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Absorbtion vs diffusion for home cinema

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Old 30-06-2012, 1:46 PM   #1
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Absorbtion vs diffusion for home cinema

Okay there seems to be a conflict of advice in the world of proffesional acousticians and I'm wondering why that might be, surely there should be a similar standard of layout plans for home cinemas.

I have achieved a fantastic sound in my room, with bass traps from a very highly respected US company. So far I have bass traps in the front corners going from floor to ceiling, 3 absorbers spread out across a bare wall (window with blackout curtains on opposing wall so cannot use absorbers) and 3 bass traps on the rear wall behind the listening position.

I still have quite a bit of bass to tame as suggested in my waterfall, the ceiling is untreated and the areas in the rear corners of the room.

Now I have spoke to the company who has suggested more bass traps in the rear corners and maybe a couple of absorbers on the ceiling at the first reflection points. I am worried that the room may begin to sound too dead
so I suggested diffusion on the rear wall either side of the bass traps but they assured me in a small room absorbers are generally better.

When I read the UK acoustic companies they always suggest diffusion on the rear wall, so who is correct and why do they have different suggestions.

I would like to know which is correct as I want to finish the room off but I'm unsure which way to go now

I would appreciate your advice please.

Thanks in advance.

Marty
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Old 01-07-2012, 9:36 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by marty1 View Post
I still have quite a bit of bass to tame as suggested in my waterfall, the ceiling is untreated and the areas in the rear corners of the room.
I'm not sure how affective typical corner type traps will be assuming you're looking to address issues in the sub bass (<60hz) or lower bass range. It may be worth investigating the suitability of diaphragmatic panel absorbers if there is available space in appropriate installation positions.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:04 AM   #3
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Have you details of the size of your room?
The problem with diffusion is that your room needs to be big enough for this to actually happen. If the room is too small diffusion will not actually take place even with the panels in place.
If the room is very small most companies will suggest the more absorbers the better
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Old 01-07-2012, 5:48 PM   #4
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you aren't going to tame deep bass with 6" of bass trap. You'll need it in feet not inches to reach those lower sub bass levels.

As already stated, you'll need a bit of space for diffusion to work correctly.

If you're serious about sorting your bass, I'd look in to getting the whole rear or front wall made from as thick rockwool as you can (in feet) and get some room matching material to cover it.

or start looking into large resonators

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Old 01-07-2012, 6:18 PM   #5
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From what I have read, you would also need to use an air gap of around 18" in between the rear wall and trap.


How long is your room?
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Old 02-07-2012, 8:02 AM   #6
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Thanks for your replies

My room is 18ftx13ftx8.5ft. I would be sitting about 3ft and 7ft from the diffusers.

I'm not really trying to tame the low end but more so concentrating on softening the sound and getting nice clarity. I have a nice sound already but I want to try and cover the remaining bare walls to see if the sound improves further as adding what I have already made a night and day difference.

Marty
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Old 02-07-2012, 8:20 AM   #7
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your room is around the same size as mine. I had 10x panels in mine and it didn't really help the bass much, helped with midrange clarity though.

i've not used these before but they certainly look quite impressive for their price.. search blue frog on ebay. They sell 12" thick panels. 2 of them in each corner should help you. Then get some thin ones for first reflection points on the side walls
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Old 05-07-2012, 7:58 AM   #8
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The monster traps I have control the bass really really well, the difference was night and day when I got these, I am just trying to utilise every last bit of wall space to squeeze as much quality out as possible.
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Old 05-07-2012, 8:18 AM   #9
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Can you provide a link to these traps Marty...
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Old 06-07-2012, 7:56 AM   #10
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Monster Bass Trap : GIK Acoustics
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Old 08-07-2012, 3:56 AM   #11
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Hi Marty1,
Here's something I wrote over at Audiogon that might interest you:
"
Room treatments – where to start?

You ask great questions, many I’ve wrestled with myself. The approach I took was to
(1) Educate myself about small room acoustics.
(2) Measure the room before you do anything to establish a baseline to determine if and where problems exist and to compare against the addition of treatments and placement options.
(3) Create frequency range (i.e. low VS middle/high frequencies) dependant strategies for dealing with offending modes
(4) Determine if buying and/or building (DIY) treatments is best for you, after considering using regular household items like furniture, carpets, bookcases etc.

