[byron_hinson]

Well I've run some voltage tests on the Sky HD box today since I started to get a HDCP error for the first time on my philips TV set, I thought this was unusual considering this set hasn't been mentioned much in regards to the current run of HDCP errors showing up on pioneer sets.

The tests I ran on other HDMI hardware show that the Sky HD box is putting out a much higher voltage (at least my box is) when compared to ANY other HDMI based hardware. This to me signals that it can/will/might! cause damage to HDMI connections...well it can to the HDCP bus and would be a good indication on why people are getting problems.

What I ask is that those who can no longer use Sky HD on their sets due to the HDCP error, see if you can run another connection to the HDMI port which doesn't use HDCP...if that displays then Sky HD is frying the HDCP on Tv's due to a high voltage. In which case, I recommend removing Sky HD from HDMI connetions until Sky can get it fixed...my guess would be that it won't be a over the air fix.

[MJG1985]

My understanding of the problem is that it is caused only by connecting live devices together.
I.e connect the units when they are powered-down. Then turn them on and things are okay.
HDMI does a 'hand-shake' with both bits of kit, a voltage is present to do this and having them on -can- 'fry' the chip.

[brendan_dj]

Originally Posted by byron_hinson

The tests I ran on other HDMI hardware show that the Sky HD box is putting out a much higher voltage (at least my box is) when compared to ANY other HDMI based hardware.

This is interesting!
How are you measuring the voltage? do you have actual figures?
Are you measuring the voltage on a certain conductor/pin on the HDMI connector?

I remember reading a discussion on here regarding significant and strong electrical sparking when the end of the cable touches the metal casing of something.

[Ultra2man]

Originally Posted by MJG1985

My understanding of the problem is that it is caused only by connecting live devices together.
I.e connect the units when they are powered-down. Then turn them on and things are okay.
HDMI does a 'hand-shake' with both bits of kit, a voltage is present to do this and having them on -can- 'fry' the chip.

Theer is one problem with the Sky HDMI output in that it does not power down completely when you put the box into standby.
I have an Octava switchbox connected between my HD box and my display and when I put the HD box into standby the LED on the switchbox still shows that it is getting some form of signal from the Sky HDMI output. The DVD player that I also have connected to the switchbox does not do this when in standby.

[HD-Dude]

I think the failure mechanism is this one:-
Urgent - Use of HDMI from Sky HD Box.

I also think the HDCP chips are not "fried" as such, just need reprogramming (which is still a major job!).

Jim.

[midichlorian]

Got to hand it to you guys, if you're on to something I reckon Sky / Pio / Philips owe you more than a pint or two....

I await further info. with interest

[byron_hinson]

Originally Posted by brendan_dj

This is interesting!
How are you measuring the voltage? do you have actual figures?
Are you measuring the voltage on a certain conductor/pin on the HDMI connector?

I remember reading a discussion on here regarding significant and strong electrical sparking when the end of the cable touches the metal casing of something.

I'll post up some full results tomorrow when I get the chance, I did basic tests on a HD-DVD player, Samsung 950, Denon DVD Upscaling player and a test from a graphics card I'm reviewing which has HDMI on it....they were basic tests but the voltage on nearly all were identical apart from Sky HD, doesn't mean its the cause of the problem, but if its pushing a higher voltage to the TV then it can overload it and cause, at a guess, some damage to TV's that can't deal with that kind of surge.

HDMI is supposed to be a 1.0-volt as standard I believe (from work i did in a review a while ago), low voltage stops HDCP data from transmitting properly too, so that could be another reason for problems people are having if there is a voltage problem on the HDMI port on the Sky HD box, but I'm guessing the higher voltage that I'm showing can cause damage.

Its hard ground to cover as some HDMI cables differ in quality despite everyone saying its digital so quility doesn't change, but if the voltage is too low then it can cause signal problems.

I did a full test on the HDMI cable (showed higher than it should) and the two pins used for HDCP which showed slightly higher too (above the spec)

[byron_hinson]

Originally Posted by midichlorian

Got to hand it to you guys, if you're on to something I reckon Sky / Pio / Philips owe you more than a pint or two....

