+ or - RW?

CLH

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I need to buy some discs for my Sony player. Should I be going for the more advanced editing of +RW or the compatability of -RW?
 
Dont know if this is exactly relevant but i played a + dvd in my Pioneer 656 the other day with no problems :). Thats even with the official line being that Pioneer doesnt support it.

Anyone else tried it?
 
Should I be going for the more advanced editing of +RW or the compatability of -RW?
If your talking about the Sony DVD Recorder your getting mixed up. With DVD-RW you have the option of 'Video Mode' which is highly compatible or 'VR Mode' with powerful editting. Whereas with regards to DVD+RW the machine is severly limited as it does not fully support all +RW functions (although admittedly those functions are pretty limited anyway). Why restrict yourself - get DVD-RW.
 
Originally posted by Rasczak
If your talking about the Sony DVD Recorder your getting mixed up. With DVD-RW you have the option of 'Video Mode' which is highly compatible or 'VR Mode' with powerful editting. Whereas with regards to DVD+RW the machine is severly limited as it does not fully support all +RW functions (although admittedly those functions are pretty limited anyway). Why restrict yourself - get DVD-RW.

You're right I got it wrong way round.

I'll use DVD-R for all my major stuff to keep but really +/-RW only for taping TV stuff and I guess occasionally some camcorder things. Why use a DVD-R when -RW is so cheap!
 
Actually +R / -R compatability is about the same. The only edge -R had over +R was media cost. But I just picked up a load of +R discs for under 50p per disc !

+RW is much more compatable than -RW but still only works in a relatively small number of standalone players I have heard figures of anywhere from 20 - 40% .

Personally I have +R / -R / +RW & Ram capabilities.

And honestly I prefer +R myself. But lets not get into this debate again. If you do a few searches you will find a load of posts on this previously.

Everyone has there opinions !
 
The people behind this forum who review everything on the market have,over time given figures for compatibility as follows;+R,95%;+RW;75%;-R,75%;-RW,60%,and of course,dvd ram is as compatible with other players as vhs.
In my experience there seems to be virtually no difference between +R and -R,although +RW is a great format as its the only one you can record on-put in another player-then put it back in the recorder and record some more.
 
The people behind this forum who review everything on the market have,over time given figures for compatibility as follows;+R,95%;+RW;75%;-R,75%;-RW,60%
Can you quote an issue for that (I have an extnesive back issue collection - I'll be happy to scan the article and post it)? It's just I subscribe to What Video & Widescreen Entertainment and Home Cinema Choice and have never, ever seen these statistics. I would also suggest that a database built up of virtually every player available (www.dvdrhelp.com) and the comprehensive guides on the CDR Info (the core industry based site) are extremely reliable. And of course it ties in with the articles published by WVWE such as the integral problems DVD+R had when first issue (i.e. the bad reflective layer).

There are virtually NO sources (not even Philips anymore) that suggest that DVD+R is anywhere near as compatible as DVD-R.
 
As I said above-its over time,not a specific issue.Check out all their mags,including Total Dvd.HCC and WV.If you look at the buyers guide in HCC,the Philips is listed as the UK's best selling dvd recorder,and compatibility is usually mentioned in most of their reviews.
Reviews in all magazines,not just WV publications usually mention the superior compatibility.But think on this-DVD+ is still an unofficial format,and not supported by the dvd forum.So if -R is as compatible as they say,why do Pioneer(the main -R company)support +R on their rewriters,and why do Microsoft support it,and why does the Sony have both.As its unofficial,why would these companies bother to supply the hardware.If -R was as compatible as you say,there would be no need
 
As I said above-its over time,not a specific issue
I thought you meant as much - which is absolute rot. As part of there product tests they test the media but they have never, ever said that DVD+R is more compatible than DVD-R because it isn't. They have never published widescale compatibility tests because, unlike industry supported sites like CDR-Info, they only review half a dozen products per issue.

Reviews in all magazines,not just WV publications usually mention the superior compatibility
Actually I think you'll find many of these articles derived from Philip's press release upon the arrival of DVD+R. Since then of course we have had the reflective layer problem as well as the fact that it's simple not as compatible. Be under no mistake DVD+RW was a decision by a few companies to grab a market share with 'their' product. When +RW was announced there was never going to be a DVD+R - this only came about when DVD+RW didn't even come close to achieving the compatibility levels promised.

