[damo_in_sale]

I’ve used this link provided by NJP: http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/...-co2-emissions

The data is old, 2003, but will suffice for the purpose of my example. But according to the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency, in 2006 China overtook the USA in CO2 output by a whopping 9% increase in year 2005. As a result, I will use the 9% increment and apply it to the old data, which is conservative as the base values are lower.

2003 is the baseline.

Year --------Chinas CO2 output (tonnes) -----Increase in emission rate over year 2003
2003 ------- 3,473,600,000 ------------------ 0
2004 ------- 3,786,224,000 ------------------ 312,624,000
2005 ------- 4,126,984,000 ------------------ 653,384,000


UK CO2 output, year 2003 = 558,225,000 tonnes.


Sorry to spoil the party with reality.

[Stephen Wilde]

Well I do think we could make moral and economic gains by using our inventiveness to find ways of reducing emissions sensibly on grounds other than MMGW.

It's only the signs of politically motivated (left and right) hair shirt guilt induced panic that I caution against.

At some point nations like China and India are going to become desperate for such expertise and will be prepared to pay for it.

[Mr Incredible]

2005: China's population exceeded 1.3bn, UK's was 60 million.
In 2005 the average person in China produced 3.2 tonnes of CO2.
In the UK 10.88 tonnes per person. More than 3 times the rate of production.
Until we are on an individual parity I can't see how arguing over total figures is morally just TBH

ANY CO2 reduction is both welcome and desirable.

[Stuart Wright]

How about the UK can exert political pressure on other countries? How about the UK can set an example to the rest of the world? The developing countries are going to tell us to bog off if we don't lead by example.
How about the UK can also develop new technologies to combat the problem?
The UK can do far more than nothing.

[Nimby]

Denmark is tiny.

6 million people.

It developed and exports wind turbines to the world.

It develops a large fraction of its power from wind energy and exports it under the right conditions.

It has district heating in all cities, towns and large villages.

It has recycling centers in all of the above.

It has developed its own biodiesel plants.

It has developed a VHT coal fired power station.

It has cycle lanes on almost all roads.

Perhaps Denmark can persuade the UK to do something?

[andykn]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

I’ve used this link provided by NJP: http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/...-co2-emissions

The data is old, 2003, but will suffice for the purpose of my example. But according to the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency, in 2006 China overtook the USA in CO2 output by a whopping 9% increase in year 2005. As a result, I will use the 9% increment and apply it to the old data, which is conservative as the base values are lower.

2003 is the baseline.

Year --------Chinas CO2 output (tonnes) -----Increase in emission rate over year 2003
2003 ------- 3,473,600,000 ------------------ 0
2004 ------- 3,786,224,000 ------------------ 312,624,000
2005 ------- 4,126,984,000 ------------------ 653,384,000


UK CO2 output, year 2003 = 558,225,000 tonnes.


Sorry to spoil the party with reality.

And how much of that increase is to produce our goods?

[B Caine]

It`s just another excuse for the government to tax us again, they see a carbon tax and then anything "Green" so lets tax it, the rest of the world is having a ball but us dopes think we can change the world, we should open our eyes and wiat till the States, China, India and all the really big countries start to do their bit, if you took the UK off the map our emissions wouldn`t make any diference to the world. Just my two pennuth.

[Mr Incredible]

If anyone does believe that CO2 emissions need to be controlled and reduced, and that it is the countries like China and India that will have the biggest impact, we'll be in a better position to persuade them to change if we show our commitment and resolve to change. Sharing our expertise and knowledge will strengthen our credibility and authority in asking for other countires to change.

"Do as I say, don't do as I do" is not the way to reduce worldwide CO2 levels.

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by Mr Incredible

"Do as I say, don't do as I do" is not the way to reduce worldwide CO2 levels.

Exactly!

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by B Caine

It`s just another excuse for the government to tax us again, they see a carbon tax and then anything "Green" so lets tax it, .....

Come on then, give us examples of Green taxes. NJP can up with a reference in another thread that motoring is cheaper now than in the 80's (in real terms) so there is no green tax on motoring. There is a thread on WEEE so leave that out as well, as its more like an addition to VAT. More examples please.

