[chaddy]

Juventus' demotion to Serie B will stand but Lazio and Fiorentina are to start the new season in Serie A, the Italian federal court appeals tribunal announced on Tuesday evening.

After three days' debate and one day of conferring, the federal court's president Piero Sandulli announced the eagerly-anticipated verdicts that have seen Juve, Lazio, Fiorentina and Milan all handed reduced punishments for match-fixing.

The Bianconeri had originally been handed a 30-point Serie B deduction for the forthcoming campaign, but, on appeal, that has now been reduced to a 17-point penalty, even if the deposed champions' relegation stands.

Juve have been stripped of their 2005 title, while last season's trophy will not be assigned.

The Old Lady's relegation means Messina will be promoted from the second tier of Italian football, where they were due to start the next campaign after finishing 18th in Serie A last season.

Lazio and Fiorentina, meanwhile, have been allowed to remain in Serie A, but will start with 11 and 19 point deductions respectively - the retention of the pair's Serie A status confirms Lecce and Treviso's relegation to Serie B.

Milan have been allowed to compete in the UEFA Champions League qualifiers in the forthcoming campaign, although the Rossoneri start with an eight-point top flight handicap.

Sandulli also confirmed that Lazio, Fiorentina and Milan have all been docked 30 points from their league total for season 2005/06
Source sky sports

How much of a joke is this !

[overkill]

Well, no surprise really. Many people felt that the intial sentences, while totally justifed were handed out with the full knowledge that they would be slashed on appeal. Milans sentence has really been reduced to a slap on the wrists now they've been restored to the CL. Link:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...pe/5215178.stm

With all four set to appeal again, it seems, despite the fact that there was iron clad evidence of wrong doing, and the shrill protestations of innocence are quite pathetic in that light, that there is every chance of these sentences being whittled away to nothing.

If that happens what sort of message does that send out? Match fixing? No worry lads, if you get caught just appeal your way out of it........

If it happens, and they all get off, it will be a huge nail in the coffin of football.

[overkill]

Mods can we merge the two. I didn't realise that another italian thread had been started!

[Silver Arrow]

At least they are honest about there dishonesty!

[JohnG]

Threads merged.

[RMCF]

Originally Posted by overkill

If that happens what sort of message does that send out? Match fixing? No worry lads, if you get caught just appeal your way out of it........

If it happens, and they all get off, it will be a huge nail in the coffin of football.

Although some might say that the reduced sentences were light, you could hardly say they 'appealed' their way out of it.

Milan are the best off, and they still have to play in all the CL qualifying rounds and start 8 pts adrift. Is their link with the ex-Prime Minister significant here?

Juve in my opinion are still hit fairly hard. Series B and minus 17pts is a lot to make up, especially when your players are leaving at a rate of knots!! Plus getting stripped of their last 2 x Scudettos.

The thing that I find strange in this whole case is the real lack of evidence against these teams. We have not heard what games were actually fixed, shown TV coverage of dodgy referee decisions, keepers letting the ball go in etc. It all seems to be based on a few intercepted calls saying, 'we'd prefer ref Mr. XXX instead'. But the players weren't involved and to punish harshly on no real evidence is tough imo. I see Juve are appealing a 2nd time - but I'm sure they'll be told to getlost this time.

[lostinspace]

Surely the police are investigating fraud? What about the people who bet on these games?

Like many things in football which their own governing body can't control, the police should be checking this out. If guilty, then prison should be the natural course for the offenders, and then a life ban from all sporting matters.

[pringtef]

Originally Posted by lostinspace

What about the people whobet on these games.

Especially relevant considering AC Milans sponsor is an online sports betting company....

[overkill]

Originally Posted by SOK

Although some might say that the reduced sentences were light, you could hardly say they 'appealed' their way out of it.

Milan are the best off, and they still have to play in all the CL qualifying rounds and start 8 pts adrift. Is their link with the ex-Prime Minister significant here?

Juve in my opinion are still hit fairly hard. Series B and minus 17pts is a lot to make up, especially when your players are leaving at a rate of knots!! Plus getting stripped of their last 2 x Scudettos.

The thing that I find strange in this whole case is the real lack of evidence against these teams. We have not heard what games were actually fixed, shown TV coverage of dodgy referee decisions, keepers letting the ball go in etc. It all seems to be based on a few intercepted calls saying, 'we'd prefer ref Mr. XXX instead'. But the players weren't involved and to punish harshly on no real evidence is tough imo. I see Juve are appealing a 2nd time - but I'm sure they'll be told to getlost this time.

They haven't - yet. That was the thrust of the argument that they will get off in the end.

In answer to the Milan question - yes.

Juve were caught on a mass of evidence not just a 'few phone calls'. There were taps of whole conversations taken as a result of information garnered through other sources. In these conversations, in particular Juve, matches were set up in which refs would influence the outcome, meaning Juve couldn't lose! If that's not worthy of the harshest punishment, what is?