So if -R is as compatible as they say,why do Pioneer(the main -R company)support +R on their rewriters,and why do Microsoft support it,and why does the Sony have both.As its unofficial,why would these companies bother to supply the hardware.If -R was as compatible as you say,there would be no need
DVD+R is supported because it costs the companies little to nothing to add support for it and adds sales to people who want a multi-format machine. This is much more a concern in Europe (where +RW has grabbed a foothold) as opposed to Japan or, to a lesser extent, the US. Sony (for instance) only supports +RW/+R in it's settop units in Europe.

Microsoft support for +RW is misunderstood by so many - MS wanted to get a foot in the removeable media market but there participation inside the DVD Alliance is no more relevant than there support of HighMAT. If you check CDR Info you will also find a couple of months back Microsoft announced that ALL DVDR formats will be supported in 'Longhorn' (Next Gen Windows).

If -R was as compatible as you say,there would be no need
But it's not as compatible as I say. It's as compatible as testing has proven! Ultimately DVD-R is an official format and so companies strive to make sure it works - which explains the rough 95% compatibility figure. DVD+R is unofficial and so some companies won't support it - if it works by accident so much the better but it's not a design consideration. You simply won't find any reliable statistics to prove DVD+R is better than DVD-R because there aren't any.
 
Just to back up my last post, re the scale of comatibility test done by CDR-Info, there is this quote from the intro to the test:

CDR-Info, has determined that DVD-R is clearly the most compatible DVD recording format on the market. To assess the compatibility level of DVD Formats we created video content on a DVD writer using DVD-R/RW and +R/RW media. These discs were then played back in other DVD players and DVD-ROM drives – over a 1,000 combinations of drive, media and player were tested.

The content created on a DVD-R/RW writer using a write once DVD-R disc played back in virtually all (96.1 percent) of the DVD players and DVD-ROM drives used in the research. DVD+R discs played back in 87.6 percent of the devices tested.

Since the market for recording to DVD has developed, and different formats have emerged, consumers have been concerned about the compatibility of their DVD recording devices with DVD players and DVD-ROM drives. The findings suggest that for customers who wish to create content on a DVD writer and interchange this with other PC drives and consumer DVD players, DVD-R is the clear format of choice.

It is a rather conclusive statement that DVD-R is the most compatible format.

Full article:
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Art...DVD Media Format Compatibility Tests&Series=0
 
I have some -R discs and playback is patchy.All my +R and +RW play on all players.+RW is the only format that you can record on ,remove,play on another player ,then record some more.-R was only intended to be used by movie companies to send out test discs.Pioneer hijacked it and put out their recorder.If it was so good we would have had another Pioneer recorder,but we haven't.
ALL the budget recorders being offered by supermarkets in the coming months are exclusively +R,and once that kicks in,-R will be a fading memory.Pioneer can't even be bothered to support their own format
 
I have some -R discs and playback is patchy
That's probably more to do with the quality of media your using rather than any general compatibility problem related to DVD-R. If you post your equipment types and disk make and generation then we can probably work through a solution.

.-R was only intended to be used by movie companies to send out test discs.Pioneer hijacked it and put out their recorder.If it was so good we would have had another Pioneer recorder,but we haven't.
Rubbish! DVD-R was intended as the write-once media for DVD just like CD-R. It's not just Pioneer supporting DVD-R - it's supported by EVERYONE except the core member of the DVD Forum - Philips. In addition to Pioneer, JVC, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Samsung all view DVD-R as the primary write-once medium. But if you really want a Pioneer they have 3 new UK models coming out in the UK in the next 6 months - all will support DVD-RW and DVD-R.

ALL the budget recorders being offered by supermarkets in the coming months are exclusively +R,and once that kicks in,-R will be a fading memory
Ahh these much vaunted 'budget' models from media giants like Daewoo (!) and Mico priced at "under £300". Well given the E50 is ALREADY under £300 from most online retailers I'm sure this won't even be that competitive in the UK.

DVD+RW does have a future, in the UK at least, but for the most part that future is going to be satisfying customers who are happy to buy there electrical equipment from ASDA rather than fulfilling a Home Cinema role.

You also have to remember that +RW isn't marketed worldwide so any idea it will become an exclusive format is rubbish. Only in Europe does +RW have a significant market share. Even now, plauged by faulty models, disk faults (and people realising it's a fairly crap format) it's market share is falling in light of the (now cheaper) E50.
 
