[Dan201]

I have put the covers on my speakers. Without them they drew a lot of attention, too much really considering they are pretty big as well.

[Dav1dF]

You can't really compare hi-fi speakers to PA speakers, as PA speakers are designed for one thing and one thing only - their frequency response is secondary to their SPL requirements.

Judging by your pics, I would move those two chairs out of the area in which the speakers are trying to produce a convincing soundstage, as they won't be helping what you're hearing.

[Rock Danger]

Originally Posted by Dan201

Quite right!

You'll find as I'm sure you're bi-amping the fronts with 1 channel left for the centre and splitting them at the L+R pre out? that they'll sound better with the A5. The main benefit of the A5 is that you'll be able to watch stuff as loud as you can handle.

I was without my A5 for ages too but the MRX did a good job driving my 205/2's - 202/2c and definitive technology bp-8 bipole rears. Now the only thing the MRX drives is the rears - bi-amp the left and right, your KEF's will thank you.

[fayeanddavid]

Originally Posted by Dav1dF

I think if I had've gone for R500's, my music will have benefitted from the extra bass depth, and I would probably have gone for the R200c or R600c centre. But, I wanted everything identical.

So David, what would be a preference for the R500s, the R200C or the R600C??

What would the 600 give over the 200 in terms of outright listening performance as a Centre speaker................?

I've heard the 200 but not the 600, what could I expect if matched with the 500s instead of the 200s, I'm thinking greater vocal depth/clarity etc???

Thanks

[Scott_Mac]

Originally Posted by fayeanddavid

So David, what would be a preference for the R500s, the R200C or the R600C??

What would the 600 give over the 200 in terms of outright listening performance as a Centre speaker................?

I've heard the 200 but not the 600, what could I expect if matched with the 500s instead of the 200s, I'm thinking greater vocal depth/clarity etc???

Thanks

Driver size matching is probably more important.... It's not as if the R200C is going to be bad but panning effects across the front axis worked a lot better in my former Dynaudio systems when the drivers were matched.... Though I do know what you mean and have found myself wondering the same thing in terms of the smaller floorstanders but the larger centre!

[DodgeTheViper]

If it was me, in all honesty, I would choose the 600 centre. Then I would decide between the R500's or the R700's. ;-)

[fayeanddavid]

Originally Posted by DodgeTheViper

If it was me, in all honesty, I would choose the 600 centre. Then I would decide between the R500's or the R700's. ;-)

Ha!!

Am I allowed to say "Get behind me Satan, and push!!"

That would then be the dilemma, although In have already accepted that the 700s are just too big for our room.

The driver size on the 200C is consistent with the 500s, but the UniQ is the same size through out the range (I think!) so the benefit is the increased driver size (or not) of the 600C..................is that making sense?

Ant thoughts??

[Dav1dF]

Originally Posted by fayeanddavid

So David, what would be a preference for the R500s, the R200C or the R600C??

What would the 600 give over the 200 in terms of outright listening performance as a Centre speaker................?

I've heard the 200 but not the 600, what could I expect if matched with the 500s instead of the 200s, I'm thinking greater vocal depth/clarity etc???

Thanks

Even though this goes against what I preach, I think I would've gone for the R600c with the R500's. The R200c is the better match as its using the same drivers, but the R600c is closer to the cabinet volume of the R500's, and will therefore sound fuller. The larger drivers of the R600c will produce a more effortless dialogue channel too, and given the centre channel is the most important speaker and deals with the majority of the signal you hear, it makes sense to me.

For me, unless I can use exactly the same centre as the front left and right, a supposedly "matching" centre - which is usually much smaller than the front pair, and a different driver array in some cases - never really matches up well enough for me. So going for an R600 is no more a mismatch than using an R200c. Either will match in very well though as they both use the same driver array and also UniQ arrangement.

[DodgeTheViper]

Same thoughts as me, it has to be the 600 centre. Struggle for me though would be the R500's or the R700's.

[Dav1dF]

Originally Posted by fayeanddavid

The driver size on the 200C is consistent with the 500s, but the UniQ is the same size through out the range (I think!) so the benefit is the increased driver size (or not) of the 600C..................is that making sense?

Ant thoughts??

