[la gran siete]

MANCHESTER United fans have joined the chorus of condemnation at the shocking attack on the ambulance transporting Alan Smith from Anfield on Saturday - but urged supporters of both sides to keep the incident in perspective.

Medical staff have expressed their revulsion at the behaviour of the Liverpool fans who threw missiles at the ambulance and directed chants ’Munich scum’ towards Smith, who was receiving treatment after breaking his leg during United’s 1-0 FA Cup defeat.

The incident followed some sickening chants inside Anfield after Smith had collapsed in agony after blocking John Arne Riise’s free-kick late in the game.


Why cant people realise its just a sport and nothing else

[mrtbag]

It's not another nail in the coffin because yet again, it's an exreme minority of people who took part.

They didn't have tickets for the game. Were outside the ground, and for all anybody knows, are not even football fans.

Mindless thugs on a street, that's all. Nothing to do with the game.

[Uridium]

Originally Posted by mrtbag

It's not another nail in the coffin because yet again, it's an exreme minority of people who took part.

They didn't have tickets for the game. Were outside the ground, and for all anybody knows, are not even football fans.

Mindless thugs on a street, that's all. Nothing to do with the game.

What about the mindless thugs inside the ground with tickets who were just as bad when he was being treated?

same old, same old.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by mrtbag

It's not another nail in the coffin because yet again, it's an exreme minority of people who took part.

They didn't have tickets for the game. Were outside the ground, and for all anybody knows, are not even football fans.

Mindless thugs on a street, that's all. Nothing to do with the game.

The chants were made inside the ground. I find it astonishing how people are so happy to brush over incidents like this nowadays. Once, the media over hyped the least sign of violent or disruptive behaviour, now with the amount of wedge involved in the game, it's suddenly 'all down to a minority'.

This of course, is flying in the face of recent figures which show jumps in football related violence each time they are sampled. The 2001 season for example, saw over 3,500 arrests for violent behaviour at matches and an 8.1% jump in arrests on the previous year. While these figures are small beer compared to the 70's, they still show that complacency is a dangerous thing when to comes to acts of hooliganism at football matches.

Dismiss these scumbags as an extreme 'minority' at your peril.

[Nebby]

Don't worry my peanut hugging friend, football is very much alive and kicking.

[mrtbag]

Oh sorry, there was me forgetting that all the countries football fans were at anfield that day. Don't get me wrong, I agree the behaviour is disgusting, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

3500 arrests in a year. How many actually went to a game in that same period. 350,000? more?

My point is, as a whole, football violence is still peformed by a minority of fans.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by mrtbag

Oh sorry, there was me forgetting that all the countries football fans were at anfield that day. Don't get me wrong, I agree the behaviour is disgusting, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

3500 arrests in a year. How many actually went to a game in that same period. 350,000? more?

My point is, as a whole, football violence is still peformed by a minority of fans.

Don't get me wrong, I agree MrTbag, that this incident shouldn't be blown out of proportion. Although stoning an ambulance, if it happened in a town centre, would attract the medias attention just as much........

The danger is, as we've seen at Millwall, that rather than trying to use hooliganism as a rock to beat the game with as they did in the 80's, the media and establishment are now doing their best to ignore a growing problem.

I know at the moment it's 'only' a few thousand, but the danger, as my uncle once said about hoolies in the 70's is, is that if we ignore them they will only get stronger and attract more of their kind.

I really don't think the game could stand a return to 'those' days.

[Nebby]

Actually, I think the media and establishment have finally wised up to the fact that the behaviour of these "fans" is not solely a football problem.

No, these are the same idiots that run riot through our towns and cities night after night.

They don't just turn into mindless thugs the minute they pass by a football ground - they're like it all the time.

[Clio_Master_1.2]

Mindless violence.... grrrrrrrrr idiots aint they?

[johnscarlet]

Originally Posted by mrtbag

3500 arrests in a year. How many actually went to a game in that same period. 350,000? more?

1.3 mil fans a season at Old Trafford alone . And thats a low estimate

John

[overkill]

Originally Posted by johnscarlet

1.3 mil fans a season at Old Trafford alone . And thats a low estimate

John

Huh?! The ground holds 67,000? Where did you get 1.4 million from? As these are 90% season ticket holders we can also rule out 'different' fans turning up each week as we used to see in football. Hence the true figure (divided by 19 - for leauge matches) would still be around 67,000.........

The figure MrTbag gave was for a weekend aggregate of attendances.

[johnscarlet]

Originally Posted by overkill

Huh?! The ground holds 67,000? Where did you get 1.4 million from? As these are 90% season ticket holders we can also rule out 'different' fans turning up each week as we used to see in football. Hence the true figure (divided by 19 - for leauge matches) would still be around 67,000.........

