[Gary D]

has we head towards another cup final between the 2 biggest clubs in the country the question i have is - has money made football boring for the majority of us? Does your club have any chance of winning anything ever again?

i know that the success of clubs have always been cyclic but these days that seems to be less and less - the more successful you are the more money they earn and the more money the greater yours chances of success next season.

Just wondering what others thing of it - i'm especally interested in the views of members who dont support Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal.

Gary

[DJT75]

Cue Overkill

[po_man]

Can we honestly put Arsenal in that list?

[Abbeygoo]

I think that the amount of money available for just surviving in the premiership for another season makes most teams play scared. Having watched Manchester City all season, I am convinced that survival before anything else is the manager's approach. "As long as we stay up" comes before everything else. Look at several other teams in the premiership - can you honestly say there is much divide between ..... Aston Villa, Bolton, Everton, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, Portsmouth, Blackburn Rovers, Manchester City, West Ham, Fulham, Charlton, Reading, Wigan ...... I don't think so.

The teams that are below half way seem intent on survival at all costs. If City had been more attacking at home this season we would be looking forward to European football not behind us at teams scrapping away at the bottom.

Relegation wasn't the financial disaster it once was. Look at the teams wallowing around in the lower leagues that have all tasted premiership football .... Norwich, Coventry, Ipswich, Sheffield Wednesday, Oldham, Bradford, Nottingham Forest, QPR, Wimbledon (MK Dons), Crystal Palace, Leeds United .... doesn't take a genius to work out that relegation means much more these days than it used to.

City used to keep pretty much the same team and bounced around all the divisions and back again ... now, if you get relegated then the players that took you down all become "too good" to play in the Championship and seek moves elsewhere - whereas your season ticket stays in the same place, watching the same team, as the previous 20 years.

Ironic, if it wasn't so unfair.

[KevD]

I think we are heading for one of the best season endings in many years.

Man U - Chelsea FA Cup Final
Man U - Chelsea Going for title, playing each other 2nd last game.
Man U - Chelsea CL Final??

Man U going for Treble, Chelsea for Quadruple.

Add to that about 5 teams trying to get a Waffa Cup spot and 6 teams battling the drop, I make it five teams battling for nothing while Arsenal & Liverpool battle for third.

That should have enough interest for everyone.

Spurs for the title next year

[arthurdentpc]

Originally Posted by KevD

I think we are heading for one of the best season endings in many years.

Man U - Chelsea FA Cup Final
Man U - Chelsea Going for title, playing each other 2nd last game.
Man U - Chelsea CL Final??

Man U going for Treble, Chelsea for Quadruple.

And this is interesting how ?

[DJT75]

Originally Posted by arthurdentpc

And this is interesting how ?

Because no-one knows who will win any of them yet. No-one's run away with the league this season so for a start it's more interesting than the last few years.

[rrc]

The sad thing that’s happened is that with the right investor, any team can become a premiership superpower almost overnight. It’s no different to winning the lottery. Something needs to change. A wage cap is probably out of the question (employee rights), but I do think that transfers should be capped by cost; £20 million per team/per year would possibly be a good start and would certainly open the market up for other teams, hopefully creating a more competition.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by DJT75

Cue Overkill

Absolutely yes. I'm not even that much of a Liverpool fan anymore (cue CFC). Bar two certain matches, since the turn of the millennium, I just cannot really get excited about football anymore. If as an example I use Sunderland this season, I will praise them... but again something is missing

Has money ruined the beautiful game? 15,000 empty seats at Old Trafford for an FA Cup semi-final yesterday. The premier Cup competition of England and second in Europe. And the FA think they will fill Wembley next season From top to bottom, we will all have different views, but I have only one about Murdoch's billions

[Gary D]

Originally Posted by DJT75

Because no-one knows who will win any of them yet. No-one's run away with the league this season so for a start it's more interesting than the last few years.

the point i'm trying to make is that this is of no interest to anyone else. unless you support one of the big 4 what do you have to look forward too? not being relegated?

normall during the cup final i support the underdog - but this year - i'll just go out for the day.

