Old Firm in England/European league

QuietRiot1983 · 09-10-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Rangers chief executive Martin Bain believes the Ibrox club will have left the Scottish Premier League behind in the next 10 years.

And Bain suggested that a new European set-up might be the likely escape route for Rangers and Glasgow rivals Celtic.

When asked by BBC Sport if he thought Rangers would be playing elsewhere within a decade, Bain replied: "I do.

"There are a number of like-minded clubs who are currently hamstrung by the environment they are in."

An Atlantic League involving clubs from outside the five major European leagues; England, Spain, Germany, Italy and France, has been discussed at length before.

And Celtic chief executive Peter Lawwell, speaking to the BBC on Wednesday, was cool on the idea being investigated again, preferring to court a move to England.

However, Bain is determined to explore every possibility when it comes to increasing Rangers' stature and spending power.

"There are a number of big clubs playing in smaller leagues," he added. "And I think there will be a wind of change.

"I understand all the cross-border aspects but there are a number of like-minded clubs, who are currently hamstrung by the environment they are in.

"As that groundswell grows, I think Uefa will take note and maybe that will lead to other things.

"We have to be invited to a party. So we need to maintain our club and its infrastructure in order that at the time to be invited, we are there or thereabouts, then that's an objective."

Bain spoke of his frustration at seeing the lowest placed club in the English top flight earning almost 15 times what the top club in Scotland can garner through sponsorship and media rights.

And he believes the Old Firm are an attractive proposition for broadcasters.

"What the media companies want is the live spectacle and full houses," he added. "Celtic and Rangers have got that in abundance with our fan bases.

"We are a huge club commercially. Our fans are the lifeblood.

"If you couple that with the additional media revenue that might come with a new opportunity, we certainly would be a club to be reckoned with in any league in the world."

With Lawwell saying Celtic would consider any route that could lead to the English Premier League, manager Tony Mowbray said the issue was being spoken about within football circles.

"It's something our club would be interested in listening to of course," he told BBC Sport. "Where do I think we are in a football context having had experience of the English Premier League?

"Glasgow Celtic, and indeed our city rivals would fit into the Premier League pretty well."

I know this is a topic that rears its head every now and again, but what are your thoughts?

Personally, I think if it happens, they should start in a league 2 campaign, as it's just not fair on Championship clubs if two teams leapfrog them into the prem.
Aside from that, I'm pretty sure they'd stay outside the prem, Scottish football is dire, and I really don't think they'd hack it until the money started to make a difference to their tranfer market capabilities.

arthurdentpc · 09-10-2009, 11:35 AM

Problem is, it also wouldn't be fair on League 1 clubs if they got straight into the Championship, and I would guess it would be open to legal challenges wherever they would be placed. Do their fans even want it ?

GasDad · 09-10-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuietRiot1983

Personally, I think if it happens, they should start in a league 2 campaign, as it's just not fair on Championship clubs if two teams leapfrog them into the prem.

Why on earth should they start in League 2 ?

If they want to join the football league - let them - but they can start at the bottom where everyone else does. Depending on their nearest league. they'll only be 8 seaons away from the conference.

Wimbledon AFC had to do it - why should Rangers / Celtic be treated any differently?

dazza74 · 09-10-2009, 12:02 PM

I think the standard of football amongst the old firm is good enough to put them automatically into the coca cola championship myself. I think what you would have to consider doing so as to not penalise the existing leagues is make the coca cola championship two clubs bigger as a result.

I'd love to see them in English football, the SPL even with them in it can't command decent TV money now and the SPL fans are now frankly paying through the nose to watch their teams having to fork out for Sky & ESPN subscriptions to see all the games. Maybe the cost will come down with the absense of the old firm to a level that in future BBC Scotland can afford to pay.

Macca10 · 09-10-2009, 12:07 PM

Stupid idea, yeah lets go from being constant title contenders to probable yo-yo teams. Rangers & Celtic would struggle in the Premier League in there current state, sure they could pick up better players eventually with the increase in revenue but i can't see it making that much of a difference.