I await further info. with interest

If it fixes it I don't care too much, but I'm an amature when it comes to these things. Just hope that if the voltage is the cause of the problem, anyone with a damaged set gets compensated. But this is all hyperthetical at the moment.

[stevemac2006]

Does anyone know a switch box, like the octava or an amp with hdmi switching protect the screen. I'd be interested how many people with such devices have this problem (Yes I have a switch box)

[HD-Dude]

Originally Posted by stevemac2006

Does anyone know a switch box, like the octava or an amp with hdmi switching protect the screen. I'd be interested how many people with such devices have this problem (Yes I have a switch box)

I have not heard of any problems with HDCP faults occuring on TV's which are connected via HDMI to devices (including swith boxes and scalers) other than the Sky HD box directly. However, there are some devices (scalers, PJ's as well as TV's) which have failed when they are connected to the Sky HD box themselves directly.

I spoke to Pioneer who said that they were not concerned about signals to their plasmas from devices other than the Sky HD, including if you send component to an AV amp and then HDMI to the Pio media box.

I use a Denon AV switching amp with some quite sophisticated input buffering. I use HDMI directly from the Sky box to this amp and then HDMI monitor output to the Pio media box.

No trouble so far but then the HDCP protocol is not re-writable on the Denon amp.

Jim.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by byron_hinson

HDMI is supposed to be a 1.0-volt as standard I believe (from work i did in a review a while ago), low voltage stops HDCP data from transmitting properly too, so that could be another reason for problems people are having if there is a voltage problem on the HDMI port on the Sky HD box, but I'm guessing the higher voltage that I'm showing can cause damage.

Its hard ground to cover as some HDMI cables differ in quality despite everyone saying its digital so quility doesn't change, but if the voltage is too low then it can cause signal problems.

I did a full test on the HDMI cable (showed higher than it should) and the two pins used for HDCP which showed slightly higher too (above the spec)

Depends what you are measuring and how you are measuring it. At the very least you need more than just a voltmeter - more like a logic analyser - is that what you are using??

the I2C clock (SCL) and data (SDA) used for the HDCP handshake normally use 5V TTL levels that has a maximum rating of 5.5v in the I2C bus spec for standard mode devices that is used on HDMI

the TMDS signals that pass the video are DC coupled differential signals that require a 3.3v+/-5% termination supply voltage Avcc and 50 termination resistors Rt

The HDMI spec says the following:-

Single-ended high level output voltage, VH AVcc ±10mVolts
Single-ended low level output voltage, VL (AVcc – 600mVolts) ≤ VL ≤ (AVcc – 400mVolts)
Single-ended output swing voltage, Vswing 400mVolts ≤ Vswing ≤ 600mVolts
Single-ended standby (off) output voltage, VOFF AVcc ±10mVolts

Since the swing is differential on
the pair, the net signal on the pair has a swing twice that of the single-ended signal, or 2��Vswing.
The differential signal, swings between positive Vswing and negative Vswing.

This translates as a total swing of between 800mV and 1.2V

BTW, these signal must stil be OK on the failed Pioneer devices otherwise they would not work with non HDCP devices . What I am saying is you you cant just measure this stuff with a voltmeter - otherwise you will read just utter crap. You will also read crap if you measure an unconnected output without any load!! So do do this properley you need a sourc connected to a sink and to be able to breakout the signals somehow!!

Here is the HDMI pinout

PIN Signal Assignment PIN Signal Assignment
1 TMDS Data2+
2 TMDS Data2 Shield
3 TMDS Data2–
4 TMDS Data1+
5 TMDS Data1 Shield
6 TMDS Data1–
7 TMDS Data0+
8 TMDS Data0 Shield
9 TMDS Data0–
10 TMDS Clock+
11 TMDS Clock Shield
12 TMDS Clock–
13 CEC
14 Reserved (N.C. on device)
15 SCL 16 SDA
17 DDC/CEC Ground
18 +5V Power
19 Hot Plug Detect


Hot plug detect must not go beyond 5.3v

I have a copy of the 1.2 HDMI spec. PM me if anybody wants a copy.

