[Harj]

And here I present the evidence why..

Panesar was chronically underbowled against Sri Lanka by Freddie, often giving him just short spells. When Strauss took the cpataincy he was used for long periods against batsman who are the best players of spin (Yousef, Younis, Inzi) and took their wickets.

Why are we suddenly lacking in the batting dept when Trescothick has not been scoring at all this summer?

We have a ready made replacement in Cook for Trescothick, why drop Panesar?

What has Giles done for his return to the team? Has he scored runs?no?

Surley you replace like for like, and get thhe best specialists playing in their posiitions?

Why has Fletcher not told the likes of Hoggard to improve their batting in the lower order? Why has Panesar been the only one to be told to improve?

What really sickens me is that Panesar , through out summer has performed to cement his place in the team, and Giles, wwho has done nothing (before and after his injury) walks in , if im sickned, how is Panesar feeling.

This is cronyisism at its worst and I have no douibt that Strauss would have been in Panesars corner.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Harj

Why has Fletcher not told the likes of Hoggard to improve their batting in the lower order? Why has Panesar been the only one to be told to improve?.

I think that most English cricket fans will agree with you and even Nick Knight who is Ashley Giles colleague and ex captain at Warwickshire said on Sky tonight that he wouldn't have picked him.

Hoggard may not be a great run scorer but he can stick around for ages compiling his score of 5 whilst allowing a real batsman at the other end to score runs. No-one has mentioned James Anderson who has accumulated a total of 89 runs from his 18 Test innings with a highest score of 21 which is less than Monty's highest of 26 (scored off Muralitheran at trent Bridge this year)

[scrapbook]

Originally Posted by Ian J

No-one has mentioned James Anderson who has accumulated a total of 89 runs

89 is about the minimum number of runs he concedes per innings as well.

[mmayson]

Panesar is generally untried on the major stage. He'll get his chance, gradually, and I'll bet that he'll be the star of the Ashes! It's a bit like Theo Walcott and Arsenal, Wayne Rooney and Everton, they were introduced to the top flight gradually.

Come on England!

[scrapbook]

It is nothing like Walcott and Rooney.

Monty is an established county player and after his performances last winter and during the summer one of the best finger spinners in the world.

[domtheone]

Originally Posted by scrapbook

Monty is an established county player and after his performances last winter and during the summer one of the best finger spinners in the world.

Given the above it's all the more ludicrous that he hasn't been picked

Mind you.

Not the first time that a player has probably been excluded just because another player fits in better or is buddies with the selectors/management, cough wicket keeper

[JohnG]

It's silly not to pick Monty
Why do the selectors have this bee in their bonnet about picking people who can bat as well ? In the good old days bowlers were picked for their ability to get wickets and it didn't matter that they couldn't bat. If your batsmen are good enough you shouldn't really need to worry about the batting skills of your top bowlers ! I bet it took Giles a few years of Test matches to be able to put some runs together with the bat, so how the hell do they expect Monty to get that experience and become a batter batsman if they don't pick him ? This ground is known to be a favourite of Warne, so why didn't that convert to our selectors picking a bowler who can actually spin the ball properly ?
You watch, they will pick Monty for one game at a ground that's crap for spin and then say that was his chance I believe that Monty has the ability to win matches for us with his bowling and I don't put Giles in the same class. Once again our national team could be let down by the people who run the sport.... the ageing ex-public school, old school tie brigade who seem to worm their way into ruining (as opposed to running) our national teams.

[dc007]

I'd have gone with Monty too.

Fact is, you need to take 20 wickets to win a Test, no matter how many runs are scored. Giles won't take a 5-fer in this Series, Monty might well have done.

Also, there would have been no fear, no doubt, in the Aussies minds whilst facing up to Giles. Monty is new to a lot of them and that in itself could have helped.

Anyway, barring a miracle we are 0-1 down and facing a long, hot Winter...

[RizL4]

whats cricket?

[joffy1780]

Originally Posted by RizL4

whats cricket?

.
How do you get 'tinternet in a cave?

[miceri]

Does it rain much in Oz-land?

Its our only hope (Hah! I sound like Princess Lea )

[Ian J]

I hear a rumour that they are recalling Gooch, Atherton and Gatting to bowl in the next test as they can strengthen the 9, 10 and 11 batting positions

[Leej]

Did Mike Gatting bowl ( can't remember)?

