[paul1967]

Why because they have bigger houses which use more power , cars which use more fuel and go on far away holidays in airplanes, and who tell use we should save the planet,Posh People. Do as I say not as I do , well that's what it said on the telly.

[Corey USA]

Originally Posted by paul1967

Why because they have bigger houses which use more power , cars which use more fuel and go on far away holidays in airplanes, and who tell use we should save the planet,Posh People. Do as I say not as I do , well that's what it said on the telly.

Maybe it is better to say ignorant, corrupt, and greedy(includes over consumption).

No one particular group is responsible for the human made mess we are in.

Its the actions that certain humans choose to pursue that is destructive.

It is the actions that we need to fix by education or force through establishing rules that say those destructive actions are unacceptable.

[Nimby]

It would be horribly tempting to agree with the OP.

Unfortunately it is the vast majority who ( by sheer weight of numbers) have the most effect globally.

Change the lifestyles of the rich and nobody would ever notice.

Change one tiny aspect of the lifestyles of the many and you can change the world.

[paul1967]

So the best thing to do if you want to have it all is get rich do what you want because then being a minority you won't make differance to the out come of gobal warming, right I'm off to make my 1st mill.

[simonoaks]

Originally Posted by paul1967

So the best thing to do if you want to have it all is get rich do what you want because then being a minority you won't make differance to the out come of gobal warming, right I'm off to make my 1st mill.

well good luck with that, you might want to aim for 2mill, as 1mill will only give you about 400k after tax

[Nimby]

Riches alone do not make a happy person.

I'd rather be hungry for things I can't afford, until the day I die, than be able to afford anything at a whim.

To be able to afford everything would be a kind of living hell.

It's the wanting that makes things exciting. The expectation.

Once you own something it's just another possession.

If everybody was rich the world would be truly awful.

Notice how prices are rising as China and India grow more wealthy?

That means they can finally afford things we ourselves have taken for granted for decades.

Suddenly oil, grain, milk and dairy products are in short supply.

Prices are only beginning to climb to match demand.

If global warming doesn't get us we are in for a hell of a shock anyway.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by simonoaks

well good luck with that, you might want to aim for 2mill, as 1mill will only give you about 400k after tax

You need a better accountant.

[Stephen Wilde]

Originally Posted by Nimby

Riches alone do not make a happy person.

I'd rather be hungry for things I can't afford, until the day I die, than be able to afford anything at a whim.

To be able to afford everything would be a kind of living hell.

It's the wanting that makes things exciting. The expectation.

Once you own something it's just another possession.

If everybody was rich the world would be truly awful.

Notice how prices are rising as China and India grow more wealthy?

That means they can finally afford things we ourselves have taken for granted for decades.

Suddenly oil, grain, milk and dairy products are in short supply.

Prices are only beginning to climb to match demand.

If global warming doesn't get us we are in for a hell of a shock anyway.

Some interesting points there.

Personally I hate wanting things and try to control the urge but it seems to be a hugely powerful and universal human trait. Buddhists seem to be the best at controlling it.

I'd like to have enough money for such urges to go away. That would be true freedom in my view. Knowing that time is your own with no need to think about survival or possessions or financial obligations or responsibilities for the support of others.

The trouble is that such freedom seems to detach some from their basic humanity and drives a gap between them and those who do not enjoy such freedom.

Others become ever more greedy for more because such freedom leaves a gap in their souls which can only be filled by more of the same.

One solution is to have enough to remove material need and then be able to discipline oneself to get by on even less so as not to deprive the body and mind of regular hungers of one sort or another.

The chances of getting the whole planet to operate on such lines is pretty remote because first you have to get rid of the enormous material need that most people have in the poorer nations.

That's one reason I look askance at solutions that would keep the poor as they are. That would be one consequence of driving down the consumer activity in Western nations.

Not a problem with an obvious solution.

[Nimby]

Agreed. I think China and India will have enormous difficulty keeping a lid on inequality.

That's not a political observation. Merely an observed fact.

It may explain the hard line being driven by the Communist leadership.

Envy seems to be the driving force behind most human activity.

Where there is no way to satisfy the hunger for "things" legally then it all goes badly wrong.

[Geofbob]

Surely, the basic truth is that economic activity in any form leads to CO2 emissions and global warming. Thus cutting down in one area - say travelling by plane - will not reduce emissions much, if the same money is spent, say, on luxury, technological goods which involve a lot of energy in their production, distribution and marketing. Simply reducing individual energy consumption would only work if we in the developed world accepted a drastic reduction in our standard of living; and if those in the developing world abandoned their aspirations for vastly improved lives. And both these routes are extremely unlikely, to say the least.

My personal view is that certainly everybody should try to curb their material demands, especially where these veer into outright greed and over-consumption. But that real solutions to global warming, pollution etc will be found, not in adopting a near-religious, hair-shirt philosophy of self-denial, but through rational means, particularly by adopting new science and technology - yes, including nuclear power, as well as renewables. And if this sounds a little like the path advocated by George Bush and the neo-Cons, then maybe for once they have got it right!