The UniQ of the R500 and R600c (or any model in the R range for that matter bar the R100) are indeed exactly the same. This means the treble and upper midrange will be pretty much the same. The only way they will sound different is the way in which we perceive those upper frequencies in the presence of the bass the specific model produces - more bass can make it sound sweeter, and less bass can make it sound more prominent, and possibly more detailed.

The larger bass drivers will shift more air, and will cope better with higher volumes, sound fuller and more effortless. And obviously, if it's your preference, you can cross them over at a lower frequency.

[greenlook]

Originally Posted by Dav1dF

I've never heard the SongTowers, so I can only make assumptions. But here goes...

I do think you need to run the KEF's in for a while, as they will open up and sound better. 5-10 hours will make a difference, but don't be surprised if they're still improving after 50-100 hours.

Whenever anyone switches from a speaker they've been used to for a while, it takes time to become accustomed to the sound. Initially, I thought Spendor S5e's were extremely dull sounding with hardly any top end detail, but it took me about two months to warm to them and appreciate them (in store, so listening was here and there, not constant). Once I did, I realised that the detail was there and that they weren't dull, they were just extremely smooth. Likewise, if you were used the the Spendors, and then tried out the KEF's, you'd probably think they were way too forward and bright, regardless of the KEF's tonal balance. I hope that made the point it was intended to!

Connected to that, it depends on the SongTower's tonal balance and frequency response. I'm purely guessing here, but if they're making the KEF's sound recessed, maybe the SongTowers frequency response isn't flat. There are speakers out there with a 'manufactured' response, which could be a bass hump to make them sound "heavier", a treble hump to make them sound more exciting and initially impressive, and possibly in this case, a midrange hump to bring out mid detail and accentuate voices, or any instrument based in the midland area. So if your SongTowers are 'telling porkies' as far as accuracy is concerned, then listening to a more accurate speaker - regardless of that speaker's quality - they're not going to sound right, because of what you're used to.

I felt that for a long time, the ATC SCM11 monitor speaker was the best and most accurate speaker for £1k. I've done side by side demos with the R300, and got the two to sound very similar totally when the R300 is fully bunged. So those that want a more 'studio sound' should use the bungs. But use the outer part of the bung, and the R300's just came to life in a way that the ATC can only dream of - fair more three dimensional, and excellent projection forward toward the listener. This is one of the best speakers you'll get for the money, so if these can't see off your SongTowers, then you will need to up your budget. But if I'm right about the SongTower's frequency response, I doubt even the Reference 201/2 will do the job for you, as they're even more accurate, and far less forgiving.

I'd put your SongTowers out the way for a few weeks, get used to the KEF's, let them open up, and I'm sure they'll come to you. When you're used to them, pop on your SongTowers again. If they sound better to you, then they are your preference and the KEF's aren't the speaker for you. Remember, that auditioning a pretty accurate, well designed speaker can be a great experience, but if it's pitched against an inaccurate one, the more accurate speaker may lose out to personal preference.

I hope this helps

Thanks for an answer, I'll try to play with bungs and listen to KEFs only for now.
As far as Song Tower's measurements go I would expect those to be better than KEF's based on reviews and independent measurements of their different models. And they are pretty much the top ID company in US. Their explanation of resolving mid-range on Song Towers is high quality SEAS drivers and not a bump in mid frequencies. And according to them that same high resolution is what makes SongTowers unforgiving to bad recordings.
Sound like 201/2 would be closer to SongTowers "more accurate, and far less forgiving" so you are probably right that it's not going to work for me.

The more I think about it the more I want to have 2 systems. 1. Something super accurate, resolving for high quality recordings, 2. Something big, strong and lay back for rock and movies...

[greenlook]

Originally Posted by Doppie74

Hi,

after reading parts of the forum with great interest, I was triggered by your post to register and check in as well.

Having the R500's for some days now, I got the exact same feeling. And my girlfriend as well. She thought I had thrown a jacket over them. The disappointment was relatively big because in my case as well, my significant other had to get used to the slightly bigger height and depth (though smaller width) compared to the old ones (IQ Ladies 120).

