Español Français Deutsch Italiano Nederlands Svenska Dansk Japanese Chinese (Simplified) Russian
 
AVForums.com twitter AVForums is a member of CEDIA. THX certified reviewer.  Click for more information. AVForums reviewers are ISF Certified.  Click for more information.
 
The UK's biggest and best home entertainment electronics forums  
4 million visitors each month


Forums Register Blogs Information Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   AVForums.com > Audio Electronics > Speakers

Today's price checkPowered by
Onkyo HTX-22HD Speaker Package Black
Wharfedale Diamond 9.0 Bookshelf Speakers Beech
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Rosewood
Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 Black
Onkyo HTX-22HD Speaker Package Black 
Wharfedale Diamond 9.0 Bookshelf Spea... 
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Rosewood 
Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 Black 
Wharfedale XARUS XR-5000 Black Ash 
KEF KHT-2005.3 Speaker Package Black 
Denon SCM37 Black 
Yamaha NSP280 Speaker Package Black 
Harman Kardon HKTS 7 
Bose 161Black 
 More...Prices updated November 21st at 9:30pm and include delivery.

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A taste of things to come? andykn Motoring 9 09-01-2009 12:56 PM
EP30 firmware 1.1/1.3 straight to 4.0 edworthy13 HD DVD Players 5 08-01-2009 6:15 PM
Need a Subwoofer to complete the set Paris84 Subwoofers and Tactile Transducers 5 08-01-2009 12:38 PM
Please help!!! evgeniy8 Forum Feedback & News Archive 0 08-01-2009 2:07 AM

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-01-2009, 2:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,420
Thanks: Gave 139, Got 108
Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

A few questions for you knowledgeable guys. Could someone explain to me what the following refer to interms of speakers:

* Frequency Response
* Sensitivity
* Crossover



Example.

Speaker A:

* Frequency Response: 80Hz - 18Khz
* Sensitivity: 89 dB/w
* Crossover: None

Speaker B:

* Frequency response: 43Hz - 40kHz
* Sensitivity: 88 dB/w
* Crossover frequency: 280Hz - 2.8kHz


Which is better, and how and why?
__________________
50PZ80B. 42PX80B. PS3. Wii. Sony DSG820. KEF IQ5SE+Anthony Gallo+BK Gemini.Harmony 1000. SkyHD. HTPC:1080p/MediaPortal | Sony A700 / Sigma 10-20mm F4 / Sony 50mm F1.4 flickr
Maxamus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2009, 9:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 16
Thanks: Gave 0, Got 1
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

You can't really say that either of those speakers is better, as we are only presented with some technical performance details.

I'll explain the terms you've listed for speaker B

Frequency response: 43Hz - 40kHz
Frequency response is usually defined as the -3dB of a speakers response to a flat input. Ideally this means that the speaker produces a flat(ish) response between 43Hz and 40kHz in the speaker B example. At 43Hz and 40kHz its response is 3dB less than that of the flat response between those frequencies.

If you do a search for images of frequency response, you'll see a graph of what I mean.


Sensitivity: 88 dB/w
This is a measurement of how much acoustic output is produced by the speaker with reference to electrical input (basically how efficient the speaker is).

Crossover frequency: 280Hz - 2.8kHz
In the case of a two-way speaker (two drive units, ie mid/bass and tweeter), the input signal needs to be split, to send high frequencies to the tweeter and low to the mid/bass, a crossover splits this signal at a certain frequency. In the case of Speaker B, its either a three-way speaker with cross-overs at 280Hz and 2.8kHz, or (this option I don't think is the case though), its a variable crossover.

Neither speaker is 'better'. I can only comment on the differences;

Speaker A is ever so slighter more efficient (Sensitivity)

Speaker B covers a wider acoustic range (ie, lower bass and higher treble)

Speaker B is probably a three-way speaker, with inbuilt crossover. Speaker A is possibly a full range speaker (ie one type of drive unit), with no inbuilt crossover.

hope this helps.
Russ7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks from:
Maxamus (10-01-2009)
Old 08-01-2009, 9:44 AM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ashford, Surrey
Posts: 754
Thanks: Gave 6, Got 57
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxamus View Post
Which is better, and how and why?
As Russ says, it’s impossible to say which one will sound better based upon technical figures.

