[Munkey Boy]

Well, I guess that some of us on here have pretty hefty electricity bills , and I'm no exception. That said, I'd like to do as much as I can to reduce carbon use, so what do people think about scheme like Carbon Neutral run by my supplier Scottish Power?

Ran their calculator and would cost me £80 per year to invest in their "Futures Portfolio" and offset my 7.5 tonnes of CO2 our household produces.

Gimmick or genuinely doing something? Are any other suppliers running better schemes? What do you guys do? And how much CO2 do you produce?

Thanks in advance

[blearyeyes]

Originally Posted by Munkey Boy

Well, I guess that some of us on here have pretty hefty electricity bills , and I'm no exception. That said, I'd like to do as much as I can to reduce carbon use, so what do people think about scheme like Carbon Neutral run by my supplier Scottish Power?

Ran their calculator and would cost me £80 per year to invest in their "Futures Portfolio" and offset my 7.5 tonnes of CO2 our household produces.

Gimmick or genuinely doing something? Are any other suppliers running better schemes? What do you guys do? And how much CO2 do you produce?

Thanks in advance

Save your money. Carbon offsetting scam was exposed in a Dispatches programme recently.

[dan54]

Originally Posted by Munkey Boy

Ran their calculator and would cost me £80 per year to invest in

Always costs something doesnt it? I always think who falls for scams like "send us £25 quid to claim your prize draw winnings" and "youve been selected for a free kitchen if we can use it as a show piece" and this is just another one.

[Munkey Boy]

So you 're implying they just take your money and do nothing with it? Wouldn't that be illegal?

And what was the Dispatches thing about briefly?

[njp]

Originally Posted by Munkey Boy

So you 're implying they just take your money and do nothing with it? Wouldn't that be illegal?

And what was the Dispatches thing about briefly?

It was about the lack of regulation in the burgeoning offsetting industry. A lot of the money seems to end up in projects which, whilst they are good in a carbon-offsetting sense, would have happened anyway. The extra money just boosts the profits for all concerned.

[ad47uk]

so you are paying twice? once for the energy you use and another £80 on something that I doubt will make any difference at all? Good grief, anything to make money, this carbon rubbish is just a way of getting people to part with their money or a way for the government to rake in more cash from gulable people.


It will not make any difference what we do, the climate is changing, that is what it does, me, you or any one else will not stop it.

[njp]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

It will not make any difference what we do, the climate is changing, that is what it does, me, you or any one else will not stop it.

No, it's changing (extremely rapidly) because of the CO2 that we are pumping into the atmosphere. If we stabilise those levels by reducing our emissions, we can limit the future temperature increases.

[Corey USA]

There is no adequate alternative to conservation which reduces your consumption, by simply using less.

Anything relying on nature to fix a man made problem will not work as demonstrated time and time again. The key is we do not want to accept personal responsibility. Since we don't want to accept personal responsibility we try to pass it off to someone else to fix by carbon offsetting. Thus by taking this action we are trying to put the responsibility onto someone Else's shoulder to correct your mistake. In reality no one else can be responsible for your actions for it is you who chose to pursue a negative action that has a bad consequence. thus the damage is done and really can't be undone.
For example: You kill something, it will never live again thus the damage is done by the negative action. There is no amount of trees that you can plant that will bring back that life. So does it not make sense to simply not do that negative action? which lead to the death of that something?

This translates over to cutting our footprint We can choose to continue to over consume thus the damage that is being done and can never be restored to original before the negative action of over consumption occurred.

We all have a footprint. There is no true way to be completely neutral. Every action actually has multiple reactions (or consequences) this could be seen as the "total cost".(I do not mean this in terms of physics definition.)
Since there are multiple consequences that trigger different feedback loops we truly don't know the true total impact of our actions. Especially those actions that modify the environment in any way.

Tree planting for purpose of carbon offsetting is one way of modifying the environment that has multitudes of consequences that we as humans can never completely understand and thus should not act as if we do, as we do now.

Some of the third world offset projects are not wanted by the indigenous people or are extreemly harmful to them.

Mono crop trees are an example. they destroy biodiversity, and upset their way of life, not to mention upsetting the regions ecosystem severly or entirely. Once an ecosystem is destroyed there is no getting it back to original conditions.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by njp

No, it's changing (extremely rapidly) because of the CO2 that we are pumping into the atmosphere. If we stabilise those levels by reducing our emissions, we can limit the future temperature increases.

No, it will not make a difference. even if I believed that my so called carbon footprint was having an impact, I would not do anything about it, why should I, when you got China and India not caring and doing what they want and then you got the U.S which is one of the biggest polluter out there.

If we are having an impact then stop America, Russia and Europe sending rockets and space shuttles into space, after all that can't be doing much good.

It is just a load of cobblers, no one knows what is happening or why and they are just guessing.

Last year when we had hot weather, we was told that it was because of Climate change and we would now have hot summers, now this year, we have had loads of rain and flodds and we was told that was because of climate change and would have more of it.
So who or what is correct, hot summers every year or Floods every year?

No one knows, not even the so called experts, it is all about scaring the public, so we will pay more so called green tax.

It don't work with me and I will use what I like, when I like and how much I like.

[njp]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

It don't work with me and I will use what I like, when I like and how much I like.

I guess change will have to be forced on you.

[Steve.J.Davies]

Originally Posted by njp

I guess change will have to be forced on you.

A new meaning for "power trip" perhaps ? ?

[Munkey Boy]

Originally Posted by Steve.J.Davies

A new meaning for "power trip" perhaps ? ?

So are you advocating anarchy? Where an individual believes they can't do anything on their own, they should feel empowered by a government that encourages people to make the right choices, so we'd be safe in the knowledge that we would actually be making a significant difference because it's collective.