Send the bowlers in to bat first, then we'll have a good tail.

Being negative in any sport is a recipe for disaster. Choosing bowlers because they can bat can only lead to defeat. If the selectors feel that the top/middle order can't score enough runs, then replace those and not leave out our Monty.

[Ian J]

I read something on Cricinfo this morning that astounded me.

Duncan Fletcher said that the decision who was playing wasn't solely down to him as whilst he and Flintoff had a big say they also consult a selection "panel of senior players - Andrew Strauss, Paul Collingwood and Jones" before each test.

I can understand them consulting Strauss as he is the vice captain and in many people's opinion should have been the captain anyway but Paul Collingwood is only playing at all thanks to Marcus Trescothick pulling out whilst the England Management didn't see fit to award a central contract to Geraint Jones at all and the decision to play him instead of Chris Read was a highly contentious decision.

It does now seem that cronyism plays a big part in the selection process and having read these revelations it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Ashley Giles is also a member of this elite selection panel. At least that would explain how he keeps getting picked.

[GBDG1]

A quote from Giles himself:

It's as if people suspect that I have kidnapped England's version of Shane Warne and kept him hidden in a cupboard under the stairs. Well, I've got news for everybody: there is no English Shane Warne and, if there was, he would not be locked up in the cupboard under my stairs. I would take as much joy as everyone else in watching him. Perhaps one day we will find him. But we haven't. And, that being the case, whether people like it or not, I still think I'm the best man for the job.

Some great comments from the press about him:

The weakness displayed by Giles in dealing with criticism will no doubt have been noted by the Australians' sledging sub-committee . . . One passage of self-pity verged on the shocking.
James Lawton
The Independent

We've had Giles the newspaper columnist, Giles the website blogger. If he put as much spin on the ball as the words, he might be half as good as Shane Warne. Giles is lucky. His place relies on the flawed wisdom that England must have a spinner. Even an ordinary one.
Martin Samuel
News of the World

Giles has to get through the second Test to get to the third. If he's not allowed to do the containment work, then it's unlikely he can stay at the crease and then they [England] will need to bring back their impact bowlers.
John Buchanan
Australia coach

Crikey, the criticism directed at Giles in the last week is nothing compared to what I have had to deal with in my career. So stop being a namby pamby!
Geoffrey Boycott
Daily Telegraph

What use is he in the side? He's not going to get wickets against the Aussie batsmen and he's not going to make any runs. With him, England are effectively playing 10 against 11. They should either include another specialist batsman or pick a spinner who can bat.
Dave Houghton
Derbyshire coach

Giles took time out from his column to have a pop at the critics: texting his detractor, the Derbyshire coach Dave Houghton, was precious.
Michael Atherton
Sunday Telegraph

We'll never beat Australia carrying dead wood and Ashley Giles and Geraint Jones are dead wood - but I wouldn't drop them.
Derek Pringle
Daily Telegraph

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/ashes200...540075,00.html

[Primmy]

It is becoming blatantly obvious that DF and FF are stifling our main chance of retaining the Ashes (I tell my son to never give up when playing football, its not over til its over). Get Monty on he has proven his worth and to be displaced by Ashley Giles is an utter disgrace. Lets be more aggressive in this series, just as the Aussies have to get them in this position.

FF should be relieved of the captaincy, give it to Strauss, so that he can concentrate on his batting. I still havent seen a decent partnership with FF and KP - i would stay up all night to watch a 3-400 run stand!

[Ian J]

We should probably have Panesar & Mahmood in the side for the next test at the expence of Giles & Anderson but that would require an admission whether tacit or otherwise that they had got it wrong for the first two tests.

Having said that, it was the batsmen that let us down in the second innings of the Adelaide Test

[rio1981]

Originally Posted by Scamper

It is becoming blatantly obvious that DF and FF are stifling our main chance of retaining the Ashes (I tell my son to never give up when playing football, its not over til its over). Get Monty on he has proven his worth and to be displaced by Ashley Giles is an utter disgrace. Lets be more aggressive in this series, just as the Aussies have to get them in this position.

FF should be relieved of the captaincy, give it to Strauss, so that he can concentrate on his batting. I still havent seen a decent partnership with FF and KP - i would stay up all night to watch a 3-400 run stand!