Are these real speakers that you’re trying to decide between?

__________________
Musical Fidelity A3.2 cd, Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated, Focal Electra 1007 S.
phil t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2009, 10:20 AM   #4 (permalink)
Prominent Member
 
Mark.Yudkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zurich, CH
Posts: 4,097
Thanks: Gave 18, Got 587
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Just to expand on Russ's answer with the maths:

1) Although the "norm" for frequency responses is -3dB at the extreme, many speakers today quote at -6dB (!), hence it's important to consider this part of the spec. 1 Bel (10 deciBel) means a factor of 10 (it's a log10 scale), hence -3dB is 10**0.3 ~= 0.5 the power (Sound Pressure Level) and -6dB is 10**-0.6 ~= 0.25 of the power (SPL). From a hearing perspective, -1B is generally considered to be between "half" and "third" as loud. From an amp perspective, you need 10 times the power to achieve 1Bel, or roughly twice the power for each 3dB.

Human hearing tops out at 20Hz - 20kHz, achievable by a select collection of young children. If you're a young female adult, you might still be close, if you're a male adult, you're probably already maxing out well below 18kHz. A speaker quoting "40kHz" is playing a number's game.

2) Sensitivity is the SPL an is usually measured at 1 metre and 2.83V. Since W=V**2/Z, this is the same as 1 Watt into 8 Ohms. As you move further from the speaker the power drops to 25% (factor 4, -6dB) per doubling of distance (sound covers an area). So 89dB at 1m is 83dB at 2m, 77dB at 4m, etc.

As Russ and Phil have said, your last question cannot be answered based on these figures.
__________________
- Mark
Arcam: AV9, P1000, DV137, CD82, DT91. Quad: ESL-63 (stereo). Martin Logan: Fresco i (surrounds & rears), Depth i. (No centre).
Mark.Yudkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks from:
Maxamus (10-01-2009)
Old 08-01-2009, 10:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ashford, Surrey
Posts: 754
Thanks: Gave 6, Got 57
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark.Yudkin View Post
Human hearing tops out at 20Hz - 20kHz, achievable by a select collection of young children. If you're a young female adult, you might still be close, if you're a male adult, you're probably already maxing out well below 18kHz. A speaker quoting "40kHz" is playing a number's game.
Not forgetting that the highest frequency reproduced by a cd player is around the 22KHz mark.

__________________
Musical Fidelity A3.2 cd, Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated, Focal Electra 1007 S.
phil t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2009, 12:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
Prominent Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,593
Thanks: Gave 4, Got 780
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Excellent responses from all.

In your A and B speaker example, I would say, speaker 'B' has better specs, but that doesn't mean it is a better speaker. Though in general, a single cone speaker, unless it is massively expensive, is going to have some problems.

Here is a link to a frequency response graph for a single cone speaker.

Goldwood GW-8003/8 8" Full Range Driver w/Whizzer

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-379g.pdf

Notice how uneven everything gets above 1khz. This is typical. Now the speaker in the link above is only US$25, so we can't expect miracles.

However, here is a link to a single Dayton 4" single cone full range speaker that has been equalized with a graphic equalizer to produce amazing response.

HTGuide Forum - " Full Range " Dayton RS100S project

Compare the two graphs in post#1 with the graph the link at the top.

As pointed out, the frequency response rating is either -3db or -6db down from the average level. Three db is a slight but noticeable change in the sound level, but it represents a doubling or halving of the power levels.

But the tuning of the speaker cabinet has a great deal to do with how you perceive the bass level. You can tune a cabinet to have a slight peak in the bass, but that means, below the peak, it drops off at a faster rate. If this cabinet tuning get too extreme, you have a cabinet with what is called 'one note bass'; in other words, a typical 'boom' box.