[Nimby]

I would prefer to think that the balance lies in making small adjustments to a lot of people's rather wasteful ways. I don't see this as dramatic cut back in living standards at all.

The sheer numbers involved worldwide can have a real impact no matter how small the change. Even if you limit these adjustments to the developed world it will still work wonders.

Let's take something terribly boring but with a powerful chance of success if enough people adopt it as a personal policy at home. They will save a lot of money into the bargain. Try wearing a jumper instead of turning up the heating. Or wear a jumper and reduce the thermostat setting by a degree or two. Horribly non-techy but it works. Given enough people over time this could have a major effect on worldwide CO2 levels.

Does anybody remember the American power company handing out free CF bulbs to its customers? The power company obviously thought that their small population of customers could save the cost of borrowing funds to build a new power station.

Does turning out the lights at vast empty office block reduce your living standards? I really don't think so.

Enjoying the benefits of solar space warming connects you to a whole new way of looking at your own world. A solar heated space can be used to grow superb fresh fruit and veg which is so utterly tasteless in the shops. It can also be used for sitting out and soaking up the view or enjoying your garden. You avoid winter sadness by enjoying higher light levels without having to get cold outside. The fresh air from the solar space wafting through the house is beneficial compared with any other kind of heating. You open an upstairs window and a natural chimney effect warms and clears the house of modern toxins. Your family's life is healthier as a result.

You actually get an improved lifestyle for very little investment indeed. And what if the sun doesn't shine? You use your heating just as you would if you had no solar space. Even grey skies will heat a greenhouse. In fact shading may be your greatest need for six months of the year.

It is amazing how many open balconies there are on blocks of flats. Glazing them will give you a solar space. Just as has been done on many blocks in Denmark when renovating. The protection provided to the doors and windows saves painting and also dramatically reduces heat loss to the flat through the climate-protected wall and windows.

No reduction of living standards so far.

[simonoaks]

economic activity and capitalism is what, at the moment, keeps the whole world in balance and reasonably stable. However the dependancy on money could well be a downfall too; if there was a full market crash and economic meltdown, it would be much more devistating for the planet than any sort of change in climate.

[njp]

Originally Posted by simonoaks

economic activity and capitalism is what, at the moment, keeps the whole world in balance and reasonably stable. However the dependancy on money could well be a downfall too; if there was a full market crash and economic meltdown, it would be much more devistating for the planet than any sort of change in climate.

I think perhaps you underestimate the scale of climate change that is possible in the long term if we fail to act, and the economic impact that even more modest climate change in the medium term is likely to have.

[simonoaks]

Originally Posted by njp

I think perhaps you underestimate the scale of climate change that is possible in the long term if we fail to act, and the economic impact that even more modest climate change in the medium term is likely to have.

interesting, what scale are we talking about? What will happen if nothing is done compared to what will happen if we cut emissions down to recommended levels in recommended time frames ?

[wibblywobbly]

I agree with SimonOaks, exactly what will be the effect of us doing what the Green people want? I suspect that they have no idea, it just gives a group of people with no importance a degree of self esteem. Call it attention seeking if you want.

This country occupies less that 2% of the planets surface and is sparsely populated. There is absolutely nothing that any of us can do that will affect global warming one jot.

Global warming is occuring on the moon and on Mars. The reason? We are in a solar cycle that brings us closer to the sun. Add to that the massive amounts of depleted uranium now in the global atmosphere, and the antics of the NWO, and you soon come to realise that the whole thing is a scam to fool us into accepting taxes based on nothing more than modern day witchcraft.

I read a long time ago that humans only generate 2% of the gases that change the atmosphere, and that the rest is produced by cows breaking wind and volcanoes. When people quote percentages they are referring to a percentage of that 2%, not a percentage of the 100%, or the 98% that is beyond our control.

Look at the media hype about plastic shopping bags? They comprise something like 0.02% of landfill waste, in other words if we all stopped using them it wouldn't make any difference at all.

There is now a huge and very profitable industry that is running on myths and legends, and the longer we all assume that what is broadcast on the conditioning box is the gospel truth, the longer those seeking to make a fast buck will exploit us all.

Nuff said, off my soap box now.

Rob G

[njp]

Originally Posted by wibblywobbly

I agree with SimonOaks, exactly what will be the effect of us doing what the Green people want? I suspect that they have no idea, it just gives a group of people with no importance a degree of self esteem. Call it attention seeking if you want.

No, let's call it science, because that is what it is. Global warming isn't an invention of some unwashed, woolly thinking "Greens" that exist only in your imagination.

This country occupies less that 2% of the planets surface and is sparsely populated. There is absolutely nothing that any of us can do that will affect global warming one jot.

