[Ian_S]

Well, that's all the English teams out of the Champions League Something not quite right about the foreign team fielding more English players than the English team with a grand total of one...

I never agreed with the old limit of three foreign players, but I never thought I'd see the day when perhaps there should be a rule saying there should be a minimum of three 'home' players.

Great match to watch though.

[KevD]

But Arsenal aren't out
The way I see it is, if fit, Cole and Campbell would have been in the team thats two. Chelsea in the first choice side have only 3 English guys the same with Liverpool, so no difference really.

Dissapointed only 1 of our teams left, especially when its Arsenal Hopefullly this will affect them in the league

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by KevD

But Arsenal aren't out

Umm.... humour bypass??

Originally Posted by KevD

The way I see it is, if fit, Cole and Campbell would have been in the team thats two. Chelsea in the first choice side have only 3 English guys the same with Liverpool, so no difference really.

But don't you think that there should be a least one player in a fielded team that actually comes from the same country as the team??

[KevD]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

Umm.... humour bypass??


But don't you think that there should be a least one player in a fielded team that actually comes from the same country as the team??

No completey got the humour, was just making a point that if Chelsea or Liverpool had a couple of Injuries they would likely field a non Eng XI.
i also agree that this shouldnt happen, but it does until Fifa get their new laws in place

[la gran siete]

rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to

[KevD]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to

Sadly I think its going to be a case of 3/4 of them having to be in the squad. thne clubs will then insist on being allowed 7 subs and this is how they will get around it

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

Well, that's all the English teams out of the Champions League Something not quite right about the foreign team fielding more English players than the English team with a grand total of one...

I never agreed with the old limit of three foreign players, but I never thought I'd see the day when perhaps there should be a rule saying there should be a minimum of three 'home' players.

Great match to watch though.

Erm, can't really see your point? Liverpool fielded teams in the 80's that were successful in Europe with few Englishmen. In 86' they were the 1st ever team to win the FA cup final with not one Englishmen in the side. Yet we didn't hear all this moaning about 'foreigners' then.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to

Won't work Siete. You would need to introduce a wage cap as well. One of the reasons the 'big' clubs go foreign is they can get away with paying lower wages. Sadly our young players are too greedy - for their own good. Hence Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson, and even the likes of big Sam increasingly go abroad for playing staff.

[pringtef]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to

It won't ever be nationals, EU law won't allow that.

UEFA are planning to introduce a home grown player type rule starting 2006-2007 season for their competitions. Think it's along the lines of there needs to be four locally trained players in the squad, which constitutes two players brought through the clubs own academy, and another two through through any of the associations clubs academies. These will still allow for these players to be non nationals, to prevent breaching EU employment laws.

Gather that even though they've been careful to omit from their rule changes a players nationality, the EU are questioning whether this rule indirectly discriminates against players from another country.

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by overkill

Won't work Siete. You would need to introduce a wage cap as well. One of the reasons the 'big' clubs go foreign is they can get away with paying lower wages. Sadly our young players are too greedy - for their own good. Hence Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson, and even the likes of big Sam increasingly go abroad for playing staff.

No, i agree with the wage cap as well and have said so before

[DJT75]

Originally Posted by overkill

Erm, can't really see your point? Liverpool fielded teams in the 80's that were successful in Europe with few Englishmen. In 86' they were the 1st ever team to win the FA cup final with not one Englishmen in the side. Yet we didn't hear all this moaning about 'foreigners' then.

Erm....No Englishmen in the starting 1986 FA Cup Final team?

Liverpool : Grobbelaar, Nicol, MacDonald, Lawrenson, Whelan, Hansen, Walsh (sub Wark), Johnston, Rush, Molby, McMahon.

Well, there's a regular England B international striker & an English midfielder who went to the Wordl Cup in an England shirt that very same year!!

[Sick Boy]

Originally Posted by overkill

Won't work Siete. You would need to introduce a wage cap as well. One of the reasons the 'big' clubs go foreign is they can get away with paying lower wages. Sadly our young players are too greedy - for their own good. Hence Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson, and even the likes of big Sam increasingly go abroad for playing staff.

Poor shout. It's the clubs in England demanding too big a transfer fee for their players.

[Sick Boy]

Originally Posted by DJT75

Erm....No Englishmen in the starting 1986 FA Cup Final team?

Liverpool : Grobbelaar, Nicol, MacDonald, Lawrenson, Whelan, Hansen, Walsh (sub Wark), Johnston, Rush, Molby, McMahon.

Well, there's a regular England B international striker & an English midfielder who went to the Wordl Cup in an England shirt that very same year!!

Correct. It wasn't until the 90's that Liverpool reached that milestone.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Sick Boy

Poor shout. It's the clubs in England demanding too big a transfer fee for their players.