[Mr Incredible]

Originally Posted by Nimby

Denmark is tiny.

6 million people.

But at least Denmark has nearly twice the area per population that the UK has!

Stats over 200 -2003 suggest that Denmarks per capita CO2 production was higher than the UK. Do pigs actually fly in Denmark?

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

How about the UK can exert political pressure on other countries?

Yes that’s right. We can ask politely that the Chinese and Indians stop developing their economy and stop their attempts at improving the lives of their desperately poor.

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

How about the UK can set an example to the rest of the world?

At what cost to your children? Do you know?

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

The developing countries are going to tell us to bog off if we don't lead by example.

Actually, they are telling us to ‘bog off’ because of our HISTORIC output. In my opinion they will tell us to bog off even if every UK citizen commits Hari Kari.

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

How about the UK can also develop new technologies to combat the problem?

If those ‘technologies’, which you haven’t specified, are saleable then that is a great idea.

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

The UK can do far more than nothing.

The UK can do loads of things, but will it make any REAL difference is my question. And how many of those ‘things’ will be damaging to the welfare and future chances of your children?

How about you ponder the very simple calculations I have made above?

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Come on then, give us examples of Green taxes. NJP can up with a reference in another thread that motoring is cheaper now than in the 80's (in real terms) so there is no green tax on motoring. There is a thread on WEEE so leave that out as well, as its more like an addition to VAT. More examples please.

I expect that motoring IS cheaper than in the past. That is a reason to strip off your clothes and take to the streets in delight, because the motorcar is now more affordable to more people.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by andykn

And how much of that increase is to produce our goods?

Let say 100% of our output is mirrored in China in order to provide us with goods and services, just to be generous.

We can all commit Hari Kari in the UK and retard CO2 atmospheric concentration increases by four years.

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

How about you explain why this entire thread was deleted, and then reinstated?

Quite simple really. I deleted your thread as it directly implied that the UK contribution to combating MMGW was worthless. I saw this as yet another example of denial on your part. Which of course it was.

Stuart then reinstated the thread to make a serious point and continue the discussion. Whereupon you couldn't resist making yet more points of denial that UK participation in combating MMGW is a waste of effort.

Meanwhile I had cut the lawn and had another go at tidying the shed.

Not boring you, am I?

[Nimby]

damo, baby.

It pains me to have to point out that if your Marvin-like attitude to UK CMMGW was carried over to all other lands then indeed nothing would ever happen.

By all of us agreeing and cooperating in the reduction of CO2 we all add to the whole. Eventually making a large hole in CO2 production.

Of course one country doesn't add up to a lot. But a lot of not adding up to a lot eventually becomes a hell of a lot.

Not being too technical for you, am I?

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by Nimby

Quite simple really. I deleted your thread as it directly implied that the UK contribution to combating MMGW was worthless.

Could you please point me to the forum rule I had broken?

Originally Posted by Nimby

I saw this as yet another example of denial on your part. Which of course it was.

Not denial of MMGW. That would be against the spirit of the forum.



What I have done is spell out simple facts, for all to read.

[Nimby]

I seem to have posted a suitable response while you were practicing your typing.

[Nimby]

A note to people who do not believe that global warming is a result of man's influence, this forum is *not* for you. Arguments as to whether global warming exists or not; or that it exists as a result of man's influence or not are mute.

[Nimby]

Your questions are already covered by rule 13.

[MikeTV]

The premise that because the UK has a small population, we should do nothing, is simply silly. That is like saying, because there not many murders in the UK, compared to the global total, we can ignore it. Our per capita emissions are greater than almost any other country in the world. That is why we must act.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by B Caine

It`s just another excuse for the government to tax us again, they see a carbon tax and then anything "Green" so lets tax it, the rest of the world is having a ball but us dopes think we can change the world, we should open our eyes and wiat till the States, China, India and all the really big countries start to do their bit, if you took the UK off the map our emissions wouldn`t make any diference to the world. Just my two pennuth.