Wrong.

Global warming is occuring on the moon and on Mars. The reason? We are in a solar cycle that brings us closer to the sun.

Sigh. I am actually quite bored with refuting this particular piece of silliness now, and you wouldn't read anything I pointed you to anyway. So I'll just say you are wrong. Now if you wish to present something that you regard as "evidence" for this assertion, I will be quite happy to explain to you why it is wrong, in as much detail as you require.

Add to that the massive amounts of depleted uranium now in the global atmosphere,

What? Where do you get this stuff? Even if there were "massive amounts of depleted uranium in the atmosphere" (and I assure you that there aren't), what effect do you think it would be having on the climate?

I read a long time ago that humans only generate 2% of the gases that change the atmosphere, and that the rest is produced by cows breaking wind and volcanoes.

Yes I am quite sure you did read that. It is wrong.

[Nimby]

Is there any point in telling "w.wobbly" that plastic bags last 1000 years in landfill? Thought not.

Originally Posted by Nimby

Is there any point in telling "w.wobbly" that plastic bags last 1000 years in landfill? Thought not.

I was surprised that NJP bothered to respond at all.

Just the usual conspiracy nonsense.

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by Nimby

Is there any point in telling "w.wobbly" that plastic bags last 1000 years in landfill? Thought not.

Can someone please clear up this point. Plastic bags don't last 1000 years. In fact if you keep a plastic bag out in the garden for 6 months it has disintegrated to such an extent that it is practically unrecognisable. After a couple of years if you are careful you may find minute fragments. Is it that 1000 years down the line, an analytic chemist would be able to detect traces of the plastic in which it is buried or some other definition of 'last a 1000 yrs'?

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by nikyzf

I was surprised that NJP bothered to respond at all.

Just the usual conspiracy nonsense.

Sorry, but which particular bit was 'conspiracy nonsense' ?

[simonoaks]

Originally Posted by simonoaks

interesting, what scale are we talking about? What will happen if nothing is done compared to what will happen if we cut emissions down to recommended levels in recommended time frames ?

I guess, when it actually comes to predicting would COULD happen as a result of clobal warming, no one actually knows ?

But I suppose it is too complex to predict and would just be theories.

[Nimby]

Plastic is degraded by UV. If it is buried the UV can't reach it.
If you've ever seen a landfill site you will recognise the problems they have with plastic blowing all over the place.
Unfortunately it isn't long exposed to UV before it gets buried again.
The bags have to be perforated by the tines on the wheels of the special vehicles they use to push the rubbish about or the sealed contents will never break down. (except anaerobically)

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Sorry, but which particular bit was 'conspiracy nonsense' ?

Here's the bit I mean, which I should've quoted above, I admin

From WibblyWobbly

...and you soon come to realise that the whole thing is a scam to fool us into accepting taxes based on nothing more than modern day witchcraft.

But the whole post reeks of it really.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by wibblywobbly

I agree with SimonOaks, exactly what will be the effect of us doing what the Green people want? I suspect that they have no idea, it just gives a group of people with no importance a degree of self esteem. Call it attention seeking if you want.

Irrelevant. Its about doing what the scientists of Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Russia, the UK and the US want.They do have an idea.

...the whole thing is a scam to fool us into accepting taxes based on nothing more than modern day witchcraft.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Governments do not need MMGW to raise environmental taxes, pollution and congestion are good enough reasons.

[simonoaks]

Originally Posted by wibblywobbly

I agree with SimonOaks, G

Rob,

I would prefer it if you didn't use me as a statement to agree with then go on to say something I am not

cheers

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Sorry, but which particular bit was 'conspiracy nonsense' ?

Originally Posted by nikyzf

Here's the bit I mean, which I should've quoted above, I admin

From WibblyWobbly


But the whole post reeks of it really.

Oh dear I'm slowly losing the will to live. Apologies nikyzf, I read it as you thought njp's response was conspiracy theory rather than the drivel he was responding to. Hence my question. Perhaps one day this whole forum will lurch back to its point of reference, which will initially make it quieter, but more interesting to everyone except trolls.

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Oh dear I'm slowly losing the will to live. Apologies nikyzf, I read it as you thought njp's response was conspiracy theory rather than the drivel he was responding to. Hence my question. Perhaps one day this whole forum will lurch back to its point of reference, which will initially make it quieter, but more interesting to everyone except trolls.

I was a bit surprised that you asked as it should be clear to anyone that my views on this subject are very similar to NJP's.

Glad to have cleared things up, and perhaps restored your will to live.

[Corey USA]

Plastic issue which is most widely used by posh people

Plastic ocean related links to educate you on the reality of plastic on a bigger picture than just landfills.
http://www.wired.com/science/discove.../2004/06/63699

Trash island in the pacific
http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Oce...and24feb04.htm

Here is a good source on plastic waste, which, has the above link.
http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Ocean/ocean.htm