[Phil Hinton]

AVForums will be exhibiting for a fifth year at the Bristol Sound and Vision show 2009 - taking place this weekend 20-22nd February at the Marriott Hotel (city centre).

On our stand, it’s a fond wave goodbye to one of the best displays on the planet. We will have two Pioneer KURO LX-5090 plasmas and will be showing upscaled DVD on one and Blu-ray on the other. But, will you be able to tell which is which?

It will be a blind test between a Pioneer BD player and a Toshiba XD-E500 on the fully ISF calibrated KURO’s (the players will be calibrated in the chain). It should provide an interesting look at how much of a jump there is between the technologies using a £100 upscaler, to see how good DVD can be, against what should be the next mass market standard. You can find our stand at the Business Centre on the Terrace/Conservatory floor. (Next to the bar area).

As well as our stand, the AVForums.tv team will be out on the show floor capturing the atmosphere and new products for those who cannot make the journey down. The videos will be published as soon as possible, so keep an eye on the videos page!

If you are attending the show, come and say hello and see our demo. On the stand for the entire show will be Lee, Louis, Sally, David Mackenzie and myself. Various forum moderators will also be attending over the course of the show.

If you can’t make it along, we will do our best to bring you all the news, gossip and of course the latest technology on www.avforums.tv

Update
Photos of the AVForums stand.

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The AVForums team
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left to right
Sally, David, Louis, Lee, Phil

[SeanT]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

(Next to the bar area).

*hic*

[thompma]

Looking forward to this, at last, a proper comparison!
See you Sunday,

[KobeoneHD]

Cool will see you guys there on sunday!!

KobeoneHD

[drunken_prozac]

I must have passed you guys today, I'm the 'in-house' technician and have nothing to do over the next couple of days!

I did see the Pioneer stand upstairs and thought to myself "I thought kuro was going?" I will pop up tomorrow and take a look, I will be in a black puffa jacket with 'sounds commercial' written in yellow on it with black comabts on.

I always enjoy taking a wander round all the rooms, shame this is my last one as I leave work on the 6th march

Darren

[rafalution08]

Be there tomorrow!

Can't wait

[kevshed]

I'll be there on Saturday - and will look forward to seeing the demo.... hmm, hope i can tell !

[Apone]

So which was better?

[Welsh Whirlwind]

Well done on a very interesting and educational stand Phil

The callabration hours you put in certainly paid off with a fantastic demo sure to spark lively debate! I guessed correctly but the difference was alot smaller than I would have expected. DVD is far from dead...

Once again, well done to all involved.

[gianni447]

I really am in shock. I was expecting an easy task of spotting the difference between an upscaled image and that of a genuine 1080p Blu Ray image.
From a distance of approx 4 metres and after careful viewing I was able to see small improvements in detail on one image but only after apporximately 5 minutes of viewing. The difference only really became apparent, and by no means obvious, during landscape shots.

I was expecting this to be an easy task, so how wrong was I.

This was the most interesting demostration at the show and will have certainly proved to lot of people wrong, myself included, that believed Blu ray could spell the end for DVD.

I humbly admit I was wrong. . . .
Im off now to go and buy some DVD's and maybe invest in a professional callibration too!

[Stuart Wright]

The key to getting an exceptional image from DVD is a calibrated decent display and a good transfer. We are using i-Robot which has a particularly good transfer. Other discs do not fair as well and you would be able to see the differences between DVD and Blu-ray very easily.
The calibration of the TV is vital because the output of the Toshiba DVD player is way off standard and only after specifically calibrating the TV to it (it took Phil 5 hours) could we get a good picture.
So hopefully we demonstrate a number of things on our stand:

• DVD can look fabulous even from a budget player, but the quality of the DVD transfer makes a big difference
• Blu-ray we know is better than SD, but will look sublime through a good display like a Kuro
• Calibrating a display makes a huge difference

and the lesson learned is, I think, that given you have invested in a good display and had it calibrated, then a Blu-ray double-dip is not something you should automatically do if the quality of the transfer of the DVD already in your collection is good. Oh and having as good a quality upscaling DVD player will help.

[Graham N]

This is an ideal opportunity for visitors to the show to not only compare DVD to Blu Ray but also see the difference calibration makes. Here in Cornwall I would have to travel a long way to see either of these in store.