Using this cabinet tuning technique, you can make a speaker that has poor low end response sound like it has good bass. So, the Speaker 'A', could sound good, yet still have a seemingly poor 80hz cutoff on the low end.

As to Sensitivity, initially, upon its inception, it seemed like a good idea since it provided a way to compare all speaker with the same input. Typically it is measured with a calibrated microphone and an Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter at a specific level at a specific distance.

But a controversy occurred. Should speaker all be fed the exact same signal, 2.83 volts, or should the be fed the same power (1 watt). Speaker are actually voltage driven devices. You feed them a voltage signal and they consume power. So, that school of thought says the fair way to compare speakers is with a fix and known (2.83v) signal.

Other say if you feed 1 watt to an 8 ohm speaker, then you should feed 1 watt to a 4 ohm speaker. But the voltage necessary to feed one watt to a 4 ohms speaker is 2 volts, and the voltage necessary to feed one watt to 16 ohms is 4 volts. To get these voltages, you are either turning the volume control up or down to reach one watt. But how can you say you compared two speakers equally when you turned the volume up or down for one of them?

So, frequently if you look at full specs, it with either say, 90db at 2.83v measured at 1 meter. Or it will say, 90db at 1 watt measured at 1 meter. Unless the speakers are both 8 ohms, that's not necessarily a fair comparison.

Most have adopted a uniform 2.83 volts, others choose which ever method gives them the better numbers.

The crossover frequencies are nice information to have and give you some sense of the underlying design philosophy, but you can't really make a value judgment based on that information. Again, it is just nice to know information.

So, I guess when you add it all up, even though there seem to be standards for these various rating, they are not all that standardized. For example, if you want to inflate your frequency response, that is, make it seem lower and higher than it really is, you simply quote it at -6db instead of -3db. Typically that will gain you roughly 5hz or possibly a little more on the low end.

If you want higher apparent Sensitivity, you test it at both a fixed 2.82volts and a 1 watt and use which ever number is higher.

Remember from above, that 3db represents twice as much power. So, if you have two speakers, and one is rated at 90db and the other is rated at 87db, the 90db speaker is going to take half the power to reach a given volume.

But also remember that power and volume aren't linear. It takes 10 TIMES the power to double the volume, and a slight but noticeable change in volume represents a doubling of the power. So, in the example, even though it takes twice the power for one speaker to equal the perceived sound level of the other, that is only a slight difference in perceived volume level.

So, the conclusion is that you can't rely totally on specs. They do give you valuable information, but nothing tells you more than a good long listen to the speaker using material you are familiar with.

So in summary -

Frequency response is the working range of the speaker. But the sound doesn't absolutely cut off at those frequencies. At those rated frequencies, the sound has started to roll off or fade, and continues to fade on a shallow downward slope. You do get sound below these rated level, it is just reduced sound. So, even a speaker rated at 40hz might still allow you to hear 30hz noted, they just won't be very loud.

Sensitivity is a supposedly standardized method of indicating a speakers efficiency. The higher the number the more efficient the speaker is. Most speaker are in the range of 85db to 95db, with most being in the high 80's and a few in the low 90's. This is mostly a concern if you are using a low powered amp. But it does give some way of making a relative judgment on a speaker.

Crossovers are neither good or bad. If you have a speaker with more than one driver, it must have a crossover of some type. The specific frequencies can give you some underlying sense of the design, but there is nothing you can do about them. The selected frequencies have been matched to the specific speakers, and must be where they are.

Another aspects of a speaker, is whether it is ported or sealed. Ported speakers are generally more efficient, but that doesn't mean sealed speaker sound worse. A seal speaker or acoustic suspension or infinite baffle speaker and better control cone movement, and in better speakers, can actually sound better.

Ported cabinets or Bass Reflex cabinets have an extra hole or opening cut into them which is tuned by a tube or port to a specific frequency; usually a very low frequency. This raise the overall efficiency of the speaker and cause it to resonate at a predetermined low frequency that help re-enforce the bass.