[JohnG]

There has been talk for years that Juve were doing this kind of thing. Typical Italian "justice" though will dictate that they won't get the full punishment.

[RMCF]

Originally Posted by overkill

In these conversations, in particular Juve, matches were set up in which refs would influence the outcome, meaning Juve couldn't lose! If that's not worthy of the harshest punishment, what is?

Again as I mentioned, I have seen so little 'detailed' information about this scandal.

What about the refs association? I haven't heard of any refs named and shamed and given life bans for fixing games - have you? If so, how many were banned. And yes I do agree that anybody found guilty with real evidence available just go to jail. Punish the real criminals here, because at present the only people I see getting punished are the players and the fans. For example that bloke Moggi who is meant to be a central character in all this - his punishment was to be banned from involvement in any football for 5 years!! Why not prison?

[RMCF]

Originally Posted by JohnG

There has been talk for years that Juve were doing this kind of thing. Typical Italian "justice" though will dictate that they won't get the full punishment.

I'd say they were punished fully enough.

Relegated, probably for 2 years at least. Lost 4 top players already with the likelihood of another 4 or so leaving before the start of the season. Losing 70% of their income which might keep them down for a long time to come. Unable to attract any talent. Stripped of 2 titles.

This has the potential to ruin the club for many years to come. How can you say they weren't punished fully?

[overkill]

Originally Posted by SOK

Again as I mentioned, I have seen so little 'detailed' information about this scandal.

What about the refs association? I haven't heard of any refs named and shamed and given life bans for fixing games - have you? If so, how many were banned. And yes I do agree that anybody found guilty with real evidence available just go to jail. Punish the real criminals here, because at present the only people I see getting punished are the players and the fans. For example that bloke Moggi who is meant to be a central character in all this - his punishment was to be banned from involvement in any football for 5 years!! Why not prison?

Yes, one at least has been banned, two others indicted and even our bald headed friend was indicted, but retired (under a cloud it seems) just in time! Our friends on Bravo covering Italian football filled in the blanks months ago.

I agree totally that criminal charges should be brought. But since that didn't happen last time (79') or the time before that (mid 60's) it isn't likely is it?

I'm sorry I'm not going to shed any tears if Juve lose a few bob and spend what is likely to be a short period out of the top flight. I abhor cheats. Yes it is hard on the fans, but had Arsenal been found guilty of wrong doing over the 'Belgian affair', and punished by FIFA, well, that's life. I was pretty worried for a while as well. But, if you cheat, expect to be punished.

Finally, Milan recovered easily last time out, Juve will this time.

[lostinspace]

Originally Posted by SOK

This has the potential to ruin the club for many years to come. How can you say they weren't punished fully?

The only punishment for cheats is permanent expulsion. Anything less is laughable, but then we are talking football here.

[RMCF]

I suppose Juve will recover in the long run - too big a club not too.

It looks like the prosecutors wanted to try to put an end to this in Italy once and for all - but the other 3 got off too light for this to have a culture-changing effect.

As for 'football' being guilty, I just wonder how much of this sort of stuff is happening in other leagues (inc the EPL) that will come out in the future (or perhaps will always be cleverly covered up). After all, anywhere there is a lot of money involved there is corruption.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by SOK

I suppose Juve will recover in the long run - too big a club not too.

It looks like the prosecutors wanted to try to put an end to this in Italy once and for all - but the other 3 got off too light for this to have a culture-changing effect.

As for 'football' being guilty, I just wonder how much of this sort of stuff is happening in other leagues (inc the EPL) that will come out in the future (or perhaps will always be cleverly covered up). After all, anywhere there is a lot of money involved there is corruption.

Agreed. I've wondered for years with some of our games, and in the prem there's been an increasing number of 'eyebrow raising' decisions. Plus Wenger was a bit too quick to attack the Italians for saying it could be going on here.

It happened in the 60's right at the start the big money explosion, so, with money now at silly levels.....................

[JohnG]

When the team you support has been on the receiving end of a bribe/cheating/scandal type situation you tend to want all those caught doing this to be punished severely for it.
For those who don't know what I'm on about, it was in 1984 when Anderlecht bribed the ref before the 2nd leg of the game against Forest

[overkill]

Originally Posted by JohnG

When the team you support has been on the receiving end of a bribe/cheating/scandal type situation you tend to want all those caught doing this to be punished severely for it.
For those who don't know what I'm on about, it was in 1984 when Anderlecht bribed the ref before the 2nd leg of the game against Forest

It makes you wonder doesn't it John? I mean the Leeds fans were wrong to go bezerk after the Bayern game, but that was the second time they'd been on the end of blatant cheating in a European final! The ref after the Milan final (there's that Italian connection again.....) was even found to be guilty of accepting bribes yet, were Milan stripped of the title, or punished by UEFA? Nope.

[JohnG]

I was thinking about this last night. A dodgy referee could easily get someone else to place a bet for him that a certain player will be sent off during the game he's refereeing and nobody would be any the wiser