Reading gianni447's post got me thinking though. He states that he had difficulty seeing the difference between them at approx 4 metres. Well a lot of us have projectors and I am viewing my picture at just over double the size diagonally (Four times the area?). This is from a distance of about 3.5 metres, so slightly closer.

It would be nice to see the same tests conducted with projectors on large screens, perhaps both aiming at one screen with opposite halves of their picture masked off. I would expect the difference to be more easily noticeable and would be of even greater interest to PJ owners. That's next years challenge for Stuart and Phil sorted


Cheers,

Graham

[IWC Dopplel]

Nice to see you guys again. Liked the HD-SD comparison and the calibrated non calibrated comparison as well.

[mcolman]

Thanks for the great comparison - to echo an earlier comment, it was probably the most useful of the demos I saw today (the only other noteworthy one for me was the What Hi-Fi one). Aside from the comparison itself, as a Kuro owner, it's nice to see what my TV would deliver post-calibration!

One thing that wasn't mentioned during the demo, or the comments that I've seen here, but I thought was quite significant, was the geometry difference. After all, the colour can be adjusted in numerous ways to suit, but I thought the DVD images appeared wider than the equivalent on the blu-ray... this was particularly apparent with close-up - medium distance face shots... Anyone else notice that? Anyway, nice to see a genuinely interesting stand at the show - thank you.

[namuk]

That poster first thought was Pay for veiw.. i even turned on my telly at 3am..

dam fell asleep again

Wish i was there to judge..

i no this if you have a big release film , say fantastic four etc and upscale the film this will work a treat.. but not with a older bad transfer films . unless you get this film on hd..were they put this though the process.. you can see the difference there.. thats why i bought a few old release films on hd.

[Ian J]

Individual show reviews are being posted up here if anyone wishes to contribute their thoughts

[Simon Crust]

Originally Posted by mcolman

One thing that wasn't mentioned during the demo, or the comments that I've seen here, but I thought was quite significant, was the geometry difference. After all, the colour can be adjusted in numerous ways to suit, but I thought the DVD images appeared wider than the equivalent on the blu-ray... this was particularly apparent with close-up - medium distance face shots... Anyone else notice that? Anyway, nice to see a genuinely interesting stand at the show - thank you.

The Kuro's were running in Dot by Dot mode, this means they show bit by bit what is on the disc, in the case of Blu-ray it's identical mapping, in the case of DVD you see the over-scan portion that is normally truncated by other TVs.

Thanks for the feedback

Simon

[Jez1]

I knew I meant to do something this weekend and couldn't remember what

I'll try and remember to come along next year.

[Louis Mazzini]

Originally Posted by gianni447

I really am in shock. I was expecting an easy task of spotting the difference between an upscaled image and that of a genuine 1080p Blu Ray image.
From a distance of approx 4 metres and after careful viewing I was able to see small improvements in detail on one image but only after apporximately 5 minutes of viewing. The difference only really became apparent, and by no means obvious, during landscape shots.

I was expecting this to be an easy task, so how wrong was I.

This was the most interesting demostration at the show and will have certainly proved to lot of people wrong, myself included, that believed Blu ray could spell the end for DVD.

I humbly admit I was wrong. . . .
Im off now to go and buy some DVD's and maybe invest in a professional callibration too!

Please tell me this was with the I Robot clip..? Not that I saw that demo, but with the PotC comparison the diffence was more than just a bit obvious: It really was glaring, and I'm definitely no expert. (Literally within a second or two of sitting down the superiority of the screen on the right hand side was very clear to see.)

Certainly, the guys had done a great job calibrating the set-up, but as I mentioned to Phil (possibly to his irritation - sorry about that!) I thought the demo did a much better job of showing how superior blu-ray is rather than showing how good DVD can look. (In fact, when Phil pointed out that the general point is that, you don't want to re-buy all your DVDs do you, I was more sure of my answer - stupid though it maybe - than ever before: "Yeah, I do!")

Anyway, the AV Forums stand was a great idea and a very worthwhile demo, so thanks to everyone on the stand for making us welcome and taking the time to chat about what they were doing, especially to David whose views and insight on the quality of DVD was really interesting.

[coldmachine]

Originally Posted by gianni447

I really am in shock. I was expecting an easy task of spotting the difference between an upscaled image and that of a genuine 1080p Blu Ray image.
From a distance of approx 4 metres and after careful viewing I was able to see small improvements in detail on one image but only after apporximately 5 minutes of viewing. The difference only really became apparent, and by no means obvious, during landscape shots.