Once again, I have to question where, apart from thin air, you get your info. We are talking about youth players, and the wage demands English players make - this has nothing to do with the clubs. All this was discussed in an excellent article in WSC a while back, and confirmed by comments made by several Premiership managers. It isn't just Arsenal who rely heavily now on young foreign players. Do you really think clubs would waste their time scouring Europe to find young talent, if they could use home grown, youth team produced stars instead?

It's a sad thought that clubs would prefer to release a promising young English star to a 'lesser light', with whom he knows cannot expect the same pay, but at least he'll get football, than hang on to them and pay double what they expect elsewhere.

I blame that greedy load of parasites they call agents personally.

DJT75 you call yourself a liverpool fan? The actual team for the 1986 FA cup final was :-

Grobbelaar, Lawrenson, BEGLIN, Nicol, Whelan, Hansen, Dalglish, Johnston, Rush, Molby, Macdonald. I.e. four Scots, three Eire, one Welshman, One from Zimbabwe, one from South Africa, and one Dane. NO Walsh, NO Englishmen.

You were saying Sickboy? Bring it on.............

[DJT75]

OK Overkill you got me, my 11 was from an earlier round. Anyway - absolutely no comparison to what Arsenal are doing at the moment, with the exception of flying visits from Campbell & Gilbert you've gone about 40 games without using Englishmen......With Campbell finished & Cole on his way out you'll be left with none (unless Wallcott actually gets a run out)

[po_man]

Don't remember too many people complaining about Liverpools 2005 Champions League winning team - only 2 English men in that team - Carragher and Gerrard.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by DJT75

OK Overkill you got me, my 11 was from an earlier round. Anyway - absolutely no comparison to what Arsenal are doing at the moment, with the exception of flying visits from Campbell & Gilbert you've gone about 40 games without using Englishmen......With Campbell finished & Cole on his way out you'll be left with none (unless Wallcott actually gets a run out)

Good man! Never said there was a comparison, and I am as just unhappy about it as anybody else.

The point was, that this whole 'no Englishmen' bit is hardly exclusive to Arsenal, nor is it anything new. Nor, come to mention it, is the complaining about it either. The above cup final squad drew criticism at the time.

Personally I would love to see Arsenal fielding at least 60% English players. However, until our contract system, and local born players wage demands get sorted out and come down, that's not going to happen.

Just look at Liverpool. When you think the major English signing of late was Crouch, and he came in with a whole plethora of Spanish, French and 'other continentals', it's a poor look out for English football.

[neilo]

Originally Posted by overkill

Good man! Never said there was a comparison, and I am as just unhappy about it as anybody else.

The point was, that this whole 'no Englishmen' bit is hardly exclusive to Arsenal, nor is it anything new. Nor, come to mention it, is the complaining about it either. The above cup final squad drew criticism at the time.

Personally I would love to see Arsenal fielding at least 60% English players. However, until our contract system, and local born players wage demands get sorted out and come down, that's not going to happen.

Just look at Liverpool. When you think the major English signing of late was Crouch, and he came in with a whole plethora of Spanish, French and 'other continentals', it's a poor look out for English football.

Wont all this change when UEFA new rules kick in ?

[overkill]

Originally Posted by neilo

Wont all this change when UEFA new rules kick in ?

I was hoping so neilo, but then 'the parasites' said they will take UEFA to court as the new rules would lead to 'restraint of trade' and 'discrimination'. Watch this space.

[Ian_S]

Good to see a nice healthy debate

I wasn't really trying to make a point as such, and I know this has been happening for quite some time too and that Arsenal aren't the first and probably won't be the last.

I guess what concerns me more though is that if you look at the big foreign sides, they all seem to maintain a decent number of national players. Real still have a Spanish core, the big italian teams still have a good home contingent, Lyon still lots of French.

None of the other major european nations seem to be quite as reliant on foreign players as the English, we seem to be at the extreme end. Also, English players abroad are something of a rarity as well. Is it the money in the English game that causes it?

If teams had to have a minimum number of home players would it help the national side and would it help ensure that the best home young talent actually got a chance to play at the top level?

I agree wholeheartedly with other comments on greed with wages. Players and agents must shoulder some of the blame as well. However by far the larger blame must lie with the authorities for not having the balls to stand up to the task of doing the right thing instead of bowing to the huge sums involved.

[DJT75]

Originally Posted by overkill

I was hoping so neilo, but then 'the parasites' said they will take UEFA to court as the new rules would lead to 'restraint of trade' and 'discrimination'. Watch this space.

Also, the planned changes won't make a single bit of difference, the rules will mean that a certain number of players must be "home-grown". Fabregas, Lupoli etc have been there for years & so qualify... Teams will just sign more young players (under 15) & stick them in the youth teams.....