[steve-p]

Originally Posted by stevemac2006

Does anyone know a switch box, like the octava or an amp with hdmi switching protect the screen. I'd be interested how many people with such devices have this problem (Yes I have a switch box)

Presumably it will, if the switch box is more robust than Pioneer TVs seem to be, and if it's a proper one and not just a mechanical switch.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by steve-p

Presumably it will, if the switch box is more robust than Pioneer TVs seem to be, and if it's a proper one and not just a mechanical switch.

Not necessarily - see this post.....

Pdp-436xde (this Set Is Not Hdcp Enabled)

[glimmerung]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

Depends what you are measuring and how you are measuring it. At the very least you need more than just a voltmeter - more like a logic analyser - is that what you are using??

the I2C clock (SCL) and data (SDA) used for the HDCP handshake normally use 5V TTL levels that has a maximum rating of 5.5v in the I2C bus spec for standard mode devices that is used on HDMI

the TMDS signals that pass the video are DC coupled differential signals that require a 3.3v+/-5% termination supply voltage Avcc and 50 termination resistors Rt

The HDMI spec says the following:-

Single-ended high level output voltage, VH AVcc ±10mVolts
Single-ended low level output voltage, VL (AVcc – 600mVolts) ≤ VL ≤ (AVcc – 400mVolts)
Single-ended output swing voltage, Vswing 400mVolts ≤ Vswing ≤ 600mVolts
Single-ended standby (off) output voltage, VOFF AVcc ±10mVolts

Since the swing is differential on
the pair, the net signal on the pair has a swing twice that of the single-ended signal, or 2��Vswing.
The differential signal, swings between positive Vswing and negative Vswing.

This translates as a total swing of between 800mV and 1.2V

BTW, these signal must stil be OK on the failed Pioneer devices otherwise they would not work with non HDCP devices . What I am saying is you you cant just measure this stuff with a voltmeter - otherwise you will read just utter crap. You will also read crap if you measure an unconnected output without any load!! So do do this properley you need a sourc connected to a sink and to be able to breakout the signals somehow!!

Here is the HDMI pinout

PIN Signal Assignment PIN Signal Assignment
1 TMDS Data2+
2 TMDS Data2 Shield
3 TMDS Data2–
4 TMDS Data1+
5 TMDS Data1 Shield
6 TMDS Data1–
7 TMDS Data0+
8 TMDS Data0 Shield
9 TMDS Data0–
10 TMDS Clock+
11 TMDS Clock Shield
12 TMDS Clock–
13 CEC
14 Reserved (N.C. on device)
15 SCL 16 SDA
17 DDC/CEC Ground
18 +5V Power
19 Hot Plug Detect


Hot plug detect must not go beyond 5.3v

I have a copy of the 1.2 HDMI spec. PM me if anybody wants a copy.

Interesting stuff.

How did you do the measuring Byron?

Does anyone else think that all this HDMI and HDCP stuff is unnecessarily complicated (due to the HDCP element) and was always likely to introduce problems? It's this bloody obsession with copy protection. Why doesn't the industry get over it. It costs them more money than a few pirates ever would.

[byron_hinson]

I just had a basic logic analyzer, I'm taking it into work tomorrow to use the Gologic one we have there that is far better and about 100x more expensive. I'm not home at the moment to run the tests again and I haven't had the call back from PR yet either.

[contraste]

Originally Posted by glimmerung

Interesting stuff.

How did you do the measuring Byron?

Does anyone else think that all this HDMI and HDCP stuff is unnecessarily complicated (due to the HDCP element) and was always likely to introduce problems? It's this bloody obsession with copy protection. Why doesn't the industry get over it. It costs them more money than a few pirates ever would.

Hear, hear! It's only a matter of time before the hackers break HDCP (they are already articles on the internet on the theory behind cracking it) and then what? Another bloody copy protection protocol to mess things up further?

[scotty38]

Originally Posted by glimmerung

It's this bloody obsession with copy protection. Why doesn't the industry get over it. It costs them more money than a few pirates ever would.

Maybe it does but would you be so against it if it were your property you were trying to protect?

[glimmerung]

Originally Posted by scotty38

Maybe it does but would you be so against it if it were your property you were trying to protect?

That's a catagorical yes.