Having spent a lot of time with speakers, both for PA systems and studio systems, this notion came immediately to me after hooking them up. I got the impression, but less strongly, in the listening room of the dealer, but I reckoned because we came down from a rather expensive set (EUR3000/pc) that was already positioned there. I was able to compare them to some PMCs and Dynaudios and liked the lows better, not really bothered by the hardly noticeable lack of presence compared to those.

Did some white noise measurement and they showed the opposite: 150-1000Hz were emphasized quite a bit

So my guess would be, that either:

• they are not as transparent as I had hoped,
• and I should play them a couple of days more,
• or the previous set was too bright (which had occurred to me quite often)
• and the room acoustics could be tweaked (although I do not have many options for that)
• my SR5005 can't drive them as accurately as I had hoped (direct mode)

BTW: I tried to set ups in my rectangular living room: one in each corner at the front wall (see picture), and one on each side of the TV which is positioned on one of the long walls. As a bonus, you can see an A/B comparison of the naked and dressed speakers. In piano black, they become incognito, while the rims make them jump out when the front covers are removed.

Good, I was starting to think I'm going crazy. And my wife actually called them "fish in oil", her way of saying "too soft".

Did some white noise measurement and they showed the opposite: 150-1000Hz were emphasized quite a bit
- I read somewhere that warmness could be caused by distortion of the drivers, that supposedly explained why 2 speakers could measure the same but 1 sounds warm (with lower quality distorting drivers) and the other sounds dry (without distortion you get higher definition). Would be nice if that information was available on manufacturer's websites. But than again there is so many theories in audio world...

I think it might be a combination of couple reasons.
[*]they are not as transparent as I had hoped,
- maybe reference series is where you the get high transparency
[*]and I should play them a couple of days more,
- I noticed that I'm getting used to highs on KEF, before they sounded too week, now it's more like they are smooth
[*]or the previous set was too bright (which had occurred to me quite often)
- I still suspect the same about my old set, even though the measurements say otherwise. They blame brightness in my old set on the recordings but it's just hard to believe that there is so much poorly recorder music out there.
[*]and the room acoustics could be tweaked (although I do not have many options for that)
- I would be afraid to install any acoustic treatment with KEFs in house.
[*]my SR5005 can't drive them as accurately as I had hoped (direct mode)
- For some reason that was not on my list, but maybe getting a bright amp would help, I'm still thinking of dual amping to get more power to mid and tweeter to see if it will open them up.

another reason like David just mentioned might be base. maybe our old system had less base. "less bass can make it sound more prominent, and possibly more detailed. "

But overall KEF sounds more pleasant on most music so it's a huge plus. And I do like R300s but if I could add the high resolution to mids and airy feeling to highs it would be a perfect speaker. which again bring me to an idea of having 2 systems.

[Doppie74]

Originally Posted by Dav1dF

You can't really compare hi-fi speakers to PA speakers, as PA speakers are designed for one thing and one thing only - their frequency response is secondary to their SPL requirements.

Obviously. Just wanted to illustrate that I had my fair share of varying sound circumstances.

Judging by your pics, I would move those two chairs out of the area in which the speakers are trying to produce a convincing soundstage, as they won't be helping what you're hearing.

That amongst many other things I had already done and it doesn't make any difference. For the lows it does, obviously, but even at half a meter from the speakers it is as if there is damping material between me and the speaker, making it sound dull.

I'm pretty convinced that the lack of presence would immediately draw the attention of any experienced listener.

[Sam Ash]

Waiting for Dan201 to report back on his system......

[Rock Danger]

Originally Posted by Sam Ash

Waiting for Dan201 to report back on his system......

I suspect he's probably spooning with it at this stage.

[Dan201]

The amp arrives tomorrow morning. Hurray!

[Rock Danger]

Originally Posted by Dan201

The amp arrives tomorrow morning. Hurray!

You never did mention how you were going to use it. You bi-amping the front L+R and the remaining channel to the centre?

[Dan201]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

I suspect he's probably spooning with it at this stage.

I can only spoon them while the Mrs isn't watching Luckily shes been at work!

Yep, the plan is to bi-amp the front pair and use the spare channel for the centre. Most of this is new to me so ive been relying on the advice on this site to help me. I can't remember if it was in this thread or the Anthem MRX one that I got the amp advice from.