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by overkill

I was hoping so neilo, but then 'the parasites' said they will take UEFA to court as the new rules would lead to 'restraint of trade' and 'discrimination'. Watch this space.

I wonder how long it will take someone to challenge the ability within the EU not to be able to play for any national side within the EU?? After all, they're all professionals, they get paid for it presumably, therefore by the crazy logic applied to these scenarios surely that too is restraint of trade??

Now common sense says that's barmy, but, maybe that ruling needs to be made so you can then argue that competitions like the CL are also in effect cross nation competitions and therefore it's not restraint of trade to insist there are least some native players taking part... Otherwise, surely The Euro 2008 championships are void? Why couldn't Real Madrid join the English Premier League? It's all jobs and business isn't it by the 'parasites' rules??

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

I wonder how long it will take someone to challenge the ability within the EU not to be able to play for any national side within the EU?? After all, they're all professionals, they get paid for it presumably, therefore by the crazy logic applied to these scenarios surely that too is restraint of trade??

Now common sense says that's barmy, but, maybe that ruling needs to be made so you can then argue that competitions like the CL are also in effect cross nation competitions and therefore it's not restraint of trade to insist there are least some native players taking part... Otherwise, surely The Euro 2008 championships are void? Why couldn't Real Madrid join the English Premier League? It's all jobs and business isn't it by the 'parasites' rules??

With the insane logic that seems to applied to football (and it seems only to football) I wouldn't be at all surprised!

The problem even with a minimum number of players born in a country having to be in a team means, if the players and agents stop to think about it, that their services will become more desired not less! They will be in a dangerously commanding position if the club is required to use their services.

[Sick Boy]

Originally Posted by overkill

Once again, I have to question where, apart from thin air, you get your info. We are talking about youth players, and the wage demands English players make - this has nothing to do with the clubs. All this was discussed in an excellent article in WSC a while back, and confirmed by comments made by several Premiership managers. It isn't just Arsenal who rely heavily now on young foreign players. Do you really think clubs would waste their time scouring Europe to find young talent, if they could use home grown, youth team produced stars instead?

It's a sad thought that clubs would prefer to release a promising young English star to a 'lesser light', with whom he knows cannot expect the same pay, but at least he'll get football, than hang on to them and pay double what they expect elsewhere.

I blame that greedy load of parasites they call agents personally.

DJT75 you call yourself a liverpool fan? The actual team for the 1986 FA cup final was :-

Grobbelaar, Lawrenson, BEGLIN, Nicol, Whelan, Hansen, Dalglish, Johnston, Rush, Molby, Macdonald. I.e. four Scots, three Eire, one Welshman, One from Zimbabwe, one from South Africa, and one Dane. NO Walsh, NO Englishmen.


You were saying Sickboy? Bring it on.............

So you are telling me that an up and coming youth player at Bristol Rovers would rather stay there than jump at a move to Chelsea, Because he thought that they were not offering enough money. Absolute ******. Where do you get YOUR facts from. Agents do not make money off of players wages, unless that now they are Agencys offering their workers but paying the wages themselves.

'It's a sad thought that clubs would prefer to release a promising young English star to a 'lesser light', with whom he knows cannot expect the same pay, but at least he'll get football, than hang on to them and pay double what they expect elsewhere.'

If a player wants to leave because he will get first team football, then fair enough. Don't try to tell me he will leave because they are not paying enough. Wht is he proving by making such a stance apart from admitting he might be a ****?

I can see myself in work dictating that unless they pay me more money I am going to go to a worse company for less money

Scott Sinclair (ex Bristol Rovers is my example) where are yours Overkill? The bible is full of a lot of words but no facts.

[KevD]

I have to agree with Sick Boy here, I dont think the young players are being greedy with wage demands. In fact I wouldnt say many players these days have wage demands them selves.
The clubs demand high fees and if your spending a huge amount on an unproven youugster, the fact that you have spent so much means you have to secure your investment with lucrative deals and this is where the agents come in and demand on the players behalf. Do ou really believe Walcott instructed his agent to demand 10k out of Arsenal or he wont join?? I dont think so and I dont believe our young players are any different from those elsewhere. where yes money is a factor but so is playing with the beast players in the top teams.

[RMCF]

Agree that the amount of foreign players in ALL European teams is getting out of control.

I know that the G14 clubs won't stand for the limits/rules that UEFA are trying to introduce, but I agree with some sort of altered rule. For example, instead of saying you have to have X amount of players coming through your academy, why not just revert to the old rule of allowing 3 foreigners. You could even up it to say 6, to keep G14 happy. That would mean you would still need 5 players from your country in your starting lineup. Forget about the academy stuff, just any player from your country will do.