To that end, I wish they'd make electricity suppliers invest in green energy for the benefit of all of us.

[Steve.J.Davies]

Originally Posted by Munkey Boy

So are you advocating anarchy? Where an individual believes they can't do anything on their own, they should feel empowered by a government that encourages people to make the right choices, so we'd be safe in the knowledge that we would actually be making a significant difference because it's collective.

To that end, I wish they'd make electricity suppliers invest in green energy for the benefit of all of us.

"power Trip": A pun on three levels - could not resist.

When one group insists on forcing its will upon others (upon not on) we have another state than anarchy.

Will leave the name of that situation as an exercise for the reader . .

[Munkey Boy]

Originally Posted by Steve.J.Davies

"power Trip": A pun on three levels - could not resist.

When one group insists on forcing its will upon others (upon not on) we have another state than anarchy.

Will leave the name of that situation as an exercise for the reader . .

Have you another pun for us then?

You talk as if this "group" (the government) were an unelected dictatorship. So many people who don't even vote are vocal when the government does things they don't like. Perhaps we shouldn't vote at all but just get our policies from online petitions instead? (That's sarcasm btw, in case anyone didn't get it)

Anyway, to get back to something vaguely related to the topic, what government backed schemes do people know about to reduce electricity consumption (solar panels, wind turbines etc)? It seems I'm inelgible for the ones I've seen so far because I'm not on income support...

[njp]

Originally Posted by Steve.J.Davies

When one group insists on forcing its will upon others (upon not on) we have another state than anarchy.

Will leave the name of that situation as an exercise for the reader . .

Democracy?

[Steve.J.Davies]

Originally Posted by njp

Democracy?

You forgot the smiley to indicate you are joking - I most sincerely hope.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by njp

I guess change will have to be forced on you.

Oh yes, and who is going to force it onto me and how will they do that? no one have got the guts to force people to change. and they won't do it.

at the end of the day I still use what power I want to and unless they are going to limit my power per day, there is no way they can force me to do anything and the chance of limiting my power is zero.

Power generator companies want people to use more power, that is how they make money

so tell me how is change going to be forced on me?

[Munkey Boy]

Can I ask that people who wish to debate politics take their argument to another thread please, there's more than 1 or 2 going. I had a quite legitimate question that's being drowned out, and I thought it was relatively in the spirit of this forum:

Are there any government backed schemes that people know about to reduce electricity consumption (solar panels, wind turbines etc) in the UK? It seems I'm inelgible for the ones I've seen so far because I'm not on income support... Even if the answer is that there aren't any, I'd like to know so I can stop looking. TIA to anyone who may take the time out for this.

[Corey USA]

I don't know of what is going on in the UK regarding energy schemes but What I can offer is a site that could take a big chunk out of your energy use

Its a refrigerator that may be the best unit currently available commercially

"Sun frost" Sunfrost.com
It will run on either DC or AC

The unit was designed to run on a solar system to help cut the cost of the amount of green energy hardware needed.

They were able to, I think, it was something like 10,000$ savings in the solar panels and batteries equipment that would have been needed to power the less energy efficient unit.

If you can cut consumption as much as possible it will be cheaper to go solar or wind in that you don't need as much hardware.

Anyway it is another step that will help you to reduce the "overall" cost of solar energy or wind system.

If I had the money I would buy a unit in a heart beat.......

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by Munkey Boy

Can I ask that people who wish to debate politics take their argument to another thread please, there's more than 1 or 2 going. I had a quite legitimate question that's being drowned out, and I thought it was relatively in the spirit of this forum:

Are there any government backed schemes that people know about to reduce electricity consumption (solar panels, wind turbines etc) in the UK? It seems I'm inelgible for the ones I've seen so far because I'm not on income support... Even if the answer is that there aren't any, I'd like to know so I can stop looking. TIA to anyone who may take the time out for this.

I know one thing the energy Saving trust is a waste of time, I have no idea if they are government backed or not, a few years ago, I had a new central heating system fitted and sent them a email asking about the best settings, they said they would send me a pack, I heard nothing, which shows how interested they really are.

As for wind turbines and solar panels are they really worth going for? I know someone who fits solar panels in fact he owns a company that fit the panels and water systems, but they are pretty pricey and to be honest I am not sure if you would save much in the long term.

You would have thought that all new houses would be built with solar in, as it would not be as expensive.

The best way to find out if there are government schemes is to ask a government department and do a search on the net.

As for discussing politics, this is about politics in one way, as it is the government who is trying to live peoples lives.

[Corey USA]

If we choose to take "personal responsibility" Live by a "Moral and Ethical code that values all life" Lived a life free of "gluten", "greed", "only self interest", "doing harm both direct and indirect" etc. There would be no need for government to regulate us to prevent us from harming others intentionally or unintentionally. Since that is not the case the more the government enforces the regulations the better so long as the government is being fair and not favoring one party over the other like it does now.

Analogy Parents (government) need to tell the children( us) they had enough cookies for one day or the children will get sick.

In reality we do act like children in that we refuse to take personal responsibility etc.

The key with solar is in how it is made in that the Polychrystalline is used minimally since it is a scarce resource.

here are some links to different forms of solar
http://environment.about.com/gi/dyna...nanosolar.com/

http://www.copper.org/innovations/20...ar_energy.html

skip down to the solar power it shows that certain process when taking in the "total cost" can make a particular form more damaging to the environment than current methods.
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/r...hnologies.html

Basic info about the primary form of solar shows that we only have a limited supply of the crystal and why it is important to use the most efficient forms of process such as the nano version above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycrystalline_silicon

here is a posibility of becoming my fav of the current tech
http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/Spinoff2006/er_4.html