1/ The government does not need "another excuse" to tax us on green grounds - pollution and congestio are good enough grounds even if MMGW went away.

Its because people like you won't do anything until taxed into it that we get the taxes, its your fault.

2/ We can't wait around for someone else to blink first, and our emmisions do make a difference, especially when combined with the Chinese emissions involved in producing our goods. If you cut your emissions by half, you'd still be producing more CO2 than your Chinese oppo.

How much persuading do you need to save yourself some money? Or will you wait until we get taxed into it?

[andykn]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

I expect that motoring IS cheaper than in the past. That is a reason to strip off your clothes and take to the streets in delight, because the motorcar is now more affordable to more people.

We can't - the streets are now completely clogged with cars, now motoring's cheaper.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

Let say 100% of our output is mirrored in China in order to provide us with goods and services, just to be generous.

We can all commit Hari Kari in the UK and retard CO2 atmospheric concentration increases by four years.

Assuming China and the other industrialised countries who buy from it do nothing.

If I reduce my emissions to zero and no-one else in my street makes any effort then their increasing motoring and foreign holidays will wipe out my effort in maybe four years. Still not a good reason for me not to save my money.

[Mr Incredible]

Originally Posted by andykn

Still not a good reason for me not to save my money.

Saving money is a rather nice, but nonetheless, by-product of CO2 reduction. People can save money in lots of ways without necessarily reducing CO2 emissions. We need CO2 reduction, period. "Every little helps"!

[Stephen Wilde]

Whether CO2 production is a bad thing or not it's clear that unless we get a significant climate change reversal in the next 5 years CO2 reduction techniques will be a highly marketable commodity.

I say lets's go for it and sell our expertise as best we can.

Personally I think CO2 emissions are the least of the problems that face us but I'm a capitalist rather than a socialist so it will be profitable to give the punters what they want in the short term.

I also suspect that the models will diverge from reality soon enough but a buck or two can be made in the meantime and if I'm wrong about the climate the gains will be even greater.

I do believe that capitalism in the raw needs to be restrained but going too far is as bad as not going far enough.

Strangely enough I do have faith in our eventual victory over the emotions that divide us.

If we defeated Fascism and Communism in the 20th Century I'm sure we can deal with our other problems in the 21st Century. Might well have a few disasters on the way but look how fast we recovered from two world wars and a cold war. Try telling someone in the Warsaw Ghetto, the Soviet Gulag or the London Blitz how things would be in 2005 and you would be faced with total disbelief.

The world and society will progress in their own way at their own speed and we are but straws in the wind of history.

A sense of humility and proportion is all.

[Nimby]

The greatest change over the last half century is the emancipation of the man (and woman) in the street. The world's media taught as that those in power deserve little respect whatever the colour of their politics.

The youth rebellion of the 60s and 70s changed the world and was quite unforeseen.

It is not so much the development of new technologies that matter so much as making them cheaply available in comparison with present levels. Getting them out to the general population requires a sea change in present energy supply thinking. Much like the telephone service providers are discovering with the digital age. There has never been a better time in history to shift to a separate low voltage DC supply for much of the equipment we use today. Even lighting is finally heading that way now. A DC world is easier to supply from storage batteries charged from windturbines and solar cells. Local power production is more efficient than vast and remote power stations.

[damo_in_sale]

Hi NJP,

I have used data recommended by yourself, albeit not the incremental increase of Chinas CO2 output of course, that was sourced from a Netherlands agency.
What do you make of my original calculations? If there are any errors then can you correct them for me please?

[twhdelboy]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

The UK can do loads of things, but will it make any REAL difference is my question. And how many of those ‘things’ will be damaging to the welfare and future chances of your children?

the day you walk to work or ride a bike and dont take the car you have made a difference dude...a ten thousand mile journey starts with one single step.

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by twhdelboy

the day you walk to work or ride a bike and dont take the car you have made a difference dude...a ten thousand mile journey starts with one single step.

Oh dear, you really shouldn't quote Mao Tse-tung to damo, he will now write you off as a commie agitator