I was expecting this to be an easy task, so how wrong was I.

This was the most interesting demostration at the show and will have certainly proved to lot of people wrong, myself included, that believed Blu ray could spell the end for DVD.

I humbly admit I was wrong. . . .
Im off now to go and buy some DVD's and maybe invest in a professional callibration too!

Im sure this was an interesting and worthwhile test for many people, but I can see it potentially leading to some misunderstanding.

If the tests were at a correct viewing distance that allowed full resolution of native 1080p material, the difference would be instantly noticeable.

If you are further than 1.5 screen widths the test is invalid as a direct qualitative comparison between upscaled DVD and Blu-Ray.

Depending on the screen size, you may even have been outside, or close to, the distance required just to begin to see 720p benefit (not to obtain max 720 benefit), let alone the beginning of 1080p detail. To see the minimum benefit of 720p requires a screen of around 46". To fully appreciate 720 resolution at 4m needs around a 70" screen.

To fully resolve 1080p, and thus gain most benefit from native content, at a distance of 4m (13ft) each screen would need to have been around 8ft wide.

To fully resolve 1080p detail on an average screen of 42", the viewing distance would be close to 5ft.

What this demo does illustrate, is that for most people, at normal living room viewing distances, with small screens (ie under 8ft) full 1080p detail cannot be resolved.

If the demo were conducted at a greater viewing distance, the difference between Blu-Ray and an old VHS would also be undetectable.

Many of us us projection systems and sit within the 1.5 SW (2 x SH) distance. The difference is huge, and instantly obvious.



Hope this helps.

PS. Phil and posse, kudos on the continued high standard of videos. I look forward to seeing the remainder of the show reports.

[thompma]

Enjoyed the show and the fact that the Avforums have had the balls to actually show the 2 formats properly side by side.
Unfortunately when i went in it was a talking shop with the camera man messing about with the bluray player and hence had it uncovered
BUT, having sat down for a good period of time, there was only a slight difference in quality between the 2, now this is down to the calibration process and the time taken by the guys in getting this demo setup.
The only comment i would make about the dem was that the 2 films were not sync'd together, so made it interesting to judge between the 2.

[coldmachine]

Originally Posted by thompma

there was only a slight difference in quality between the 2, now this is down to the calibration process and the time taken by the guys in getting this demo setup.

Thats not the case, it is not down to the calibration process at all. See the post above. This is exactly why I said the demo may be very misleading for some people

The viewing distance of 4m, with such small screens, is inappropriate to fully illustrate 1080p detail. If the demo were carried out at a greater distance there would be no difference between VHS and Blu-ray

The subject of viewing distance, and visual acuity, is very well understood in FP circles, but seems to get lost when dealing with TVs.

The chart below provides the seating distances for 1080p and 720p viewing. You can easily see that for a distance of 13ft, a screen of 100" diagonal is whats needed to fully resolve a 1080p image

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/09...o-screen-size/

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

You may find that if the display is capable of it and has been calibrated properly, then colour differences would be visible further away than the distance required for detail differences between these sources. Also, dependant on the quality of de-interlacing and scaling you may well find that de-interlacing errors may be apparent beyond the viewing threshold difference of 1080p resolution.

[coldmachine]

Originally Posted by Gordon @ Convergent AV

You may find that if the display is capable of it and has been calibrated properly, then colour differences would be visible further away than the distance required for detail differences between these sources. Also, dependant on the quality of de-interlacing and scaling you may well find that de-interlacing errors may be apparent beyond the viewing threshold difference of 1080p resolution.

Color differences, if they are significant, will be visible, but that's not the issue I was making, especially if both units are fully calibrated.

Scaling errors, if visible, would only further increase the qualitative difference between upscaled SD and BD. Not that its a major issue anyway.

The fact remains that the viewing distances involved.if they were the 4m quoted, were way outside the minimum for even 720 to be fully appreciated, let alone BD on a 1080p native panel.

The point I was making is that to compare upscaled and native 1080p, the viewing distances must meet the standard criteria.

What the demo, and seating distance information, very clearly show, is that most living room viewers are not obtaining full benefit from 1080 resolution.

The only reason I posted was that I thought people may arrive at the wrong conclusion. That has been shown to be the case.

Hope this helps.