I just watched one of my favourite scenes, a long action sequence from Children of Men. I try not to use the words usually used when talking about speakers such as clean, bright etc. because I think they are all comparions to other systems which the reader may not have experienced. All I can say is I enjoyed the scene so much more than I did with the Kef 3005se's.

I think its going to take a while to get used to the dipole speakers as I was used to hearing exactly where the speaker was before. Thats totally gone now. At this point im not saying dipole is better than direct firing, its just different. Probably more realistic but that doesn't mean more enjoyable.

So far im very impressed with the R series. If I sound a little less excited than others it isn't because I like them less, its more that I can't decide if they are worth the extra money over a £1k set. They are great but I am very much aware of the law of diminishing returns considering how much Ive spent.

Im holding back drawing any conclusions until Ive got an amp, which I think the R900 deserve, and have tested them during several movies.

[Dav1dF]

Originally Posted by Dan201

I think its going to take a while to get used to the dipole speakers as I was used to hearing exactly where the speaker was before. Thats totally gone now. At this point im not saying dipole is better than direct firing, its just different. Probably more realistic but that doesn't mean more enjoyable.

I've made this point a few times. Neither is better, they're just different. In studios, soundtracks are mixed on direct firing speakers all round, but dipoles/tripoles aim to diffuse the sound, to recreate the multiple side speakers you see in cinemas.

[Rock Danger]

Originally Posted by Dan201

I can only spoon them while the Mrs isn't watching Luckily shes been at work!

What they don't know....... etc.

Originally Posted by Dan201

Yep, the plan is to bi-amp the front pair and use the spare channel for the centre. Most of this is new to me so ive been relying on the advice on this site to help me. I can't remember if it was in this thread or the Anthem MRX one that I got the amp advice from.

From me maybe? I just use a couple of the audioquest hard rca splitters that are about £10 each and that takes care of splitting the signal.

Originally Posted by Dan201

I think its going to take a while to get used to the dipole speakers as I was used to hearing exactly where the speaker was before. Thats totally gone now. At this point im not saying dipole is better than direct firing, its just different. Probably more realistic but that doesn't mean more enjoyable.

They are weird, my first set of B&W's were dipoles but I swapped for bipoles as they seem to be the best of both worlds.

Originally Posted by Dan201

So far im very impressed with the R series. If I sound a little less excited than others it isn't because I like them less, its more that I can't decide if they are worth the extra money over a £1k set. They are great but I am very much aware of the law of diminishing returns considering how much Ive spent.

No, I've heard that range quite a bit and the R900's are very nice and a good bit better than the model below. I use 205/2's and they are a different beast entirely and a different price obviously, without the A5 tho they would be wasted on the MRX300 alone - altho I gotta say, it did drive them them quite well before adding the amp.

Originally Posted by Dan201

Im holding back drawing any conclusions until Ive got an amp, which I think the R900 deserve, and have tested them during several movies.

In short it'll tidy things up and you will be able to turn it up to bowel evacuating levels Nick at the HCC knows his stuff, he wouldn't oversell you something for the sake of it. I walked out of there with a bigger sub and speakers than I intended, but it was my choice entirely.

[speakerbox]

Mostly for the benefit of greenlook and Doppie74:

My R900s were too smooth and laid back when I first got them but switching to biwire completely transformed the sound. I've experimented a little and just adding external wire links between the HF and LF terminals had a similar effect. Really loving them now still smooth and easy to listen to but loads of detail and air. Worth a try for the cost of two short bits of cable .

[greenlook]

Originally Posted by speakerbox

Mostly for the benefit of greenlook and Doppie74:

My R900s were too smooth and laid back when I first got them but switching to biwire completely transformed the sound. I've experimented a little and just adding external wire links between the HF and LF terminals had a similar effect. Really loving them now still smooth and easy to listen to but loads of detail and air. Worth a try for the cost of two short bits of cable .

Thanks, will try that, my receiver actually has 2 rear channels that that can be assigned to front, so bi-amping was on my to-do list.

[Sam Ash]

Anyone had the chance to establish the difference between the iQ90, Q900 and R900 ?

Furthermore, the difference between the Q900 and R900 ?

Same applies to the highest centre speaker model in each category ?