The figure MrTbag gave was for a weekend aggregate of attendances.

20 home games x 65000= 1300000 .

Originally Posted by overkill

The 2001 season for example, saw over 3,500 arrests for violent behaviour at matches and an 8.1% jump in arrests on the previous year. While these figures are small beer compared to the 70's, they still show that complacency is a dangerous thing when to comes to acts of hooliganism at football matches

Where does it say weekend ? I read it as 2001 season if its just liverpool figures

20 home games x 45000 = 900000 .

Its a tiny percentage , I wonder what the percentage of arrests in an average town centre is on a friday night .

Anyway , I agree that we shouldn't get complacent

John

[overkill]

Originally Posted by johnscarlet

20 home games x 65000= 1300000 .



Where does it say weekend ? I read it as 2001 season if its just liverpool figures

20 home games x 45000 = 900000 .

Its a tiny percentage , I wonder what the percentage of arrests in an average town centre is on a friday night .

Anyway , I agree that we shouldn't get complacent

John

You never total the whole lot! 67,000 people watch Man Utd each week. The total is (and always has been) a complete distortion as x amount of million did not watch (at the ground) Man Utd (or anybody else).


It was for a weekends figures not Liverpools. Still, better ask MrTbag as either or both could be wrong!

It is a tiny percentage, but it's distorted by the Police's unwillingness (by contrast with the 80's) to arrest these days rather than just detain and release. This marks a return to the 60's and 70's style of policing games.

[JohnG]

The police just tend to stick banning orders on people, which means that they can't go within so many yards of the ground. So they cause the trouble just outside of that area before or after the game.

[Henry]

If football players are getting booed whilst lying injured, then I think there's more than a little of the "Boy who cried Wolf" going on.

With the amount of time they spend rolling around on the floor "in agony" when they're barely or not even been touched, it's little wonder that the crowds are more than a little sceptical about players injuries.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Henry

If football players are getting booed whilst lying injured, then I think there's more than a little of the "Boy who cried Wolf" going on.

With the amount of time they spend rolling around on the floor "in agony" when they're barely or not even been touched, it's little wonder that the crowds are more than a little sceptical about players injuries.

............which of course has nothing to do with stoning an ambulance. Unless you are claiming that the ambulance services and NHS staff are in on a huge spin on Smiths injury?

[Henry]

Originally Posted by overkill

............which of course has nothing to do with stoning an ambulance. Unless you are claiming that the ambulance services and NHS staff are in on a huge spin on Smiths injury?

Err, clearly not. My post made no mention of stoning ambulances. Clearly no-one in their right mind condones that. It was regarding the reaction of the crowd whilst in the ground.

I believe that the poor and unsympathetic reactions from crowds stem (to an extent) to the play-acting and feigning injury that is so prevalent these days.

When an opposing player goes down injured now, the crowds' first reaction is that "He's faking it" and likely to provoke a negative response. It's only once it's apparent that an injury is seen to be serious that you start to see more charitable and sympathetic responses from the crowd.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Henry

Err, clearly not. My post made no mention of stoning ambulances. Clearly no-one in their right mind condones that. It was regarding the reaction of the crowd whilst in the ground.

I believe that the poor and unsympathetic reactions from crowds stem (to an extent) to the play-acting and feigning injury that is so prevalent these days.

When an opposing player goes down injured now, the crowds' first reaction is that "He's faking it" and likely to provoke a negative response. It's only once it's apparent that an injury is seen to be serious that you start to see more charitable and sympathetic responses from the crowd.

Sorry Henry, not wearing that. As a football supporter of 30 plus years, I have never seen crowds being that sympathetic to opposing players injuries. Chants like 'bring on the dustbin' for players who stayed down too long, and booing of players who the crowd didn't like, even when it was clear they were injured, was the norm. I've seen your lot throw cans and rubbish at an Arsenal player who was injured during an FA cup semi final. By the same token in the same series of matches our lot booed Sammy Lee for five minutes solid when he was injured.

Only the really iconic players escaped abuse, and they had to be squeeky clean as well for that to be the case.

Nowadays I agree, fans have become hardened to diving, but it's been going on for so long (a certain all red team was notorious for it in the 70's ) that I wonder at the growth in hostility. Francis Lee for example, went down in instalments in 72' gaining, and scoring (at that time) a record number of penalties. Yet he was never abused the way modern footballers are for the same offence. Sky and BBC pundits attempting to divert our attention away from the dross we're watching by putting it down to 'cheating' perhaps?

Or maybe they were just better at it in those days...............