You have to put it in context. The music industry and the film industry talks about lost revenue, but the reality is a little more complex than what they would have us believe. Do they really think that every time someone pirates a movie that they would otherwise have bought it? Of course not. It's not that black and white. And neither is the attitude of the various industries involved.
The film and music industries are being disingenuous. They know that often piracy acts as a form of marketing: someone gets hold of a pirate copy of an album and when the next album by the same artist comes along, they go out and buy it. What happened with me was that, when I was a teenager, I used to tape records my friends had bought, and I'd lend them my records to tape. I couldn't afford to buy every album I wanted. However, over the years, I have bought the albums that I really liked (sometime, as with Pink Floyd, several times and in various formats). Ok, the technology is different, but the concept isn't. Otherwise, the record and film industries would have already gone out of business.
That latest exemple I've seen concerning piracy is the, apparent, problem which the publishing industry is facing. This is due to people downloading books. Those most commonly downloaded include the Harry Potter books, and this is, again, costing the publishing industry millions...
Well just hold on a darn minute. Haven't the Harry Potter books been selling by the bucketload, and isn't JK Rowling worth a small fortune? Good luck to her, but where the hell is the lost revenue? I would suggest that people who are downloading it, probably also own a hard copy.
Anyway, I could go on about this for hours, so I'll wrap it up by saying this:
Bruce Sterling wrote a book called the Hacker Crackdown. He made it freely available for download, with certain conditions. it also sold very well in the hard copy. The reason I mention this is because I'm writing a book and if it ever became so popular that people wanted to circulate it on the net, then (in answer to your question) I'd be ecstatic (just so long as they didn't claim to be the author).

I got SKY HD setup 22 Sep by SKY engineer who connected using HDMI cable to top box to my PDP435XDE. Previously used HDMI with SONY DVD recorder for 1 year and no problems. After 4 days HDCP error came up, after talking with SKY HD and Pioneer and registering the fault I have tried the Pioneer with HDMI from the Sony DVD recorder and no picture at all, it appears the HDMI board is fried. Pioneer have logged that problem and I have been contacted by Pioneer service centre who are waiting delivery of HDMI board and say they will then come out in install one so HDMI will work with Sony DVD recorder. They also say they will then come back in November and install the fix for the HDMI failure when used with the SKY HD box. Very unhappy about all this having spent a fortune on a supposedly HD Ready TV!!!

[mazdaman2]

Originally Posted by adrianslade

I got SKY HD setup 22 Sep by SKY engineer who connected using HDMI cable to top box to my PDP435XDE. Previously used HDMI with SONY DVD recorder for 1 year and no problems. After 4 days HDCP error came up, after talking with SKY HD and Pioneer and registering the fault I have tried the Pioneer with HDMI from the Sony DVD recorder and no picture at all, it appears the HDMI board is fried. Pioneer have logged that problem and I have been contacted by Pioneer service centre who are waiting delivery of HDMI board and say they will then come out in install one so HDMI will work with Sony DVD recorder. They also say they will then come back in November and install the fix for the HDMI failure when used with the SKY HD box. Very unhappy about all this having spent a fortune on a supposedly HD Ready TV!!!

I own a Pioneer 50 inch plasma and exactly the same thing happened to my TV.I personally blame the whole situation on Murdochs greed.My TV has been working quite normally for the past 3 years and app 10 days ago I went out only to come back to find the HDCP message.The TV has been working with a Sky HD box for app 6 months and never had any problems.It is only since Murdoch disabled the HDMI input with his damned update that the problem started and just for good measure my PS3 will no longer work through the HDMI socket.The idiot reply from SKY was,"to use the component input if you want to watch HD",totally unbelievable.I do not blame Pioneer in any way and am really pleased that it is a Pioneer and not a Philips,etc,as Pioneer could not have been more helpful.They are installing the fix next Friday with absolutely no charge,not bad for a 3 year old TV.Blame Murdoch and his greedy,SKY corporation.

[mazdaman2]

Originally Posted by scotty38

Maybe it does but would you be so against it if it were your property you were trying to protect?