[Sam Ash]

Apologies, I read through this whole thread and sort of got the answer to my above question. However, feel free to give me your personal experience.

[Sam Ash]

David, I have a question for you and will appreciate your help. I'm looking at setting up a dedicated home theatre in the near future. The room size is approximately 4m x 8m and I'm looking at a 7.1 configuration.

I'd like to incorporate the R900 for the front left and right and the R600c for the centre. My question to you is whether it would be better to incorporate R800ds for the sides and R300 for the back or just do the HTS9001 sat speakers for the sides and back. Apparently the HTS9001 speaker is slim and better oriented to mounting on the walls. From your posts, I can tell you're accustomed to THX standards and I too respect them but I feel THX leans more towards commercial theatre set-ups although it is now being applied to home set-ups.

It's just that allot of people feel that a direct radiating speaker like the KHT9001 or R300 work better as side placed speakers than dipoles.

I thought I'd ask you this very important question as you seem to have allot of experience with such matters and I'm sure you know the realistic differences.

Furthermore, what would be the ideal amp or separates to bring out the full potential of the R900s and associated speakers. I really like what I've been reading about Emotiva but they don't seem to have a UK distributor. Emotiva processor and amp combos provide performance and value for money, any such company / brand in the UK ?

[Jules]

Hi Sam, allow me to answer.

As you may have gathered from reading the KEF threads, I own the R800ds and the rest of the R series. Over the years I've also owned a few dipole speakers and direct firing speakers for use in a surround system.

Having tried both in lots of different configurations, I've concluded that a good dipole is better, and both the Q800ds and R800ds are great examples of a good dipole. I don't think I could go back to a direct radiator now.. just too distracting and annoying.

On anther note, I've now owned my R500, R200c, R800ds and R400b subwoofer for a quite a while now, and they still impress me.
Everybody who sees them and hears them comments on how lovely they look and how fabulous they sound.

I've not been this satisfied with a set of speakers since 1999 when I bought the KEF THX TDM series which I kept for 9 years ....and I can see me keeping hold of these R series for that long.
In the 3 years between the TDMs and the R series I went through about 4 different sets.

[Dav1dF]

Apologies Sam, it's been a bit of a rep-fest in here today! I started this at about 10am, and I've just finished!

Originally Posted by Sam Ash

David, I have a question for you and will appreciate your help. I'm looking at setting up a dedicated home theatre in the near future. The room size is approximately 4m x 8m and I'm looking at a 7.1 configuration.

I'd like to incorporate the R900 for the front left and right and the R600c for the centre. My question to you is whether it would be better to incorporate R800ds for the sides and R300 for the back or just do the HTS9001 sat speakers for the sides and back. Apparently the HTS9001 speaker is slim and better oriented to mounting on the walls. From your posts, I can tell you're accustomed to THX standards and I too respect them but I feel THX leans more towards commercial theatre set-ups although it is now being applied to home set-ups.

If it was my set up, I like to have 5.1 with monopole or dipole at the rear, but if I was going 7.1, I'd prefer monopole all round. Although it is recommended to have monopole at the back and bipole at the side (to recreate the bank of speakers down the side of a cinema), I usually find most dipole speakers are quite small and weedy in comparison to the rest of the speakers. Having said that, many people use smalelr rear speakers than the fronts, so most people are used to a 'thinner' sound at the rear anyway. I think the 9001's should do fine for you - while not quite as good as the R series (in my opinion), they're an excellent choice as rear speakers that won't take over the rear and sides of your room. It'd be nice if KEF produced a R series version... (get on it Jack!)

It's just that allot of people feel that a direct radiating speaker like the KHT9001 or R300 work better as side placed speakers than dipoles.

It's a personal preference. Dipoles will diffuse the sound, which does 'lose' the speaker to an extent, but sound effects become 'vague'. Some like that, and as I say, it's more of an attempt to reproduce the same sound as the rows of side speakers in a cinema. Direct firing gives much better effects placement, and is more akin to a mixing studio, where they will use monopole speakers in order to place effects exactly where they want them.

Furthermore, what would be the ideal amp or separates to bring out the full potential of the R900s and associated speakers. I really like what I've been reading about Emotiva but they don't seem to have a UK distributor. Emotiva processor and amp combos provide performance and value for money, any such company / brand in the UK ?