Either cabinet design done wrong will sound bad, but, if done right, either type can sound very good.

Ported cabinets come in various type. They can be front ported, rear ported, and technically the port can be on the bottom, the top, or the sides, it really doesn't matter.

Rear ports are more common now, but it is mostly a trend. The problem with rear ports is they require a certain amount of distance between the speaker and the wall behind. Many living rooms are too small to accommodate this distance. Though, fairly, the distance is only significant for larger speakers.

Just a few additional thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
BlueWizard is online now   Reply With Quote
Thanks from:
Maxamus (10-01-2009), RationalGaze (13-01-2009), Spiderkid (09-01-2009)
Old 09-01-2009, 6:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,420
Thanks: Gave 139, Got 108
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Wow thank you very much for the detailed responses.

Speaker A is the Anthony Gallo Micro
Speaker B is the Kef IQ5SE floor standers

i just wanted to know how they compare.
I have the Kef's as the fronts and the Gallo's as center and rears
__________________
50PZ80B. 42PX80B. PS3. Wii. Sony DSG820. KEF IQ5SE+Anthony Gallo+BK Gemini.Harmony 1000. SkyHD. HTPC:1080p/MediaPortal | Sony A700 / Sigma 10-20mm F4 / Sony 50mm F1.4 flickr
Maxamus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2009, 10:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 133
Thanks: Gave 1, Got 10
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxamus View Post
Wow thank you very much for the detailed responses.

Speaker A is the Anthony Gallo Micro
Speaker B is the Kef IQ5SE floor standers

i just wanted to know how they compare...
Don't get too hung up on the measurements, just listen to them both and buy the ones you like the sound of the best. Of all the things in the sound reproduction chain, speakers are the hardest to judge by how they measure

Mike
__________________
Denon DVD1920 - Pinnacle Showcentre 200 - Sony PSII - Nintendo Wii - Denon AVR1906 - BFD FBQ2496 - IPL M3TL - Kef Q9C - MS 903i - Home made sub - Hitachi PJ-TX200

My home cinema pics: http://www.avforums.com/forums/members-home-cinema-gallery/611286-mikes-attic-cinema-games-room.html
Sawdust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2009, 11:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
Prominent Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,593
Thanks: Gave 4, Got 780
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Speaker A is the Anthony Gallo Micro
Speaker B is the Kef IQ5SE floor standers


Well, now that we've answered your question, you have to establish some context for it. It seems odd that you are considering these two VERY different speakers.

Unless I am mistaken the Anthony Gallo Micros are small globe shaped speakers, and you are comparing these to the very substantial Kef floorstanders? Again, it seems odd that you would compare two such seriously different speakers.

How do they compare on price?

Likely, the Anthony Gallo are not meant to be stand alone speakers, but speakers specifically intended to be part of a system the certainly includes a Sub.

But the Kef floorstanders should stand alone nicely as either stereo speakers or speakers in a surround system.

So, again, please establish some context as to why you are comparing such an odd pair of speakers.

Steve/bluewizard
BlueWizard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2009, 11:50 PM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
W Axl Rose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 47
Thanks: Gave 15, Got 16
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxamus View Post
i just wanted to know how they compare.
I have the Kef's as the fronts and the Gallo's as center and rears
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post



So, again, please establish some context as to why you are comparing such an odd pair of speakers.

Steve/bluewizard
.
__________________
Samsung-LE37A557 Philips-DFR1600 Onkyo-576 Sony-BDPS350 Mission-E34, E30, EC, E3A SR GALE-4040, 4010, 4050C Marantz-CD6002 Harmon Kardon-DC520
W Axl Rose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2009, 12:28 AM   #11 (permalink)
Prominent Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,593
Thanks: Gave 4, Got 780
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

W Axl Rose,

Thanks, I missed that part.

