedish flags from fans who idolised Larsson) to show support for that player is wrong ? Supporters clubs such as ones we have from Canada waving their national flag (with a club slogan) are wrong too ?

wave team flags yes, wave any flag you like but not one that can and does incite violence and mean the Police have to waste valuable time patrolling these games rather than hunting real criminals, like Rapists, murderers etc.

How often do you think they take someone off a murder case to go on "flag-watch" ?

[mason]

rediculous debate to be honest- flags of alsorts are seen at ALL matches all accross the world and as long as they are not offensive then we do not have a problem.

national flags are acceptable- religious flags, sectarian flags, flags that cause offense are not!

[kendoll]

Originally Posted by mason

rediculous debate to be honest- flags of alsorts are seen at ALL matches all accross the world and as long as they are not offensive then we do not have a problem.

national flags are acceptable- religious flags, sectarian flags, flags that cause offense are not!

Exactly.

And if these flags are being used by the wrong element, we should be reclaiming them for what they are not abonding the use of them.

Just because a particular group adopts something does not mean that everyone else has to give it up to that groups sole use.