I'm not familiar with the Emotiva stuff, but my R300's have been singing on the end of an Audiolab 8200AP recently. It has really given them better projection, bring the sound out of the speakers. I didn't think I had an issue with this until I tried the Audiolab, but it's worked amazingly well in my system, even without room EQ. I appreciate that a £1250 pre/processor is then going to need a power amplifier, upping the cost away from the value for money sector, but for £2k, an 8200AP can be partnered with something like a Rotel RMB1565 power amp. As a bare minimum I'd be recommending the Onkyo 818, but what I have recommended (along with the likes of Arcam's entry level AV receivers) will make the most of them without going silly money. Integrated receivers like the Yamaha RXA3010 and Pioneer SCLX85 will also do a great job.

[Sam Ash]

Hi david, thank you very much indeed for your insightful help.

If it was my set up, I like to have 5.1 with monopole or dipole at the rear, but if I was going 7.1, I'd prefer monopole all round. Although it is recommended to have monopole at the back and bipole at the side (to recreate the bank of speakers down the side of a cinema), I usually find most dipole speakers are quite small and weedy in comparison to the rest of the speakers. Having said that, many people use smalelr rear speakers than the fronts, so most people are used to a 'thinner' sound at the rear anyway. I think the 9001's should do fine for you - while not quite as good as the R series (in my opinion), they're an excellent choice as rear speakers that won't take over the rear and sides of your room. It'd be nice if KEF produced a R series version... (get on it Jack!)

Yes, an R series version would be rather nice.

I presume that the 9001 sounds better than the T301 ?

It's a personal preference. Dipoles will diffuse the sound, which does 'lose' the speaker to an extent, but sound effects become 'vague'. Some like that, and as I say, it's more of an attempt to reproduce the same sound as the rows of side speakers in a cinema. Direct firing gives much better effects placement, and is more akin to a mixing studio, where they will use monopole speakers in order to place effects exactly where they want them.

From your excellent explanation above, I think I would prefer direct firing speakers for better effects placement.

I'm not familiar with the Emotiva stuff, but my R300's have been singing on the end of an Audiolab 8200AP recently. It has really given them better projection, bring the sound out of the speakers. I didn't think I had an issue with this until I tried the Audiolab, but it's worked amazingly well in my system, even without room EQ. I appreciate that a £1250 pre/processor is then going to need a power amplifier, upping the cost away from the value for money sector, but for £2k, an 8200AP can be partnered with something like a Rotel RMB1565 power amp. As a bare minimum I'd be recommending the Onkyo 818, but what I have recommended (along with the likes of Arcam's entry level AV receivers) will make the most of them without going silly money. Integrated receivers like the Yamaha RXA3010 and Pioneer SCLX85 will also do a great job.

Now I am better informed. What is the rule of thumb, if any, when coupling an amp with speakers - is it better to exceed the speakers power rating when all channels are driven on the amp, to get the best out of the speakers ?

[Dav1dF]

Originally Posted by Sam Ash

I presume that the 9001 sounds better than the T301 ?

Yes, and they'll be more in line with the R series tonally.

What is the rule of thumb, if any, when coupling an amp with speakers - is it better to exceed the speakers power rating when all channels are driven on the amp, to get the best out of the speakers ?

I wouldn't say there's a rule of thumb I've ever read about, and I think there's too many variables to make generalisations. A more sensitive speaker doesn't need as much power as a sensitive one. A lot will depend on what sort of volume you listen at, and the size of your room too. The other issue is that the power ratings on AV receivers are rarely accurate - much of the time the rated power that is published is for one channel driven only.

The R series is pretty efficient, especially the R900's, so they don't need masses of power, but quality of amplification will make quite a difference.

[Dan201]

Ive not had much time today but I quickly played the same action scene from Children of Men as the other day.

At first I didn't think there was much difference but as the volume went up the sound seemed to actually get clearer and better rather than worse. I put it up to a volume I could never stand to watch a film and for a short burst it was simply amazing. The bullets and sound effects were insane, it just felt so real. The sad part is that its wasted in my living room really, I need a dedicated room that doesn't connect to anything else in the house.