[HeadBanger]

For greyscale you are not adjusting the primary colours (but it does affect them) you are simply adjusting the contrast and brightness on each colour to achieve as near perfect WB as possible. The colours themselves are adjusted once WB is correct. Like you, I could not adjust primary and secondary colours on my Panasonic either. Of course if you could adjust primary & secondary colours these would likely affect your greyscale and you'd need to keep redoing everything until everything balanced!

The values of RGB will average 100% regardless of your drive and bias settings. So at the moment you may have R=95%, G=110% and B=95% which average 100%. If you up R&B you will see your G % drop and vice versa. The key is to get RGBs at all IRE's as close to 100% as possible.

[klnc]

Ok, so started from scratch, again... (at least it's good practice at seeing how all the different adjustments interrelate!)

Using Panasonic's default settings (with pre-calibration changes to Cinema picture mode, 2.2 gamma and warm WB), I then need up the Brightness slightly (+3), as before.

Contrast still puzzles me slightly - I've been essentially using contrast to check output is ok for cinema viewing (post calibration it's 33.7, which is spot on), but have made no adjustments to the default contrast setting (25/30). I've been checking the AVSHD709 contrast test patterns, and yet the patterns shown are pretty insensitive to changes in contrast, although output clearly will change. There is no clipping or discolouration at the default setting, and boxes 230-237 on the test pattern are flashing (above 238 through to 254 are not visible). Reverting back to the greyscale for dummies guide, it states "set contrast to give reasonable performance and light output for the room setup, light control and type of display you are using". With the Picture Mode as Cinema, contrast at default just seems right. Sure if I changed to Standard, I'd have to edge it down significantly.

Leaving contrast to one side, then adjusted greyscale (can't get a meaningful reading at 0IRE, but 10IRE is fine, so not worried about that) - screenprint below - all metrics look very good.

No change needed to Brightness and Output a very respectable 33.7.

As I said earlier, no CMS in the PF12, but edging the colour down by 4 notches gave these outputs (attached) - better balanced primaries. Hue was unchanged. Will address the obvious oversaturation of the green when I can plug in my lumagen.

Grateful for any final thoughts!

[HeadBanger]

That looks very good!

Being ultra critical your green gain still looks fractionally too high which is highlighted by the greyscale summary top right. I reckon one click down on the G gain (or R&B gain one click up each) might well address this. I think the calibrators state that if you have to end up with one gain slightly too high make it blue (green being the least preferred of the three).

My green primary ended up about where yours is - annoying isn't it!?

[klnc]

Just done again, but this time not from scratch, more just to see if the i2 was delivering consistent results (minor differences at the lower end), otherwise with another tick on r&b (as you suggested) got virtually flat 100%.

For the timebeing, going to call it quits now! Will undoubtedly revisit again when my scaler arrives to see what can be done with the colour.

Thanks again for your advice - much appreciated!

[Vito Scaletta]

After getting great results with my grey-scale calibration following the guide I've been trying to adjust my primary and secondary colours.

In the guide it says to adjust the primary colour "lightness" to get the correct "Y" reading.

For example: "Adjust the CMS 'Lightness' control on your display for Green until the Y reading is 71% of the 100% white window reading measured earlier. For example, if the Y value earlier was 39.012 as seen above, then 71% would be 39.012 x 0.71 = 27.699."

Well rather than "lightness" I can only control the saturation of each colour, and for each colour I can adjust the red, green and blue elements of that primary colour or secondary colour.

I tried adjusting the saturation to get the right "Y" reading which I could do but when retesting the graph was further off after than it was before, so for now I've just set colour space back to "Auto" which actually gives fairly accurate primaries.

Can someone help me understand how the Samsung "saturation" controls relate to the "lightness" controls I am being instructed to adjust in the guide.

I have borrowed the i1 from someone and I'm running out of time to find an answer. So any help will be appreciated.

[MeanDorris]

Originally Posted by Vito Scaletta

After getting great results with my grey-scale calibration following the guide I've been trying to adjust my primary and secondary colours.

In the guide it says to adjust the primary colour "lightness" to get the correct "Y" reading.

For example: "Adjust the CMS 'Lightness' control on your display for Green until the Y reading is 71% of the 100% white window reading measured earlier. For example, if the Y value earlier was 39.012 as seen above, then 71% would be 39.012 x 0.71 = 27.699."

Well rather than "lightness" I can only control the saturation of each colour, and for each colour I can adjust the red, green and blue elements of that primary colour or secondary colour.

I tried adjusting the saturation to get the right "Y" reading which I could do but when retesting the graph was further off after than it was before, so for now I've just set colour space back to "Auto" which actually gives fairly accurate primaries.