Also, do the English clubs want clubs visiting them and only bringing a small band of away fans week in, week out? What about English fans travelling up here every week? Plausible? Or the police factor? Remember Manchester? Why wont they do England Vs Scotland at international level?

Pipe dreams, just like the days gon by of European-Super leagues...nonsense.

dazza74 · 09-10-2009, 12:13 PM

Newcastle ain't a million miles from Scotland though is it. Plymouth Argyle to Newcastle that's a fair old poke ain't it

QuietRiot1983 · 09-10-2009, 12:17 PM

Aye, the possible meeting of Pompey and Celtic would probably be moved to a monday night, 8pm KO by sky and their scant regard for fans.

dazza74 · 09-10-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca10

Why wont they do England Vs Scotland at international level?

Club level it's more united nations though isn't it. For my money it's more a Scottish thing this than an English thing. Not a peep on this forum for example when Scotland don't qualify for a major tournament. As soon as England balls up though qualifying for a major tournament the filfth that gets posted on here has to be seen to be believed, I've been a member long enough to know.

gosties · 09-10-2009, 12:24 PM

A few issues :-

1) Domestic lack of competition means that their fans are used to their teams collecting all trophies. Would be interesting to see how they handle their "glory days" being over.

2) If you look or read about Premiership attendances the Old-Firm are not required at the moment. Nor do they need their large travelling supports.

3) Their playing squads are dire and would require a major overhaul to probably get out of the Championship. Then a further overhaul would be required to stay in the Premiership.

4) The assumption that they would be challenging the top-four immediuately would be fanciful. Squad building would take at least three years if not longer.

5) The level of finance required to challenge the top four raise another question. Where would this finance be obtained from as you can't rely on an endless supply of saudi's to pump money in.

6) The Champions League would be a no-go for years for either club due the squad building necessity.

7) As the English FA nominates the Champions League places is it definitive that they would put the Glasgow teams forward. The same question applies to the Welsh clubs if they were in a position to enter the competition.

8) England is not like Scotland in that probably their a few major clubs with large supports and resources to match the old-firm. Namely Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester Utd, Manchester City, Newcastle, Tottenham.

9) Celtic and Rangers have not been a major force in Europe for a few decades now. The mid 60's to mid 70's was the golden period for either club. Their teams did well in competition at that time. Their heroics in the Uefa/Europa Cup pail as the competition is seen as a consolation prize around Europe.

ldoodle · 09-10-2009, 3:03 PM

Agree with the comments about them not getting into top 4, even top half of Premier League. They obviously won't start in anything lower than that - can you see their fans travelling all that way to watch them play conference football! - so for a few years relegation/promotion rules would need to be adjusted to account for them.

For that reason I can't see it happening. I see a European league before them joing the EPL.

Macca10 · 09-10-2009, 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dazza74

Club level it's more united nations though isn't it. For my money it's more a Scottish thing this than an English thing. Not a peep on this forum for example when Scotland don't qualify for a major tournament. As soon as England balls up though qualifying for a major tournament the filfth that gets posted on here has to be seen to be believed, I've been a member long enough to know.

That's what i was getting at in malicious way.

I attended both games back in 2000 and i was involved in some serious battles on Buchana St in Glasgow. The trouble that these two playing in any English league could bring is a reason in its self to kick the idea out the window.

Think of what happened in Manchester(I was there), then think of recently with Millwal & West Ham? Do these sound like good combinations...

GasDad · 09-10-2009, 4:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldoodle

Agree with the comments about them not getting into top 4, even top half of Premier League. They obviously won't start in anything lower than that - can you see their fans travelling all that way to watch them play conference football! - so for a few years relegation/promotion rules would need to be adjusted to account for them.

.

They'd have to start at the bottom.

But, is there any reason why they can't simply create another team/club and enter that at the bottom of the league pyramid ?