If its so crap why do Hewlett Packard have a DVD+R ONLY rewriter?
I am only bothered about what happens in the UK.Who cares if 60% of US dvd recorders are DVDRAM-is that going to catch on here?NTSC is used on 100% of US vcr's,makes no difference to us.Laserdisc was popular in the US for 20 years.It did nothing here.
I believe +R and -R will co exist just like vhs and beta ,for quite some time,and it will be a while before one takes over-if ever.Only RAM will disappear from the UK.
Unfortunately,most people are not home cinema buffs and supermarket sales of PLAYERS is what is boosting the format.It doesn't matter how cheap,tacky and poorly built they are,its not sales in Sevenoaks sound and vision and the like thats doing it-its all the Dansais and other budget players that are selling like,and with,hot cakes.And these are the same places that are going to make the dvd recorder the item to buy this Xmas,and they are all +R.As these figures grow -R will become PC based again
 
I am only bothered about what happens in the UK
But from a electronics point of view it is a worldwide market now. What happens worldwide will determine which media will play in future DVD players, which media will be the cheapest, which media will have applications designed for it use etc. These are fast becoming DVD Multi. Perhaps most significantly the specification for BluRay requires it to record to DVD-Multi (-RAM, -RW, -R) - no mention of +RW

Only RAM will disappear from the UK.
:rotfl: You must be aware that there are now more DVD-RAM set-top players in the UK than the DVD+RW? DVD-RAM is now cheaper, it's write-once format is the defacto standard, the products have not been beset with major faults, the machines are made by the larger electrical product producers (i.e. Panasonic, JVC, Toshiba) as opposed to small European ones (Philips) and even smaller Korean ones (Daewoo). Also, you make like to consider that by Christmas there will be 2 DVD-RAM players out from a variety of companies for every DVD+RW machine available.

But putting this aside the reasons DVD-RAM won't disappear are:

1) DVD-RAM is guaranteed to survive due to it's PC business based use that no other DVD format can do, i.e. removable HDD, high-reliability data backup solutions etc.

2) There will always be HC fans who want the best product available. Due to limited buffering, lack of editting facilities, incompatibility of DVD+R, lack of effective VBR, incompatibility with HDD technology (an abosolutely crucial point) then the +RW format will never be the format of choice.

3) It is supported by the second largest electronics manufactor in the world, Panasonic, along with the other giants of JVC and Toshiba - all of whom have achieved a 69% take up rate for DVD-RAM in the PVR market and all who know have their sights on the UK (hence the Toshiba DVDR/HDD, the upcoming JVC and the whole range of players coming from Panasonic).

Unfortunately,most people are not home cinema buffs and supermarket sales of PLAYERS is what is boosting the format
I quite agree - people want the cheapest most compatible format which is DVD-R. As I said the E50 is cheaper than the Philips products and more compatible.

You a new memeber phelings so I won't go into it deeper than this - I'm sure once you've hung around the forum for a bit for realise the error of your ways. I did - my first DVDR purchase was the Philips DVDR1000.
 
Rasczak,

I quite agree - people want the cheapest most compatible format which is DVD-R. As I said the E50 is cheaper than the Philips products and more compatible.

I think you're wrong but almost there. Without doubt, the demand will be for the cheapest, most compatible REWRITABLE media but more importantly the cheapest, half decent machines.

The most compatible media is a draw between +RW and -RW, while at the moment the cheapest is +RW. The prices can change at any time and -RAM will become more compatible with a few leading brands.

The price of the player is much more important as for a pvr you don't necessarily need more than about 10 pieces of media (about £30 compared to £300 for the unit). In that case Panasonic are at the moment winning the price war. The reason that +RW is so widespread is that Phillips stole a march on the prices last year.

People on the whole tend not to be enthusiasts and so are less knowledgable and discerning (hence the likes of sony centres and curries are still in business). They will want something to replace their VCR's and work in a similar way. Most don't even know how to set a timer so don't try to sell them on things like VBR and editing features, that just confuses them. They will also remember Betamax and so compatability WILL be an issue whether it is really relevant or not.

But the number one factor will be highstreet/supermarket price of a unit mitigated of course by availability. Compatability and price of rewritable media as number 2 and Brand name will probably be number 3.

Cheers,
Cal.
 
Without doubt, the demand will be for the cheapest, most compatible REWRITABLE media but more importantly the cheapest, half decent machines
I'm not sure such a distinction will be made between ReWritable and Write Once media. A large number of people only use CD-Rs as opposed to CD-RW even for basic stuff - they are cheap, compatible and throw away. This is becoming increasingly true with DVD-R. The prices of the media are falling - disks will be 50p each soon. Additionally as people realise that a -RW or +RW (or even a RAM disk without a caddy) become increasingly unreliable resulting in dataloss upon subsequent recordings then people may well stick to write-once disks. Supporting this theory is the arrival (in October/November) of two HDD/DVD-R only machines.