Can someone help me understand how the Samsung "saturation" controls relate to the "lightness" controls I am being instructed to adjust in the guide.

I have borrowed the i1 from someone and I'm running out of time to find an answer. So any help will be appreciated.

Lightness and saturation need separate controls to set both properly (and ideally a set of hue controls for colour also). I'm not familiar with your display but the main colour control should effect the lightness/Y value mostly (and may be the saturation a little but probably less so) so you should use the main colour control to get the best balance of lightness that you can (i.e. The smallest error across all the primaries and secondaries, you may to try to minimse red errors if possible) and then use the saturation controls afterwards to get them more accurate (you should check the lightness again afterwards as adjusting the saturations will probably effect the lightness also).

I think earlier in the guide it explains to set the colour control basd on getting the right % of red compared to white (have you done this?) but checking the other colours and getting a better balance would be preferable to a spot on red with larger errors in others.

Hope that helps.

[RICKYJ]

I also posted some info on the cie axis in this post: Panasonic GT30 Calibration & Settings Thread. , which may help you understand

[Greyscale]

Originally Posted by Vito Scaletta

After getting great results with my grey-scale calibration following the guide I've been trying to adjust my primary and secondary colours.

In the guide it says to adjust the primary colour "lightness" to get the correct "Y" reading.

For example: "Adjust the CMS 'Lightness' control on your display for Green until the Y reading is 71% of the 100% white window reading measured earlier. For example, if the Y value earlier was 39.012 as seen above, then 71% would be 39.012 x 0.71 = 27.699."

Well rather than "lightness" I can only control the saturation of each colour, and for each colour I can adjust the red, green and blue elements of that primary colour or secondary colour.

I tried adjusting the saturation to get the right "Y" reading which I could do but when retesting the graph was further off after than it was before, so for now I've just set colour space back to "Auto" which actually gives fairly accurate primaries.

Can someone help me understand how the Samsung "saturation" controls relate to the "lightness" controls I am being instructed to adjust in the guide.

I have borrowed the i1 from someone and I'm running out of time to find an answer. So any help will be appreciated.

The Samsung CMS works well, if in a slightly unconventional fashion.

Taking green as an example:
Use the red and blue sliders independently to adjust the colour's hue around the gamut.
Use the same red and blue sliders in unison to decrease the colour's saturation.
The green slider (in this case) will alter the colour's brightness.

You will need an additional application to calculate delta error if your software can't do this, as perfect CIE chart results aren't always ideal in the real world.

[Vito Scaletta]

Originally Posted by MeanDorris @ AV Aficionado

I think earlier in the guide it explains to set the colour control basd on getting the right % of red compared to white (have you done this?) but checking the other colours and getting a better balance would be preferable to a spot on red with larger errors in others.

Hope that helps.

Yes I set the red Y level and got it perfect but green and blue were out.

Originally Posted by RICKYJ

I also posted some info on the cie axis in this post: Panasonic GT30 Calibration & Settings Thread. , which may help you understand

Thanks, I've had a read through this and I think I'll have to read through a few more times to fully understand. So much still to learn!

Originally Posted by Greyscale

The Samsung CMS works well, if in a slightly unconventional fashion.

Taking green as an example:
Use the red and blue sliders independently to adjust the colour's hue around the gamut.
Use the same red and blue sliders in unison to decrease the colour's saturation.
The green slider (in this case) will alter the colour's brightness.

You will need an additional application to calculate delta error if your software can't do this, as perfect CIE chart results aren't always ideal in the real world.

Glad someone is familiar with the Samsung CMS, I was totally baffled by it. So when you say "brightness" is this the same as "lightness" that the guide talks about?

[Greyscale]

Yes, colour lightness or brightness - same deal.

[NewPlasma]

I tried to calibrate my Samsung Plasma TV following the tutorial. Results are very good in general. I have a question wrt how to change the secondary colours in CMS calibration.