Steve/bluewizard
BlueWizard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2009, 1:45 AM   #12 (permalink)
AVF Hardware Reviewer
 
Russell.Williams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The Fen Edge
Posts: 7,810
Thanks: Gave 531, Got 1,125
Blog Entries: 12
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Yesterday, I started typing this:

Speaker A has no crossover so is a single full range driver.

Speaker B has two crossover points and is therefore a three way system which given that it contains driver dedicated to a specific part of the frequency spectrum, explains why it can achieve both higher and lower frequencies simultaneously.

Speaker A could be a single four inch Jordan driver in a small sealed box, or it could be a large electrostatic panel.

Speaker B is more likely a moderate box, possibly floor-standing.
I then got tired and went to bed, but the window was still open when I got back to me pooter this evening.

I wasn't that far out, although in the context of the intervening discussion I'd I'd take a look at dumping the Gallo centre and have a look at the iQ6c as a matching centre. It would be a tonally and dynamically superior match.

I'd also add that whilst only schoolgirls and bats can register over 18kHz, if being young or furry was all there is to hearing quality treble, then tweeter development would have stopped with the KEF T27 in about 1982. In reality, a treble unit's ability to reproduce ultrasonic frequencies cleanly, has a bearing on it's capabilities within the audible band so whilst not total proof of a driver's quality, it does have a bearing on it. There are plenty of sources that will output ultrasonic frequencies these days and if they're not handled cleanly, then the dome's breakup modes will affect treble quality within the audible range.

If you think this isn't an issue, then you probably think electrostatics are the last word in speaker fidelity.

Russell
__________________
My grandfather imparted some sound advice on his death bed. "Always get good speakers" he said.
DIY Subwoofer Build. HT Piccies.
Russell.Williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2009, 11:04 AM   #13 (permalink)
Member
 
W Axl Rose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 47
Thanks: Gave 15, Got 16
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
W Axl Rose,

Thanks, I missed that part.

Steve/bluewizard
No worries. I enjoy your comprehensive posts, didn't want to see you carry on down the same track after missing what Maxamus had written.
__________________
Samsung-LE37A557 Philips-DFR1600 Onkyo-576 Sony-BDPS350 Mission-E34, E30, EC, E3A SR GALE-4040, 4010, 4050C Marantz-CD6002 Harmon Kardon-DC520
W Axl Rose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2009, 9:23 AM   #14 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 169
Thanks: Gave 15, Got 4
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

I hope the TS doesn't mind me asking a question too. It's all related and so may be useful.

Can someone elaborate on what sets a high-end speaker apart from a 'cheaper' one?

Take a loot at my set here: http://www.techarp.com/review/Logite..._specs_big.JPG

As you see the frequency response is quite good. I'm neither a bat or a young schoolgirl so there isn't much more to gain in that area.
The rated sound pressure level is 115 dB. I'm not quite sure what that means (although already explained here I know). It appears to be rather high to me.
Lastly, what does input impedance mean?


Anyway, aside from the questions, this is a fairly cheap set and I think is has good specs. What makes the super pricey ones that much better than?
Jeroen1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2009, 4:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ashford, Surrey
Posts: 754
Thanks: Gave 6, Got 57
Re: Can Some One Explain This To Me Please

Impedance of a speaker is its resistance, capacitance and inductance, this is measured in ohms. It is normal to give impedance as a nominal figure, this is because capacitance and inductance vary with frequency. A nominal resistance of 8 ohms was “standard” for a long time although 6 ohms is becoming more common and 4 ohms is not unheard of.

Almost more important is the rarely given minimum impedance, this will give an indication of whether a particular speaker is a “tough” load ie the lower the minimum impedance the harder the speaker is to drive.


__________________
Musical Fidelity A3.2 cd, Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated, Focal Electra 1007 S.
phil t is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  AVForums.com > Audio Electronics > Speakers



Bookmarks

Tags
explain
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:31 PM.

AV Forums
Optimised for Firefox.
RSS Feed
AVForums.com is owned and operated by M2N Limited.
Copyright © 2000-2009 M2N E. & O. E.
Global Gold
Web Hosting