And the bottom line is none of the rerewiteable media is guaranteed to work in a DVD player. DVD-RAM is largely incompatible with what has gone before, DVD+RW is being actively blocked by some producers - only DVD-RW stands any real chance of becoming a highly compatible medium. And I would suggest that people will just stick with DVD-R.

Most don't even know how to set a timer so don't try to sell them on things like VBR and editing features, that just confuses them
I quite agree - if you look at Panasonics ads for example you will see precious little mention of FR/VBR only 'Timeslip'. However on these forums I would suggest that is precisely what people want to know as, ultimately, they are probably after the best quality product offset only by price.

My personnel belief is that your 'average bloke in the street' won't go down the DVD Recording route anyway. I think most will stick to HDD based solutions such as Sky+ and simply retain their VCR for sharing needs.
 
I may be new to this forum but have been around for a while.I have also been into home cinema since the late 80's,my first dvd player was inFeb98,maybe before you even knew it existed,and my first and only choice,about a year ago was a Philips dvd recorder.I bought +R for the same reason I chose VHS over Beta in 1980-were you even born then?
Calscot is spot on.Rasczak is way off with his assumption that there are more RAM set top boxes than +R.I assume you are meaning sales as opposed to models available.
RAM is too complicated and clever for Joe Public,so the fact that there now seems to be no -R only machines will push people toward +R.Simple,compatible,just like a vcr with discs.RAM is a great idea with some useful features,but its basic incompatibility with virtually all legacy players will confine it to PC's.
SKY+ is the best idea for watch and wipe and is simple to use compared to independent HDD.I think SKY are going to push for SKY+ to become an affordable option for new customers in the next few years,and it offers quite a few features other HDD cannot supply(2 recordings simultaneously,watch and record 2 different satellite channels,5.1 sound ,one box solution).But people will always want to have the option to keep something,and once prices are low enough(supermarkets again)a dvd recorder will simply replace the vcr-and Tesco's etc are all stocking +R
 
Is compatibility really that much of an issue for the different DVD recording formats?
To me it is only important to have one standard format for pre-recorded DVDs and we already have this. How many people actually swap home recorded DVDs? (I never did with VHS, nor have I ever wanted to keep any recording after I watched it.)

I am assuming that none of the existing formats will win the so called format war. Why can’t all manufactures continue with whatever format they currently choose to support? What I am expecting is that given the proliferation of DVD-RAM/+RW/-RW PC drives that in future more DVD recorders will be multi format.

I do believe that the proliferation of formats is holding the market back in that it confuses and scares off many potential customers. Maybe when BlueRay comes along in a couple of years (at last a DVD recorder with more than 2 hours capacity!) this will become the defacto standard.
 
DVD+RW is being actively blocked by some producers

I would say that this is a dangerous practice by the producers as they will alienate people already to explosed to the format.

I for one will soon buy a pal progressive scan player which I plan to use to playback +RW recordings on my projector. A player which does not play +RW is useless and worthless to me.

These days we want dvd players to play everything going including +R, +RW, -R, -Rw, mp3's, jpegs, video cds, SACD, DVDA etc, so to lack being able to play a popular format will put many people off.

Once you alienate people with that type of petty censorship you also risk devaluing your brand name.

How many people actually swap home recorded DVDs?

I've actually only lent one +RW of the grand prix and it worked with no problem. Ironically someone else lent me the next grand prix on vhs and I had to tell him my vcr was in the bin - along with a "funny looking DVD..." quip. :)

But as I mentioned, I pretty much want to lend +RW's to myself via a second player and +RW gives me far more options for Pal progressive machines.

I'm looking at the Yamaha S540 for £120 and it is designed for +RW, what -RAM player will do Pal prog for that price?

I do realise, though, that if I'd waited a year I could have got the up and coming JVC -RAM recorder which has Pal prog on board.

Cheers,
Cal.
 
I may be new to this forum but have been around for a while.I have also been into home cinema since the late 80's
Then would you like to square this with the quote you made earlier:
Laserdisc was popular in the US for 20 years.It did nothing here.
For many of us who were Home Cinema fans in the UK back in the 80s Laserdisc did quite alot for us actually.