Here are the colour space settings I ended up with,

Colour Space: Custom
Red R:56 G:64 B:58
Green R:70 G:57 B:63
Blue R:70 G:55 B:58
Yellow R:40 G:50 B:0
Cyan R:0 G:50 B:55
Magenta R:45 G:0 B:45

Attached are the Results and data. The secondary colours are off the reference points. Take Yellow as example, the position is just above the reference point, and I need to move it down in y. When I change R and G in unison, the intensity changes but not the position. When I change R and G by different amounts, the position moves largely horizontally in x but hardly moves vertically in y. Changing B makes no difference to position and intensity. Could anybody please help point out how to move the yellow down to the reference point? Cheers.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

When you turn down red and green equally you are adjusting BIG Y....not little Y. You are changing the luminance of the secondary colour. Altering R or G independantly of each other will affect the HUE of yellow (this will alter both x and y. Adding BLUE will desaturate Yellow moving it (theoretically) in a straight line towards Blue through your current WHITE point (also altering x and y)

Also, be aware that the object of CMS calibration is NOT to make the cie chart you are posting look perfect. That is a secondary consideration. You want to reduce the delta errors as low as you can. You may find that for the primary colours that means the CIE chart doesn't look as good....(but with the samsung cms i'd expect you to get both looking good). If you get the delta errors perfect then the chart will also happen to look perfect....

[NewPlasma]

Originally Posted by Gordon @ Convergent AV

When you turn down red and green equally you are adjusting BIG Y....not little Y. You are changing the luminance of the secondary colour. Altering R or G independantly of each other will affect the HUE of yellow (this will alter both x and y. Adding BLUE will desaturate Yellow moving it (theoretically) in a straight line towards Blue through your current WHITE point (also altering x and y)

Also, be aware that the object of CMS calibration is NOT to make the cie chart you are posting look perfect. That is a secondary consideration. You want to reduce the delta errors as low as you can. You may find that for the primary colours that means the CIE chart doesn't look as good....(but with the samsung cms i'd expect you to get both looking good). If you get the delta errors perfect then the chart will also happen to look perfect....

Thanks a lot for your help, sir.

As you suggested, in theory, adding BLUE will desaturate Yellow moving it in a straight line towards Blue through the current WHITE point (also altering x and y). But I changed BLUE from 0 to 100, there is hardly any change in x, y and Y. This is where got me confused. What could be the reason? Is this common to Samsung CMS?

Also when I turn down/up red and green equally, the luminance changes but the delta error can hardly goes below 3. Is this normal?

Very much appreciated.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

There are many types of formula for measuring delta error. It sounds like whatever software you are using is not taking in to account luminance.... Your hardware may also not be accurate, hence the not expected results....

[NewPlasma]

Originally Posted by Gordon @ Convergent AV

There are many types of formula for measuring delta error. It sounds like whatever software you are using is not taking in to account luminance.... Your hardware may also not be accurate, hence the not expected results....

Thanks again.

On the software, I used the HCFR Colorimeter. I can edit the data manually, but unless the x, y are spot on, changing Y alone can change the delta error but cannot make it zero.

I used a Minolta CL-200 meter, I found its sensitivity reasonable. Also when I changed the Blue from 0 to 100, I could not see any change in the colour of the pattern by my eyes. That kinda confirmed the meter reading.

Still confused......

[Piers]

Gordon has given you good advice.

You have a good meter but HCFR isn't what you want.

More powerful software will make the calibration process a whole lot easier.

Piers

[NewPlasma]

Originally Posted by Piers

Gordon has given you good advice.

You have a good meter but HCFR isn't what you want.

More powerful software will make the calibration process a whole lot easier.

Piers

Many thanks, Piers and Gordon. Will try Calman.

One thing still puzzles me. though. On my Samsung TV, altering Blue does not desaturate/saturate Yellow, i.e, does not moving it along the straight line towards/away Blue through the current WHITE point. For example, y is around 0.515. By altering blue, y can never be equal to or smaller than the reference value 0.505 . Same to Cyan and Magenta. This is confirmed by meter reading and by me eyes, should have nothing to do with the software. Is this a Samsung specific issue? or my set is faulty?

[stevie79]

I had quick scan through the guide and its made me want to try it but I'm not sure if it's worth doing on my projector as it doesn't seem to have all the adjustment controls I need, oh and I don't have a clue what I'm talking a out :-).

Anyway my projector is only 720p its an acer h5360bd hooked up to ps3. The settings I have are as follows.

Brightness
Contrast
Sharpness
Tint
R slider bar
G slider bar
B slider bar
Saturation


That's it! There's no indication of high end or low end rgb. Will it be possible to get a good Calibration with these settings.

[HeadBanger]

It looks like you will but may not be able to get spot on results. The RHB slider may be the high end RGB controls (contrast) or somehow combine the high and low RGB or be the colour saturation etc. You'll need to have a play whilst measuring with a colorimeter to work out what they do. Whatever they adjust I think you'll be surprised how much better it'll look even if all the measurements aren't perfect (and no one achieves perfection it's all about making the best compromises).

[stevie79]

Thanks for reply, I've had a read and still not sure what to go for that would suit my needs, can you recommended one at 100-150 gbp? Preferably the 100gbp :-) as I'm not going to get the same results as you guys would. Sorry if I'm talking rubbish I'm a totall noob to this.