SHATNERSTACTIC · 09-10-2009, 4:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasDad

They'd have to start at the bottom.

But, is there any reason why they can't simply create another team/club and enter that at the bottom of the league pyramid ?

There's been Scottish based teams in the English pyramid (Gretna) and vice versa (Berwick), plus of course there's the Welsh too. Plenty of precedent there for a non-English side in the pyramid.

Last season the Football League informed Team Bath (a university team) of the Conference South that they would not be accepted if they were to win promotion from the Conference Premier. That's the only example outside the usual ground grading reasons I can think where a team have not been allowed to progress. (since election was done away with that is)

hdsport · 09-10-2009, 5:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasDad

They'd have to start at the bottom.

But, is there any reason why they can't simply create another team/club and enter that at the bottom of the league pyramid ?

Well Celtic have said they are looking at starting at the bottom.

BBC SPORT | Football | My Club | C | Celtic | SPL unfazed by Old Firm exit talk

As for legal challenges if they joined higher e.g in an EPL2, I guess there's either compensation that could be paid to placate clubs (the extra tv revenue can help with that) or the clubs try and breakaway from the pyramid completely becoming 'franchises' like the Superleague.

dazza74 · 10-10-2009, 12:08 PM

I could be wrong but I think you've got to go back to 84/85 when Aberdeen won it to find a club other than the old firm winning the top league in Scottish football. Interesting I've been looking through some stats and it was only won by the old firm from 1904/05 - 1930/31 the top league, been going on for over a 100 years you could say this domination.

With situations like this exceptional circumstances require exceptional measures, you can't have clubs of this size plying their trade in below League 1 at a push, the championship for me is a more appropriate place to put them.

GasDad · 10-10-2009, 1:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dazza74

With situations like this exceptional circumstances require exceptional measures, you can't have clubs of this size plying their trade in below League 1 at a push, the championship for me is a more appropriate place to put them.

As a supporter of a league 1 team, I'd find that somewhat unfair.

dazza74 · 10-10-2009, 1:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasDad

As a supporter of a league 1 team, I'd find that somewhat unfair.

The way I'd propose doing it is to increase the size of the respective league to accomodate them. There's no easy way to integrate these two clubs sadly, somebody will suffer somewhere down the line. There could be benefits to this proposal though, it could open up potentially an extra place in both the CL & Europa league if the English game is willing to accomdate the old firm.

I think the most important thing prior to any decision is for club members or existing season ticket holders of both Rangers & Celtic to vote on and decide the direction they wish the club to go in.

Abbeygoo · 10-10-2009, 2:32 PM

I don't think they should be allowed in anywhere in the Football League structure. They are Scottish teams in an existing league that would virtually kill the remaining teams or at very best send the league into a part time mode.

People will quote Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham have all played in the English leagues but there isn't a professional league in Wales to the same extent as in Scotland. Just because they are the two stand out teams and they are not getting the money the English teams are, they want to join the party .... tough.

What next, we invite Lyon and Marseille in too?

I think the English Football League should concentrate on more pressing matters and help clubs like Accrington Stanley etc rather than try to shoe horn two Scottish clubs into our League. It should be a firm 'NO!' .... unless you want to do what AFC Wimbledon and FC United of Manchester have done and start at the very beginning.

dazza74 · 10-10-2009, 2:42 PM

I think £13 million a year in TV money for the rights has pretty much killed of the SPL imo.

Most of the English clubs would fold imo if it wasn't for the Sky money, even a club like Arsenal can't even pay the players wages of the back of gate receipts alone now.

GasDad · 10-10-2009, 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dazza74

The way I'd propose doing it is to increase the size of the respective league to accomodate them. There's no easy way to integrate these two clubs sadly, somebody will suffer somewhere down the line.

Increasing the size of the league isn't really an option.

Quote:

There could be benefits to this proposal though, it could open up potentially an extra place in both the CL & Europa league if the English game is willing to accomdate the old firm.