Basically what your saying is you have been a Home Cinema fan for years and years and years but Laserdisc did nothing for you, you preferred VHS over Betamax (instead of having both), you only got into DVD in Feb98 (as opposed to importing equipment and DVDs) and you chose a DVD Recording format on the basis of:
1) The bitrate is not important to you because you don't need Variable Bitrate and Flexible Bitrate (and you are aware DVD+RW has a maximium bitrate of 9.7MBits as opposed to 10.8MBits?).
2) The compatibility of write-once media is not important to you (as DVD+R is significantly less compatible)
3) It doesn't matter if it's an 'official' format or not.

Yeah I can tell you've been a top of the range Home Cinema fan since the 80s :D

my first dvd player was inFeb98,maybe before you even knew it existed
I don't like to disappoint but I had a collection of around 50 DVDs back in January 1998. I also can claim the honour of being the first DVD buying customer in HMV Southampton - picking up a copy of Mars Attacks as the assistant was just filling up the tiny shelf space cleared for them. He almost died of shock when someone actually brought one of the disks...

Rasczak is way off with his assumption that there are more RAM set top boxes than +R.I assume you are meaning sales as opposed to models available.
Yes I mean sales. This is primarily because the E50 is now the cheapest DVD Recorder but has been helped no end by the amount of people who have returned faulty Philips machines. Andby the end of the year there will be more DVD-RAM recorders available than +RW ones.

RAM is too complicated and clever for Joe Public,so the fact that there now seems to be no -R only machines will push people toward +R.
RAM is simple to use - I don't think anyone will seriously struggle to get it to work at a basic level. Of course the +RW machines don't have anything above a basic level. Your point about there being "no DVD-R only ones" doesn't make any sense - the E50 is readily available and cheaper than anything in the +RW camp. :confused:

I am assuming that none of the existing formats will win the so called format war
That's exactly correct. As has been discussed here and mooted elsewhere there will be no 'winner' of the format war for:

1) All three formats have PC based uses. DVD-RAM has specialist use as a high integrity backup and offers high security of data (largely business uses). DVD-RW and DVD+RW offer home use.

2) All DVD Recorders can play pre-recorded disks which was what really killed off Betamax. So ultimately the compatibility of recorded media is not an issue.

And in the case of DVD-RAM/-RW/-R then of course the takeup has been so much greater than +RW. In the PVR market DVD-RAM dominates with 69%. In the PC market DVD-RW dominates with 50.5% (plus 15% for DVD-RAM due to the 'merger' into the DVD Multi format). DVD+RW dominates nowhere. There is also the fact the DVD-RAM/-RW/-R are now incorporated into the next generation Recording format - BluRay.

So ultimately all three formats will be around until superceeded which means you should buy a product that suits you - which if your a Home Cinema fan is NOT a DVD+RW machine.
 
I'm not sure such a distinction will be made between ReWritable and Write Once media. A large number of people only use CD-Rs as opposed to CD-RW even for basic stuff - they are cheap, compatible and throw away.

I see your point but I'm not sure they are a large percentage of the population. I'll bet there are many more people used to tape or minidisc that have a problem with "one shot" recording and also like to recycle when they bore of something or haven't any blanks left.

The fact that VHS is rerecordable is a big factor although that DVD has had massive takeup despite this may change peoples minds.

I must admit I have a problem with write once myself and only have RW discs and also tend to use minidiscs instead of CD-R's except for the mp3 player in the car.

I agree that if HD PVR's like TIVO are introduced again this time with a free EPG, they may take off and rule the home recording roost.

Sky+ at £10 per month on top of a subscription will always seen too expensive for most, especially with freeview making inroads.

Cheers,
Cal.
 
I'm looking at the Yamaha S540 for £120 and it is designed for +RW, what -RAM player will do Pal prog for that price?
Well thats true - you would have to wait for the new JVC. But if you recorded on DVD-Rs you could use virtually any PAL Progressive machine to play it and you'd benefit from the features that would actually make the disk a better quality product - i.e. higher bitrate, variable bitrate, flexible record and guaranteed compatibility.

I see your point but I'm not sure they are a large percentage of the population
I can assure you they are. Just keep an eye on CR Info news - write-once DVDs are where the companies are making there money. Rewriteable DVDs are selling only 1 for every 10 Recordable ones.

I agree that if HD PVR's like TIVO are introduced again this time with a free EPG, they may take off and rule the home recording roost
They will - your have a variety of HDD units coming from Thompson. As well as HDD/DVDR combos from Pioneer and Panasonic (which are rumoured to be getting EPGs) and some HDD/DVD-R only ones. There is also Sky+. These will become Joe Publics VCR.
 

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