[WelshBluebird]

There's definatly way too much money in the game.

Look at my team cardiff, for now anyway (until our debt is cleared, which shouldn't be too long). A few years ago, we nearly stopped being a club. We couldn't pay players wages, and we had to get a loan from the PFA. We nearly went into administration again this season aswell (thanks to Hammam).

For the smaller clubs, its a minefield out there. Its brilliant if you can get into the prem because of the financial rewards (IIRC, TV deals alone are worth around £30 million to each club), but for those who get relegated from the prem or are in lower divisons, then its a major issue.

Look at Leeds. Major example yes I know, and it wasn't just down to the huge amounts of money in the game (human error was a large amount to play in it from a certain person, who now happens to be chairman at cardiff). But it just shows that financial issues are there, and if it had not been for those pressures, its possible leeds would be in the premiership now, and not looking at the possibility of League 1 football next season.

Making it boring however? I don't know. Look what the money Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea have spend has done. World class players playing in the premiership week in week out. Yes, I don't appreciate Chelsea "buying" the title, however, would premiership games be as they are without the foreign stars (who wouldn't have come here if it was not for the money).

[DJT75]

Originally Posted by Gary D

the point i'm trying to make is that this is of no interest to anyone else. unless you support one of the big 4 what do you have to look forward too? not being relegated?

normall during the cup final i support the underdog - but this year - i'll just go out for the day.

Being a fan of football in general I can look forward to an even-sided battle at the new Wembley, rather than a one-sided affair. OK money & success has got those 2 to the final ahead of other teams but I'd rather see that than Chelsea v Barnsley this year.

It makes no difference if I support Liverpool or Rochade - I'd still be equally interested & certainly wouldn't miss the game.

It's a separate issue - Has money made football boring for the majority of football fans? & Is this season more interesting than normal?

[BrianC]

Originally Posted by Abbeygoo

I think that the amount of money available for just surviving in the premiership for another season makes most teams play scared. Having watched Manchester City all season, I am convinced that survival before anything else is the manager's approach. "As long as we stay up" comes before everything else. Look at several other teams in the premiership - can you honestly say there is much divide between ..... Aston Villa, Bolton, Everton, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, Portsmouth, Blackburn Rovers, Manchester City, West Ham, Fulham, Charlton, Reading, Wigan ...... I don't think so.

You missed Spurs from that list, this season they aren't any better than Bolton or Reading.

As I see it Man U and Chelsea are nearly as far in front of Liverpool and Arsenal that Liverpool and Arsenal are in front of the rest. Over the next couple of seasons I expect Villa (we'd be there this season if the transfer windows didn't exist) and a couple of other teams to start a serious challenge on 3rd and 4th place. So rather than the big four we'll have the top two and another group of six or seven (mostly made up of clubs newly purchased by big money foreigners). The gap between the rest and the top eight or nine will just get bigger as time goes on, depressing even if you are on the right side of the divide.

[Steven]

To add to the above I should get my username changed...

[Steven]

More anti-football goodness

[Dazed87]

Basically what you're saying is you don't think football is worth watching if the team you support doesn't end up winning the league or the cup, which in all honesty is wrong.

Also, football has always been dominated by a select few clubs over periods of time - the particular clubs that happen to be dominating at a particular time will change but you've still only got about four or so at any one time.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by Dazed87

Basically what you're saying is you don't think football is worth watching if the team you support doesn't end up winning the league or the cup, which in all honesty is wrong.

You plainly missed the point of the thread. No one professes a desire for their team to win - just anyone outside of the usual suspects. When sport ceases to be competitive and a spectacle and instead becomes a predictable road show based on the rich becoming richer and scratching each other's back, is when they cannot fill the seats for an FA Cup semi-final

[Dazed87]

As I say, football has pretty much always been dominated by a few teams. The specific teams that dominate change over time but you'll still only have a few teams at any one period that are above & beyond the rest.