Education - Educating yourself will be an investment that will (i) save you money by buying or making (i.e. DIY) the ‘right’ products, (ii) save you time from conducting infinite trial and error placement options of the treatments, and (iii) allow you to critically evaluate products offered by manufacturers, most of whom exagerate their product’s performance specs for marketing purposes. I’d highly recommend you read Floyd Toole’s latest book www.amazon and also Alton Everest’s book www.amazon Harman has many good White Papers found here: www.harman papers

Tools – at the very least get a SPL meter which Radio Shack sells and download test tones from RealTraps to help with analyzing bass frequency modal peaks and nulls. You will also need to calculate your room’s modes or standing waves so this tool will do the job: www.harman You will also benefit from using a frequency wavelength chart for calculating 25% and 50% wavelength distances for absorption placement and diffusion depth respectively. I like this one: www.soundoctor Like anything, if you can’t measure it then you can’t manage it.

Strategy – Having a game plan is important and will help to determine what kind of treatment goes where and in which sequence things should be addressed. It’s likely a good idea to establish a ‘baseline’ to determine if you have acoustical problems, and from which to compare the addition of treatments and placements thereof. Deal with the offending reflections and leave the others alone. I use an Excel spreadsheet to record the SPL for a broad range of frequencies before any room treatments which became my baseline. Use the same Excel sheet to record the SPLs again for each subsequent ‘Test’ of adding treatments or different placement combinations to note the difference from your baseline.

Frequency-dependant treatments: generally speaking, you should treat the low and mid/high frequency regions separately; use about 300Hz as the transition zone frequency to differentiate the treatment strategies. Bass frequencies ( 300Hz).

Personally, I chose to tackle the bass region first because modal peaks in this region can reach 20dB which drowns out the mid and high frequencies, so clearing up the bass should also introduce more perceived clarity into the upper frequencies too.
• 20Hz to +-50Hz -> use EQ to tame these very low peaks.
• 50Hz to +-100Hz -> use Helmholtz or Diaphragmatic type bass traps for this next lowest region. Placement effectiveness for diaphragmatic bass traps is where air particle pressure is maximized which is at the wall, so these traps are hung right on the wall with no air gap behind them.
• 100Hz – 300Hz -> use resistive type bass traps (e.g. Fiberglass filled) for this bass region. Placement effectiveness is maximized when air particle velocity is maximized which is at the 25% wavelength mark, so from 34” to 11.5” out from the wall for 100Hz and 300Hz respectively. A one or two inch air space won’t cut it – try 7” to 11” air space instead and extend the fiberglass bass trap as far into the room as you can (34” to get to 100Hz). 34” less 11” equals a bass trap of 23” thickness, so buying 2”, 4” or even 6” thick traps won’t likely work well, unless you layer them to extend the total thickness.

If you can swing it, put bass traps in all four room corners from floor to ceiling, and at the mid point of your front or back wall in the floor/wall corner.
For the mid/high frequencies, you can start off using normal possessions like furniture, bookcases etc, but you will need to know where things should go and if they should be diffusive or absorptive in nature.

Of the 6 room surfaces, what should you tackle in which sequence? Here’s one approach:
(1) Since first reflection points are the strongest reflections, deal with the floor and ceiling ones first via absorption and diffusion respectively. Research indicates that lateral side wall first reflections add positive contributions to your room’s sonics by widing the apparent sound stage and creating listener envelopment.
(2) Try adding diffusion to the back wall to keep the energy in the room but attenuate the direct reflections back to the listening position
(3) The front wall can be either absorption or diffusion based on personal taste and type of speakers
Another strategy worth considering is Buy VS Build. Do you want to buy finished products and pay top dollar (as used acoustical treatments are seldom available) or invest your time and energy into building something that will save you money and whose specs can outperform mass produced items?

After saying all of the above here are some of my personal experiences:
• Wall to wall carpet absorbs much more high frequencies than I first expected so to prevent a ‘dead sounding’ room, I focused on using diffusion rather than more absorption for mid/high frequencies which works like a charm. I also put a hard diffusive/reflective front face to many of my bass traps to again prevent further absorption of mid/high frequencies.
• Two parallel side walls introduced a very audible flutter echo which was eliminated with diffusion
• Walls with openings (e.g. doors, windows) extend the ‘acoustical length’ of the room dimension. For example, in my room placing bass trap absorption out from the front wall (which has a door that was shut) at the 25% point of 80Hz didn’t have the same impact as when the absorbers were moved to the back wall (with no door/windows) and placed at the exact same point.
• Experiment with the depth of the air space behind your resistive type bass traps. Real audible differences can be heard by pulling them out further and further from the corners.

Good luck.
"
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Old 08-07-2012, 4:02 AM   #12
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Marty1 - have you seen this clip with Dr Floyd Toole?

Podcast 14: Floyd Toole | Home Theater

kevin
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Old 18-07-2012, 10:21 PM   #13
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Thanks Kevin, very informative, I appreciate it

Marty
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