[Henry]

Originally Posted by overkill

Sorry Henry, not wearing that. As a football supporter of 30 plus years, I have never seen crowds being that sympathetic to opposing players injuries. Chants like 'bring on the dustbin' for players who stayed down too long, and booing of players who the crowd didn't like, even when it was clear they were injured, was the norm. I've seen your lot throw cans and rubbish at an Arsenal player who was injured during an FA cup semi final. By the same token in the same series of matches our lot booed Sammy Lee for five minutes solid when he was injured.

Only the really iconic players escaped abuse, and they had to be squeeky clean as well for that to be the case.

Nowadays I agree, fans have become hardened to diving, but it's been going on for so long (a certain all red team was notorious for it in the 70's ) that I wonder at the growth in hostility. Francis Lee for example, went down in instalments in 72' gaining, and scoring (at that time) a record number of penalties. Yet he was never abused the way modern footballers are for the same offence. Sky and BBC pundits attempting to divert our attention away from the dross we're watching by putting it down to 'cheating' perhaps?

Or maybe they were just better at it in those days...............

I certainly agree there's never been much sympathy for opposing players but I do think it's worse now.

I think the difference is that, although Franny Lee was pretty useful at it, everyone does it now almost without exception. There were plenty of players who go down under the faintest of challenges in days gone by but without much of the theatrics that surround it now.

Some of the "play-acting" is just ridiculous. People clutching their faces when no-one's touched them. Rolling around on the floor in agony at the slightest of contact. Maybe it's just me, but it winds me up enormously and it never used to as much as it does now.

The trouble is you can't hide from the TV cameras. The 17 different camera angles now will capture almost everything whereas the 3 camera angles in pre-Sky days wouldn't. The exposure that it gets now is colossal compared to what it was.

I don't wish injury on anyone. Well, not many people. But my first reaction now is that they're putting it on and that will provoke a negative reaction from me and many others. Until it's clear that they are genuinely hurt.

I would throw the book at anyone who feigns injury. For me, it's worse than a bad tackle. It is cheating of the most despicable sort and should be stamped on hard.

One of the saddest things though is that the feigning of injury is starting to creep into rugby now. A great shame but I just pray it never reaches the level that it's at now in football.

Having read this post, I am now extremely concerned. I'm sounding like my Dad!

[overkill]

Can't argue with much of that Henry. The cheating, in particular the clutching of faces etc gets on my wick as well. I would also agree that's a new thing, sadly feigning injury and diving isn't. I do think though, that saturation TV has made a major impact on the judgemental attitude of people (not just in football).

[Henry]

I've never understood why they don't seriously clamp down on anyone who dives to the ground untouched. Five match ban (or longer) ought to do the trick.

[Mylo]

What gets me is players who go down after the softest of tackles one minute and then are rock hard throwing hand bags about the next

[TameRacingDriver]

Originally Posted by Henry

I certainly agree there's never been much sympathy for opposing players but I do think it's worse now.

You cant be serious!

I am not that old, however, I am old enough to remember that crowds were a LOT more volatile back in the day. For example, black players would always get monkey chants and bananas thrown at them 20-30 years ago, does that happen now? Not anywhere near as much for sure.

You think its worse now? I really cant believe that, but then according to some people, EVERYTHING is worse nowadays

[Ian_S]

If the FA/UEFA really wanted to stamp out cheating etc, then they could easily watch the video of each game and retrospectively hand out punishment through fines, cards or bans. If they did that it would soon stop. Instead they hide behind this stance of if the ref doesn't report it they won't do anything. Sorry, but the ref can't see everything and will get things wrong.

Two of the worst recent incidents were Reyes against Real where he rolled back onto the pitch, and Messi for Barca who after checking the ref was watching did his best Reyes impression. I think both players should have been retrospectively red carded.

[stg]

I'd never actually heard about this when it happened, christ, that's pretty bad.

I can recall one time in a United VS Liverpool match Gary Neville got a knock from one of the players, had to go the side-lines with blood coming out of his boot/socks, I could just see behind him one Liverpool fan saying "GET THE UP!" and mouthing him continuously.

[Joe90sDad]

Originally Posted by mrtbag

Oh sorry, there was me forgetting that all the countries football fans were at anfield that day. Don't get me wrong, I agree the behaviour is disgusting, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

3500 arrests in a year. How many actually went to a game in that same period. 350,000? more?

My point is, as a whole, football violence is still peformed by a minority of fans.

3500 arrests of people who were seen and then caught. Doesn't mean thousands don't walk away scot free or join in on the sidelines to a lesser degree.

There are a relative minority who go simply looking for trouble but many others who then get involved. A few beers or just the enviroment and the otherwise passive fan suddenly wants to become 'one of der lads'.