[KRW]

I just wanted to add my thanks here. Was happy with the picutre from my TW200 but after a go at the greyscale earlier in the week, following the guide here, its ten times better. Has real 'pop' now and looks better than the cinema.

An excellent guide, well worth following and reading. If you're thinking about having a go, definitely do it. Well worth it.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Originally Posted by stevie79

I had quick scan through the guide and its made me want to try it but I'm not sure if it's worth doing on my projector as it doesn't seem to have all the adjustment controls I need, oh and I don't have a clue what I'm talking a out :-).

Anyway my projector is only 720p its an acer h5360bd hooked up to ps3. The settings I have are as follows.

Brightness
Contrast
Sharpness
Tint
R slider bar
G slider bar
B slider bar
Saturation


That's it! There's no indication of high end or low end rgb. Will it be possible to get a good Calibration with these settings.

A single level greyscale control like you have is not so uncommon...How useful it is depends on how linear the greyscale errors are in your display and how linear the response is when you use those controls. In my experience using a single point control is worthwhile and will make the image more accurate but it's not as good as a multi-point greyscale adjustment. The response of displays is generally not linear and some sort of parametric greyscale/gamma is usually required to get a really accurate result.

[stevie79]

Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply. I also noticed a degamma settings slider 1-5, although I'm not sure exactly what degamma does? I did have a Google but couldn't get much info on it. I also noticed in service settings an r,g,b high end slider and an r and b offset slider. Anyway it seems I'm going to have plenty options to make adjustments if needed and thinking of buying the i1 pro to help me do it . It seems to be going for around 160gbp, more than what I anticipated paying but if that's the one I need and my picture is going to be much better then its worth every penny.

[Joshua Quain]

Hi Stevie - It sounds like the service menu does in fact allow for both upper and lower-end RGB adjustments for white point/grayscale. Offset is the "low" and high, is, well the "high" end. The "degamma" is probably simply gamma. As Gordon mentioned the best way to find out what "degamma" does (and if it actually works properly) is to measure it, change to 2, then measure again and change to 3, etc... and compare them to each other until you get the one closest to your target.

[stevie79]

Thanks Joshua it seems like I'm going to have more options than I originally thought :-) I just need to decide on which meter to purchase now, its looking like the i1 pro I just hope the results are good with a 720p projector! I don't think the wife would be happy paying 150-160 if there not :-/ exciting stuff :-)

[RICKYJ]

Originally Posted by stevie79

I just need to decide on which meter to purchase now, its looking like the i1 pro I just hope the results are good with a 720p projector! I don't think the wife would be happy paying 150-160 if there not :-/ exciting stuff :-)

Be careful here. You mention the i1Pro at 150-160. I would suspect that this is an i1display Pro, and not an i1Pro. They are totally different beasts, the i1Pro being a spectrophotometer, and the i1Display Pro being a colorimeter. The big difference to you though (apart from price, as the i1Pro is alot more expensive), is that the i1Display Pro is not currently supported within HCFR if that was your software of choice.

[stevie79]

Yes it was the i1 display pro I was looking at. Thanks :-) that was a close call. Now I'm not sure what to go for I've seen a soyder 4? Also I noticed a few people selling gretag Macbeth eye one display 2 on eBay. Are these the same as xrite

[RICKYJ]

Originally Posted by stevie79

Yes it was the i1 display pro I was looking at. Thanks :-) that was a close call. Now I'm not sure what to go for I've seen a soyder 4? Also I noticed a few people selling gretag Macbeth eye one display 2 on eBay. Are these the same as xrite

No problem. The spyder 4 is not at this time supported in HCFR either.

With regard to the Macbeth eye one display 2, this is the same as the Xrite display 2 (but possibly older). I would again tread with care here. The i1Display 2 was discontinued when the i1DisplayPro was released last year, which means any D2 bought now (even if factory sealed) has got to be at least 6 months old. Colorimeters are filter based and they can drift especially over time, so if you do go second hand, try and find out the history of the meter, i.e. age, conditions it has been kept in etc.

[stevie79]

Is there a meter that supports the software that's not discontinued.

[RICKYJ]

Originally Posted by stevie79

Is there a meter that supports the software that's not discontinued.

i1Pro (but that is a lot more expensive). The problem is that the HCFR software has not been updated for quite a while now, and in that time the products have evolved i.e. Spyder 4, i1DisplayPro. You can use the last generation products i.e. Spyder3 or i1D2/LT, you just have to be aware of their limitations due to the ageing process...