Disagree that teams buy foreigners to save on wages. Perhaps the poster meant in England. For example, Real Madrid pay massive wages to their foreign players, and would actually save millions by buying more Spanish players. If they had more Spanish players in their team they might have more heart !!

Its hard to believe that when Celtic won the EC all their team was born within 30miles of Celtic Park. An amazing feat considering the makeup of the modern football team.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Sick Boy

So you are telling me that an up and coming youth player at Bristol Rovers would rather stay there than jump at a move to Chelsea, Because he thought that they were not offering enough money. Absolute ******. Where do you get YOUR facts from. Agents do not make money off of players wages, unless that now they are Agencys offering their workers but paying the wages themselves.

'It's a sad thought that clubs would prefer to release a promising young English star to a 'lesser light', with whom he knows cannot expect the same pay, but at least he'll get football, than hang on to them and pay double what they expect elsewhere.'

If a player wants to leave because he will get first team football, then fair enough. Don't try to tell me he will leave because they are not paying enough. Wht is he proving by making such a stance apart from admitting he might be a ****?

I can see myself in work dictating that unless they pay me more money I am going to go to a worse company for less money

Scott Sinclair (ex Bristol Rovers is my example) where are yours Overkill? The bible is full of a lot of words but no facts.

The facts came from two articles and a series of programmes on just this issue. There was also an FA investigation into why youth players are not making it into the big clubs or the England team with the regularity they should be. Where do you get yours from? Down the pub?

All this vitriolic Sickboy. You need to chill! I wonder if it has anything to do with a certain post backing up an incorrect call by DT?

I never said a player at 'Bristol Rovers' wouldn't got to Chelsea if they weren't offering enough. The point is, why take on a player from Bristol Rovers who wants X amount when a player, with experience, from Europe will still play for less. I cannot see your point?

Agents are paid according to the deal they make with the clubs for the players. Not purely on transfer fees.

As for clubs releasing English players due to high wage demands rather than sitting them on the bench, or paying them while on loan, this is old news. Yes, a player will want first team football elsewhere, but given a choice he would, as has been seen, rather sit on the bench earning silly wages at a bigger club. Which is why the clubs don't give them a choice.

Why do you think the big clubs starting with Man Utd in the 80's set up so called youth links with lesser lights in Europe? Because they themselves have similiar links with Africa and Asia. Hence the latest influx of Africans to Europe, and increasingly the premiership. Why? Because they can be paid less - much less, than an English (or other European) player.

This is no different, as you say to ordinary working life. Hence call centres etc are being sent aboard - because workers there accept lower wages.

If you want to discuss the issue, and not just get into a slanging match I suggest you do more research and less swearing.

As for the bible there's plenty in the tank. Example. Michael Stewart. Man Utd fans may (or not) fondly remember him. A youth and reserve player who made a cool £2.5 million in basic salary, and a parting pay off, after just five prem starts. He then, by mutual agreement cancelled his contract to Utd and then went North to Rangers were he earned another cool £400,000 for hardly kicking a ball. A classic example of why British players aren't high on managers teamsheets/priorities. He isn't alone.

I would agree it was harsh, and take back the 'greedy' comment, and add instead that English/British players are pricing themselves out of the market.

[Sick Boy]

.

I cannot see your point. One minute we are comparing British youth to world youth , and then the next minute they are up against experienced world pros. A no brainer for the quick fix footie manager/board.

As for the ex Man U star? He got a great deal because of the idiocy of his club. There is no arguement in English players demanding too much if a club is going to pay it.

The simple fact is that a player is going to demand a wage. If the club wants to pay it, it's up to them. And it is Transfer fees demanded by clubs that are pushing the buyer to other countries, not the wages. This is evident in the infalted prices paid for English talent compared to their world counterparts.

[gooner#14]

what a load of rollox this is, whats up with a team fielding a team with no home grown players in it. if the ENGLISH players were good enough they would be playing would they not??, im a arsenal fan and i got grief when wenger fielded a team full of forighners i got it in the neck they were all saying that any team should have no more than 3 forign players now we have the greatest league in the world, bar none and is it becouse of michael owen, ? NO stevie g??NO its the great players like KLINNSMAN,CANTONA,OKOCHA,HENRY,VIERA,VAN NISTLEROY,CRESPO,MUTU,DI MATTEO,ZOLA,FABRECAS,PIRES,LJUNGBERG,BERGKAMP,SCHM EICAL?, ALL OF THESE FANTASTIC PLAYERS IS WHAT HAS MADE THE SPONSERS WANT TO PAY THE MONEY TO SCREEN THE FOOTBALL IN THIS COUNTRY AND IF THESE "FANS" WANT THE FORIGN PLAYERS CAPPED THEN THE PREMIERSHIP WILL BE DOOMED
rant over

[gooner#14]

and di canio u facist little ****