Agree with everything here. We just seem to be sending out the wrong signals in all areas, would we have taken this negative approach had we not won the last series? It's the cricket equivalent of sticking 10 men behind the ball, hoping for a 0-0, and whilst some are good at this form of playing, it does not and will not ever work for us.

As much as I admire Freddie I think the captaincy is something he shouldn't currently be undertaking. Strauss did a fine job in the role, his batting improved with the extra responsibility and it should mean Flintoff can express himself with bat and ball too. I'd still take Vaughan back in a heart-beat though, if he was to miraculously recover in time for the next test.

It's a shame that many - not necessarily here - are getting at Giles himself. He's not in charge of picking himself after all, and whilst Fletcher seems to admit he has help from many places for picking the side, the buck rests firmly with him, as it's not ability that was missing on that last day, it was the attitude.

And that always comes from the top...

[dc007]

Papers this morning claim that Fletcher wanted both Panesar and Mahmood in but was overruled by the players committee of Flintoff, Strauss, Jones and Collingwood (why those 4 ?!) who wanted Giles/Anderson.

I'm beginning to suspect a racist element...

[rio1981]

Originally Posted by dc007

Papers this morning claim that Fletcher wanted both Panesar and Mahmood in but was overruled by the players committee of Flintoff, Strauss, Jones and Collingwood (why those 4 ?!) who wanted Giles/Anderson.

I'm beginning to suspect a racist element...

Sounds a bit sensationalist to me - although I haven't read the piece. Lets face it, the timing is good for our media to stick the boot in with a story like this.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by dc007

was overruled by the players committee of Flintoff, Strauss, Jones and Collingwood (why those 4 ?!)

The captain and coach have the final say but the makeup of the committee is interesting as apart from the captain and the one that ought to be captain the other two are the wicketkeeper who doesn't have a central contract and many feel shouldn't be in the team plus another who is only in the team due to Trescothick's withdrawal.

The fact that both Panesar and Mahmood are of Asian origin is irrelevant but what does really annoy me is that Michael Vaughan built up a wonderful team spirit within the England team and it has taken just two Test matches for Fletcher & Flintoff to destroy it.

No matter what they say in public how can people like Monty Panesar and Chris Read feel part of the England setup - we're back to the bad old days of cronyism and faces needing to fit.

[Ian182]

Surprised no one has mentionned Harmison as well.
1 wicket from 2 test matches, he was a bit better in the second test, but surely his place must be under threat too ?
I'd really like to see Panesar, Mahmood and even Plunkett take some wickets in the tour match. Put some real pressure on Fletcher/Flintoff to make changes.

And I don't believe for a minute that there's a racist element to the selections - I think its far more a case of defensive selections rather than attacking ones.

Ian.

[GBDG1]

When I read the start of this article I had to check to see if Ian_J had written it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cric...nd/6217958.stm

[KevD]

Originally Posted by dc007

I'm beginning to suspect a racist element...

, absolutly nothing to do with their race! Monty not being picked is crazy but thats purely down to the cronyism that has been mentioned.

Mahmood being picked is a much closer call than Monty. I would pick Harmy even though he has been poor, because if he can get it right he is a match winner. That leaves it between Mahmood/Anderson and I think Jimmy has done quite well in these tests, not got the rewards he has deserved.

But I think a change is needed to turn this around so Monty & Sajid should be in the 3rd Test side.

[Ian J]

I agree with Kev but there's even a case for bringing in Chris Broad from the Academy in place of Harmy but that might be a step too far.

[KevD]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Chris Broad .

Dont think things are quite that bad that we need a 50 year old official/former batmens to come into the team for our supposed #1 bowler

If however you did mean Stuart, I would agree. He should have been in the main squad ahead of both Anderson and Mahmood.

[KevD]

They really dont like him. I guess they thought the pressure of playing in Oz might be to much, well how about playing in Oz 2-0 down and a nation expecting you to save Englands Ashes campaign

At least we will finally see what he can do, All the best Monty

Mahmoos in for Anderson also

[gpa]

Panesar on the move 5 for 90 Selectors are going to be in for a bashing

[KevD]

5 For now

[JohnG]

Just heard one of the commentators say that the plan was to play Giles for just the 1st test and then drop him. But something made them change their minds afer the 1st test !