Also:

Originally Posted by Gary D

Does your club have any chance of winning anything ever again?

You say nobody professes a desire for their team to win - the above quote is taken from the opening post of the thread.

[RMCF]

A good thread.

Personally speaking I do think that football is becoming less interesting, although that is only my own opinion. Perhaps others, like the Sky TV generation, are finding it really exciting if they only got into football since Sky got involved.

For me, who grew up being obsessed with football from the late 70s onwards, I have found that I do not get the same buzz as often from football. 5 years ago I would have watched nearly every game on Sky - now I would say that I often look at whats on live and more often than not couldn't be arsed to switch it on.

Why is this? I don't know if I don't find the football as exciting, entertaining or attractive any more. Admittedly there are some big names in the EPL, but watching the likes of Ballack and Shevchenko this season has made me realise how much money is being wasted on people who have no heart for the game any more and are just looking to pick up the money (and for Chelsea fans, yes there are others - they are just the 2 latest that have annoyed me this season).

Some of the football I have seen this season is still very entertaining, but there is just too much live football on imho. I ended up watching so much dross over the years that I started to lose interest. The EPL now has between 2 and 4 'big' teams, depending on who's argument you listen to. When I was young the top 10 sides were always in the mix, and it could change from one year to the next. Doesn't happen now - and will probably get worse. Fans of Everton, Spurs, Newcastle, Villa, Man City etc have to face facts - you are a 'big' club in name only now. I realise that football has its cycles, but I can't see any of you winning the EPL in the forseeable future. Success for these teams is now making it to the CL.

Sorry to go on, but just want to make a final point. As a Madrid fan since the early 80s, I have endured many bad times, plus many great times - proving the cycle theory. I had the pleasure of being at each of their 3 CL successes in 98, 00, 02 and was privileged to see them all after the team waited 32 years to win the 1st one since the 60s. Now we are pants!! And Madrid too can be held up as an example of all thats bad in football. I was attracted to them by their history and their attitude to how the game should be played. This has faded in their hunt for a trophy after so long without one, and appointing Jose in the summer (as the rumours go) will not bring back the beautiful football. We may win things again though.

I have found that over the last 5 or so years, the steady decline in quality on TV has driven me back to my local team. I know they still can't compete with the big boys in quality but there is something about watching your local team live that will always be better than watching footie on the TV. This last 2 seasons I have more interest in them than watching Madrid on TV. I have not made a trip to Madrid to see a game in 2 years now and it will probably take a very exciting Madrid team to take me back.

Perhaps more people who have local teams in the lower leagues should start going to their local games rather than travelling to support the likes of Man Utd and Chelsea, or buying their merchandise. Spread the wealth.

Long-winded rant over !!

[DJT75]

Originally Posted by Dazed87

As I say, football has pretty much always been dominated by a few teams. The specific teams that dominate change over time but you'll still only have a few teams at any one period that are above & beyond the rest.

I generally agree with that.

[Donnacha]

If Platini gets his way it may have an effect. i.e. only 3 teams in the CL. That'll really hot up the fight for the 3rd place and the the likes of Arsenal (and potentially Liverpool) may miss out on CL and huge revenue, thus at least levelling the playing field for the other 17 teams (to a point).

However as it stands the rich get richer and bigger!

[RMCF]

Originally Posted by Dazed87

Also, football has always been dominated by a select few clubs over periods of time - the particular clubs that happen to be dominating at a particular time will change but you've still only got about four or so at any one time.