[Phil Hinton]

Thanks to everyone for the comments and feedback. I'm glad that those who saw what we were doing took an interest in calibration. The main point of the demo was to set up the equipment you have correctly before going off and buying yet another box of electronics. The gasps of disapproval once viewers were used to the calibrated image and switching to standard mode said everything.

In terms of viewing distances, in our room space was very tight and viewers were sitting a maximum of 9 feet from the panels, most standing closer. From the doorway, it was only about 11ft from the screens. It was possible to see the detail produced by the BD playing, and most enthusiasts got it right, almost straight away. But the point of this part of the demo was to get people talking about how good the DVD looked when done right and on a properly calibrated screen. This then led our discussion on to how important good calibration is in getting the best from your sources when calibrated in the chain.

It was an educational demo, and I feel that at least 80% of those who saw it will now be seriously looking at getting their systems set up correctly and that has to be a good thing. I suspect our regular professional calibrators will benefit from what we were showing and again that can only be a good thing if people are now seriously looking at their system performance with the equipment they have rather than just going out and buying more kit.

Again thanks for all the kind comments and we will certainly be looking at doing more of this type of demo in the future. It's important to me and the forums team that as many people as possible get to at least experience an accurate image so they have a reference of what is possible with their systems.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Hi MrColdmachine.... I am not disagreeing with you. I was pointing out that plenty of folk seem to get hooked up on visual acuity relative to distance as the be all and end all of determining what res your display should be and whether you can tell SD from HD. There are other factors involved. I agree though that the further the distance between you and the display the harder it is to make the determination.

[coldmachine]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Thanks to everyone for the comments and feedback. I'm glad that those who saw what we were doing took an interest in calibration. The main point of the demo was to set up the equipment you have correctly before going off and buying yet another box of electronics. The gasps of disapproval once viewers were used to the calibrated image and switching to standard mode said everything.

In terms of viewing distances, in our room space was very tight and viewers were sitting a maximum of 9 feet from the panels, most standing closer. From the doorway, it was only about 11ft from the screens. It was possible to see the detail produced by the BD playing, and most enthusiasts got it right, almost straight away. But the point of this part of the demo was to get people talking about how good the DVD looked when done right and on a properly calibrated screen. This then led our discussion on to how important good calibration is in getting the best from your sources when calibrated in the chain.

It was an educational demo, and I feel that at least 80% of those who saw it will now be seriously looking at getting their systems set up correctly and that has to be a good thing. I suspect our regular professional calibrators will benefit from what we were showing and again that can only be a good thing if people are now seriously looking at their system performance with the equipment they have rather than just going out and buying more kit.

Again thanks for all the kind comments and we will certainly be looking at doing more of this type of demo in the future. It's important to me and the forums team that as many people as possible get to at least experience an accurate image so they have a reference of what is possible with their systems.

Phil, thanks for the info on the seating distance.

Just to clarify, 1080p detail on a 50" screen is only fully apparent at 6.5 ft, assuming normal visual acuity.

For that reason, the vast majority of TV viewers do not see the full benefit of 1080 resolution.

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by coldmachine

Phil, thanks for the info on the seating distance.

Just to clarify, 1080p detail on a 50" screen is only fully apparent at 6.5 ft, assuming normal visual acuity.

For that reason, the vast majority of TV viewers will not see the full benefit of 1080 resolution.

Yeah, not arguing with your point, however in the circumstances of the show and equipment used, it was not really an important point for the dem, which as explained above was to create conversation, and hopefully more interest in ISF and correct set up. One of my main points in my talk was about resolution so hopefully I covered that aspect for those who visited. Thanks for your comments...

[coldmachine]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Yeah, not arguing with your point, however in the circumstances of the show and equipment used, it was not really an important point for the dem, which as explained above was to create conversation, and hopefully more interest in ISF and correct set up. One of my main points in my talk was about resolution so hopefully I covered that aspect for those who visited. Thanks for your comments...

Thanks.

The only reason I posted in the first place was that there seemed to be some misunderstanding creeping in regarding what differences would and could actually be seen

I think you are to be commended on getting this info out there. There seems to be very little appreciation, in some areas, for this, and people like yourself and Neil are doing sterling work in getting various topics covered and information disseminated.

I think the FP guys have a bit of a head start here, as its pretty central to FP.

[thompma]

Originally Posted by coldmachine

Thats not the case, it is not down to the calibration process at all. See the post above. This is exactly why I said the demo may be very misleading for some people

I'd have to disagree and the purpose of the dem was to do with the calibration process.