How do you work that out ?

Why would (or should) the Scottish FA give up one its places to the English FA?

Quote:

I think the most important thing prior to any decision is for club members or existing season ticket holders of both Rangers & Celtic to vote on and decide the direction they wish the club to go in.

And then ask the season ticket holders of the leagues they wish to be shoe horned into ?

Scholes18 · 10-10-2009, 2:59 PM

Why wont this buffoonery of an idea just go away and die?

*RMCF* · 10-10-2009, 5:46 PM

This will open up a can of worms.

If Celtic/Rangers get the go ahead, then whats to stop Benfica/Porto/Sporting looking to get into La Liga? Anderlecht/Standard getting into the Dutch LEague?

Many leagues in Europe are dominated by 2, 3 or 4 Top teams (and the EPL is now no different) - eventually all these teams that are outside the elite may just look to finally form the Euro league under the level of the CL, which has been touted for a while.

Personally I think if the big teams all walk away from their own championships then the football in each country will fade dramatically.

If we get another 10 years of Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool (and now perhaps Man City) dominating the EPL, why would they not look to move away from their own league? Why would they want to continue playing the Stokes, Fulhams, Wigans, Hulls's of this world (no offence meant).

dazza74 · 10-10-2009, 6:22 PM

End of the day guys, I'm a neutral fan. I'm happy to see them join an english league if they wish to do so.

JohnG · 10-10-2009, 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholes18

Why wont this buffoonery of an idea just go away and die?

I think it's people like Sky who keep opening this topic up for discussion. I don't want our league to change and I don't want any existing teams in any of the Leagues to have to drop out to accommodate teams from another independent country.

dazza74 · 11-10-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMCF

If Celtic/Rangers get the go ahead, then whats to stop Benfica/Porto/Sporting looking to get into La Liga? Anderlecht/Standard getting into the Dutch LEague?

I'm not sure the Portugese & Dutch leagues are in the same sort of problems as the Scottish league is currently as far as interest in their game goes. If you look at stats based purely on population Portugal has £10m, Netherlands £16m as opposed to Scotland's £5m. You've then got to factor in on your door stop easy TV access (if you willing to pay for it granted) of arguably the best league in the world (for entertainment) in the shape of the EPL. Then there's the rich heritage to fall back on from both these nations, Dutch best team never to have won the world cup imo, portugal best player currently in the world (according to UEFA) you simply don't get this sort of talent finding it's way out of the scottish game imo.

Football clubs are businesses now, there's little to no romance left in the game you either have the money to compete or you don't. I think Rangers & Celtic are looking for a life line myself from somebody, and I hope we in the english game are willing to provide it.

JohnG · 11-10-2009, 12:24 PM

So it's OK for the Scots to slag us off and demand independence when it suits them, but then they expect us to welcome them with open arms to out league !

dazza74 · 11-10-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnG

So it's OK for the Scots to slag us off and demand independence when it suits them, but then they expect us to welcome them with open arms to out league !

Business is business, this is nothing to do with Scotland v England. It's about Celtic & Rangers protecting the long term interests of their club.

JohnG · 11-10-2009, 12:37 PM

It's also about people like me wanting a Scottish team free league as well

Not meaning to be down against the Scots as I have a few good Scottish friends, but I don't want them in our league.

dazza74 · 11-10-2009, 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnG

It's also about people like me wanting a Scots free league as well

Not meaning to be down against the Scots as I have a few good Scottish friends, but I don't want them in our league.

I might actually show a bit of interest in anything below the EPL if the old firm joined

FZR400RRSP · 11-10-2009, 2:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnG

It's also about people like me wanting a Scots free league as well

Not meaning to be down against the Scots as I have a few good Scottish friends, but I don't want them in our league.

Eh?
Are you for real?
Scots-free league?
Does that include the scottish players who're already there?
Or just Scottish teams, even though the number of actual scotsmen in those teams is negligible?

What an utterly moronic statement.