Lists of winners/runners-up of old Div1/EPL from early 70s onwards highlights this:

1970-71 Arsenal - Leeds
1971-72 Derby - Leeds
1972-73 Liverpool - Arsenal
1973-74 Leeds - Liverpool
1974-75 Derby - Liverpool
1975-76 Liverpool - Q.P.R
1976-77 Liverpool - Man City
1977-78 Nott Forest - Liverpool
1978-79 Liverpool - Nott Forest
1979-80 Liverpool - Man United
1980-81 Aston Villa - Ipswich
1981-82 Liverpool - Ipswich
1982-83 Liverpool - Watford
1983-84 Liverpool - Southampton
1984-85 Everton - Liverpool
1985-86 Liverpool - Everton
1986-87 Everton - Liverpool
1987-88 Liverpool - Man United
1988-89 Arsenal - Liverpool
1989-90 Liverpool - Aston Villa
1990-91 Arsenal - Liverpool
1991-92 Leeds - Man United
1992–93 Man United - Aston Villa
1993–94 Man United - Blackburn
1994–95 Blackburn - Man United
1995–96 Man United - Newcastle
1996–97 Man United - Newcastle
1997–98 Arsenal - Man United
1998–99 Man United - Arsenal
1999–00 Man United - Arsenal
2000–01 Man United - Arsenal
2001–02 Arsenal - Liverpool
2002–03 Man United - Arsenal
2003–04 Arsenal - Chelsea
2004–05 Chelsea - Arsenal
2005–06 Chelsea - Man United
2006-07 Man United and Chelsea again (you pick the order!!)


You can see patterns ok in all this. Liverpool obviously appear quite often up to the 90's, and who's to say they won't have their turn again soon what with the new owners et al.

But since the EPL began, there is definitely less variation in 1st/2nd place. This is probably down to the money aspect.

Who can say we will ever see the likes of Watford, QPR, Southampton, Derby, Ipswich back at the top of English football again? I would say never, as they don't have the financial clout. A major shock for the English game would be someone like Everton, Villa, Spurs, or Newcastle winning the EPL now - and these are still classed as 'big' clubs anyway.

[RMCF]

Another point - not only are the rich getting richer in their own countries, but it can affect how teams from other countries can compete.

Take Celtic and Rangers for example - by any stretch of the imagination these 2 are big clubs with huge followings, and on paper should be able to compete with the best.

But each time Celtic/Rangers win the SPL, they get less than £2million in TV rights for the entire season!!

Compare that to those that will get relegated from the EPL - estimates put their income from TV at least at £15million each. Plus they get a parachute payment as well. So how can the SPL winners compete for players against even the lowest EP teams? The only thing they can offer is CL football. Wages alone won't attract them.

In the very near future teams at the top of the EPL will be getting nearly £2million per live game - compare that to an entire season for the SPL winners!!

[overkill]

Originally Posted by DJT75

Cue Overkill

.....why thank you. Simple answer, yes.

Sorry, but just because the two clear leaders are close means it will be a 'tight' contest between themselves hardly makes it exciting for the rest of us. How can it be? That is pretty weird thinking to be honest.

The fact that the FA cup is between the same two teams, and that one of them has won a trophy already is ominous enough, never mind should one, or both of them reach the European final as well.

For the teams outside the big 2+2 as frankly no matter how we flatter ourselves Liverpool and Arsenal aren't in the big twos leauge this, or probably next season, it must be raw tedium. It's no surprise then that gates are falling off.........

As for the 'Barnsley' comparison, that's not really the point is it DJT? No true underdog has won the cup since 1988, and isn't going to this year either. One of the things that gives the FA cup it's magic are those fairytale moments when a Sunderland, a Southampton, a West Ham, a Coventry, a Wimbledon, pull off a miracle win. It's what makes it, sorry used to make it, special. With that no longer happening any more, and a tedious routine of the same old faces winning the cup, it's no wonder it's lost some of it's gloss.


As Abbeygoo says, quite rightly, the top flight teams outside the 'Euro zone' have seriously lowered their sights as money has flowed 'upwards' to such a ludicrous degree. Instead of putting their effort into giving the top clubs a hard ride for their money, at key stages of the season, they just turn up, make minimal effort and concentrate on beating the teams around them. When it comes to the cup, that gets sacrificed, as Abbey says, to pick up those points that means extra 'dough'.