Sorry mate,but I cannot agree with you,as I do not see why someone should constantly be paid for something that they have originally been paid a fortune to do.For example,Nicholas Cage or similar is paid a £1,000,000 to act in a movie,so why should he be paid a royalty every time it is shown for the next 50 years or more,do you pay a royalty to a Plumber every time you turn the tap on after you have paid him to fix it once,or do you pay Rupert Murdoch every time you read the newspaper after you have initially purchased it.Of course you wouldn't,so what is the difference with actors and musicians,etc.It is because they have this absurd view that they should not work for a living like the rest of the population.Just look at the ridiculously high price of DVD's,CD's,etc.My daughter and her boyfriend went to the cinema in Greenwich last week and paid a total of £74 for their seats.They might have been the "Executive Seats",but £74,absolutely disgusting.The days of freeloading should be over and I for one have absolutely no sympathy for these "poor",hard done by,spongers.

[12 promises]

could this be the reason my denon 3806 amp will no longer pass through the hdmi from sky anymore.............i keep getting a "this equipment does not support hdcp etc etc"?
when i connected the hdmi to the back of the amps inputs there was "sparking".

[jackobite]

[QUOTE=byron_hinson;3160580]Well I've run some voltage tests on the Sky HD box today since I started to get a HDCP error for the first time on my philips TV set, I thought this was unusual considering this set hasn't been mentioned much in regards to the current run of HDCP errors showing up on pioneer sets.

The tests I ran on other HDMI hardware show that the Sky HD box is putting out a much higher voltage (at least my box is) when compared to ANY other HDMI based hardware. This to me signals that it can/will/might! cause damage to HDMI connections...well it can to the HDCP bus and would be a good indication on why people are getting problems.

What I ask is that those who can no longer use Sky HD on their sets due to the HDCP error, see if you can run another connection to the HDMI port which doesn't use HDCP...if that displays then Sky HD is frying the HDCP on Tv's due to a high voltage. In which case, I recommend removing Sky HD from HDMI connetions until Sky can get it fixed...my guess would be that it won't be a over the air fix.[/Q.whats HDCP ?.....what is the effect on this on picture??? keep it simple please some of us are thick!!!...........jackobite

[Giblets2]

High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection. There is a big difference if your device supports HDCP - with SkyHD or Blu ray it means you get a picture as opposed to a load of noise. It's a way of the source and destination of the signal handshaking to ensure that the content isn't being illegally copied. The only source I have that doesn't support HDCP is the DVI graphics card on my media PC - and that's only because it's an old one.

Hope that answers your question.

P.S. Everyone realises the original thread is two years old right?

[12 promises]

oops..................but i still dont have an answer to my question

[monkeyuk]

hi i don,t know what to do my samsung Le32R74BD has got the same problem i came home from work and i had the message on sky with no hdcp went through the turning everything off and on then try ps3 and nothing, ive been reading all the other comments and its the first time ive seen it happened to a samsung, is it skys fault or samsung ?

[andy1249]

The tests I ran on other HDMI hardware show that the Sky HD box is putting out a much higher voltage (at least my box is) when compared to ANY other HDMI based hardware.

Jackobite , how did you measure and what levels did you measure ?

I am doubting the high Voltage thing , as mentioned , nearly 2 years ago on this thread , there is no point just sticking a voltmeter on an open connection , you need a proper test setup to see the voltage levels on a hdmi connection.

Ive tested plenty , from sky boxes to the lowliest of dvd players and never come across any device that was out of spec in terms of voltage levels being too high.

The specs were listed here some time ago in an excellent post by spacecadet.

For those with the necessary background to understand whats involved in testing HDMI hardware the general idea is here ,
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/lit...989-4959EN.pdf

A simple voltmeter is useless and will tell you nothing.They cannot accurately measure voltage levels on a high frequency square wave signal.


Regarding the sparking between plug and socket , this will most likely be a result of either different grounding between equipment and ESD or a combination of both.

It is highly recommended that all equipment is turned completely off before making or breaking connections to any piece of equipment. ( Its always bad if you see sparks , no exceptions to this ! )

[AndyST]

I assume if this was an issue it is now fixed? I'm having Sky HD installed in January and I'll wire it up with component instead of HDMI if there's any risk.

[johnscarlet]

I doubt your January Box will have component out , and if it does then it will likely be a refurb

[AndyST]

Originally Posted by johnscarlet

I doubt your January Box will have component out , and if it does then it will likely be a refurb

They don't have component out sockets anymore? Any specific reason for this other than reducing the quality of the hardware and cost cutting?