This is an entirely negative development as it's net result is poor football, lack of ambition, which only strengthens the big clubs stranglehold on the silverware, and has weakened our top flight to the point where claims about it being the 'strongest' in Europe are a thing of the distant past. At the top where all the money is maybe, but from fourth downwards? Not a chance.

Now our leauge just looks like any other in Europe. The days of strength in depth are gone.

And money is the reason why.


Happy now DJT?

[overkill]

Originally Posted by RMCF

Lists of winners/runners-up of old Div1/EPL from early 70s onwards highlights this:

1970-71 Arsenal - Leeds
1971-72 Derby - Leeds
1972-73 Liverpool - Arsenal
1973-74 Leeds - Liverpool
1974-75 Derby - Liverpool
1975-76 Liverpool - Q.P.R
1976-77 Liverpool - Man City
1977-78 Nott Forest - Liverpool
1978-79 Liverpool - Nott Forest
1979-80 Liverpool - Man United
1980-81 Aston Villa - Ipswich
1981-82 Liverpool - Ipswich
1982-83 Liverpool - Watford
1983-84 Liverpool - Southampton
1984-85 Everton - Liverpool
1985-86 Liverpool - Everton
1986-87 Everton - Liverpool
1987-88 Liverpool - Man United
1988-89 Arsenal - Liverpool
1989-90 Liverpool - Aston Villa
1990-91 Arsenal - Liverpool
1991-92 Leeds - Man United
1992–93 Man United - Aston Villa
1993–94 Man United - Blackburn
1994–95 Blackburn - Man United
1995–96 Man United - Newcastle
1996–97 Man United - Newcastle
1997–98 Arsenal - Man United
1998–99 Man United - Arsenal
1999–00 Man United - Arsenal
2000–01 Man United - Arsenal
2001–02 Arsenal - Liverpool
2002–03 Man United - Arsenal
2003–04 Arsenal - Chelsea
2004–05 Chelsea - Arsenal
2005–06 Chelsea - Man United
2006-07 Man United and Chelsea again (you pick the order!!)


You can see patterns ok in all this. Liverpool obviously appear quite often up to the 90's, and who's to say they won't have their turn again soon what with the new owners et al.

But since the EPL began, there is definitely less variation in 1st/2nd place. This is probably down to the money aspect.

Who can say we will ever see the likes of Watford, QPR, Southampton, Derby, Ipswich back at the top of English football again? I would say never, as they don't have the financial clout. A major shock for the English game would be someone like Everton, Villa, Spurs, or Newcastle winning the EPL now - and these are still classed as 'big' clubs anyway.

Another point here is, that up until the late 70's there was still no clue that Liverpool would dominate in a way, up until then, unheard of. Only twice before, Villa in the 19th C and Arsenal in the 30's had football been dominated the way Liverpool did in the 70's. Unless I'm mistaken there is quite a gap between the domination those three clubs enjoyed. At the same time, right up until the formation of the Premiership, the spread of all the domestic trophies was much greater. Even in the leauge. In the 70's for example, there were six different champions, despite Liverpool's domination. RMCF is also correct in that the top three places was also spread much more evenly up until recent years. Now the same faces pop up every year.

In the FA cup, no one or two teams dominated in the way Utd and Arsenal have since the early 90's. In the 70's there were nine different winners and two of them from Div2. In the 80's there were seven different winners, two of them 'small clubs'. Since 1990, in seventeen seasons, never mind ten, there have been just six different winners, all of them 'big clubs'. After this year, make that eighteen.

Bear in mind that since 90', Utd have won five, and Arsenal five. An FA cup domination unprecedented in the modern era.

[Sonic67]

The sad thing is not only has this season been predictable so is next seasons. Who do you think will win everything next season? Chelsea or Man U? That's it to a large extent. Before a balls been kicked I expect next season to be down to Man U or Chelsea (again) as to who wins the Premiership.

Compare with the Championship. Even now it's still open as to who will win and who will get promoted.

You might want to consider that before the Premiership we also got to the semi finals of the World Cup in 1990. These days the Premiership is full of foreign players and foreign managers.

[WelshBluebird]

Originally Posted by Sonic67

Compare with the Championship. Even now it's still open as to who will win and who will get promoted.

totally agreed with that point. As a Cardiff fan, its been brilliant (and gutting) to see championship football this season. Not just the quality of football being played, but how tight it is and how much things change (

here's an example, if we had not had that awful period of 13 matches (or even if it was only say 10 matches) Cardiff could easily be right up in the playoffs or even the automatic promotion places. And look at Sunderland this season under Keane. Nothing like that could happen in the prem.

[Abbeygoo]

Just coming round from Overkill agreeing with me cheers pal.

The FA Cup has lost its romance in a lot of regards as people have alluded to already. The winners over the last few years have all been the usual suspects - United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool - and a staggering statistic, West Ham last year aside, it will be 13 years since somebody other than them has even SCORED in the FA Cup Final!!

No points for spotting Paul Rideout in 1995. The league is between two teams, the FA Cup between four and the rest spend months on end saying how they will concentrate on getting forty points first and then go from there - great

[Gary D]

Originally Posted by Dazed87

Basically what you're saying is you don't think football is worth watching if the team you support doesn't end up winning the league or the cup, which in all honesty is wrong.

Also, football has always been dominated by a select few clubs over periods of time - the particular clubs that happen to be dominating at a particular time will change but you've still only got about four or so at any one time.

No thats not what i'm say at all.

I'm really not talking about not supporting your team - i'm a west brom fan and i have been all my life, i'll follow them until I die.

I agree (as i said in the OP) that there will always be dominant teams. but the current league deal means that the rich and consistant teams will be have their position strengthened year on year. The lower Premier League teams hopes and asperations are not what they once were. Teams are not thinking that they have a realisitic chance of champions league football, because the berths are pretty much already known at the being of the season. So teams are thinking in terms of mere survival for the money or at best mid-table and a bit of cup run.

As for the cycling of successful teams i think the chances of teams rising into that position will become less and less as the vast amounts money at the top. Thats is what marks out this period so different from the others. Pre Premier League they was nowhere near the amount of money there is today and with the rewards at the top being so big it will distill english football into a group of select teams slugging it out season after season. it makes me sad that the only way i'll get to the new Wembley is either in play-offs or if a go to see England play. I don't realistically think we will ever win the league or the FA Cup.

I'm not arguing against what anyone is saying - i'm just saying that we could be living through a real change in the nature of English football.


Gary

[RMCF]

Agree with the last 2 posts regarding the Championship (I still like to call it Division 2!!).

Any games I have watched this season have been on a par with most of the EPL games. It has got very interesting in the last few weeks and the climax is going to be enthralling. Same goes for the relegation battle in the EPL.

I think that we do have some fantastic players in the EPL, mostly at the top 3 or 4 teams of course. But there is also a lot of very average players who are getting huge wages that they don't deserve. This is fuelled by Sky giving average teams vast amounts of money, and they can then give average players vast amounts of money.

Re: for the lack of English players and coaches at the top. Do the English football club supporting public really care about this any more. If you were to ask a Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd or Liverpool fan if they would sacrifice some success to increase no. of English players and get in an English coach I can guess what the answer would be. Their club comes 1st I'm afraid.

Thats the one thing I like about La Liga and Madrid - there are still loads of Spanish players around. Often in the EPL you can see teams with 0, 1 or 2 English men at most in the team (some better than others of course). Teams need to have a national identity I feel, and the plan by UEFA to bring in their rule regarding no. of nationals in the starting lineup is a good thing.