[robh2002]

Dear All,

Just thought some of you might want to know that John Lewis is selling very good CF lights at just 49 pence each. These are manufactured by Philips and come on instantly (well, I don't notice a time lag) and are very bright right from first switch on.

For those of you who have tried any from B&Q which are made by General Electric - it's no wonder you don't like CF bulbs as they really are very poor and in my opinion give CF bulbs a bad name. I've take a few back recently because they were so bad.

Try the Philips ones and at 49 pence, it's worth changing the whole house over as they will pay for themselves in no time at all at that price!

Cheers,
Rob.

[Corey USA]

I agree with the GE the thing about CF is looking for the lumen first and formost get the ones that are closest you the lumens of the bulbs you use now. then find the one with the lowest wattage draw second. "Soft white" or "true light" will help reduce the sharp steril feel of the light.
The GE bulbs I am using are only 300 lumens thus lower than what I am use to using. I do have to give it credit in that it gives off a nice warm yellowish glow which is great for lamps. Price was the main driver for getting them that low of lumens. I use this for general lighting where It is not critical to have good lighting. When cooking I use the philip versions that have the 500-800 lumens range for when I am cooking and using knives and such.

15 watts for the brighter
13 watts for the dimmer

[Nimby]

Do these Philips CF units have a particular product title to hep me recognise the real thing?

I agree completely with Rob's observations on the alternative makes.

[robh2002]

I have attached a picture of the packaging that the bulbs I bought come in. As I mentioned, these seem to be, by far, the best CF bulbs around. In fact I have banished from my house those inefficiency incandescent heaters, I mean lights. At just 49 pence, I even use them in the cupboard under the stairs...

I am also trying out some Luxeon LED lights and they seem pretty good, but very very expensive. Still, given they are unlikely to ever blow and their energy saving nature they will still end up being cheaper in the long run. Stupidly, I ended up with a cool blue one which really is not a great colour, but once I have tried the cool while ones, I'll post again and let you know what they are like.

Cheers,
Rob.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by robhowell

Dear All,

Just thought some of you might want to know that John Lewis is selling very good CF lights at just 49 pence each. These are manufactured by Philips and come on instantly (well, I don't notice a time lag) and are very bright right from first switch on.

For those of you who have tried any from B&Q which are made by General Electric - it's no wonder you don't like CF bulbs as they really are very poor and in my opinion give CF bulbs a bad name. I've take a few back recently because they were so bad.

Try the Philips ones and at 49 pence, it's worth changing the whole house over as they will pay for themselves in no time at all at that price!

Cheers,
Rob.

I have not seen a good CF light yet, our Morrisons are selling some that are cheap, but I doubt they are any good either, I will stick t my nice normal bright bulbs As for Philips, I would not touch anything from them with a barge pole,

I'll give them a try, last chance, so far I've put more of these useless "lights" in the bin than you can shake a stick at (cost savings?).

Otherwise it'll be a gross of proper lamps before they're banned.

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

As for Philips, I would not touch anything from them with a barge pole,

I think you ought to justify your comment if only to give us a jolly good reason to avoid them.

Had a Philips CRT TV that still works well. Not very happy with their pricey top of the line Toucam Webcams though. Both models stopped working and the software didn't like me at all.

Never tried their CF bulbs... yet.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by Nimby

I think you ought to justify your comment if only to give us a jolly good reason to avoid them.

Had a Philips CRT TV that still works well. Not very happy with their pricey top of the line Toucam Webcams though. Both models stopped working and the software didn't like me at all.

Never tried their CF bulbs... yet.

I had a Philips T.V, which broke down after 14months, the tuner went, I still use it, but without the tuner, it is only a portable. I had a Philips cassette deck that kept slowing down, that is now in land fill. I have a printer from phlips and to be honest it si a load of junk, that is not in use anymore, but since it is a fax machine as well, I may set it up for fax only, once I can afford the outrageous prices for the ink.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by stratagem

I'll give them a try, last chance, so far I've put more of these useless "lights" in the bin than you can shake a stick at (cost savings?).

Otherwise it'll be a gross of proper lamps before they're banned.

I am already buying a load of proper lamps as you put it, got over 100 now and I will keep buying them until I can't buy them any more, but nothing more have been said about the ban, so maybe it is not going to happen.

[robh2002]

In an effort to provide evidence for people to help them make up their own mind about CF bulbs, I have been doing some testing. Presumably the Daily Mail readers will never change their selfish habits, but at least I can try to provide some more information...

I tested three makes of bulbs; Philips, Ikea and B&Q with different power/light ratings. I used an off the shelf power meter plugged into a table lamp and used this lamp with different bulbs to measure the power consumption of each lamp over the course of a few minutes. I did this a number of times for each bulb. This is an attempt to measure the start-up power consumption that some people use and excuse for not wanting to use CF bulbs. Clearly this is not the most scientific experiment, because my power meter does not sample as fast as I would like. It seems to sample at around 2Hz which is enough to let us get some useful results.

The results show that the Ikea and B&Q bulbs do indeed use more power on start up - about 30% more, for example, a 6W bulb uses 9W on start-up BUT ONLY FOR ABOUT ONE to TWO SECONDS AT MOST. Interestingly, I could not measure any additional power draw from the Philips bulbs; my 18W bulb drew only 18W from switch-on. It may well draw more power, but for much less than 0.5 of a second.

This shows that, depending on the bulb, some (and only some) draw additional power at start up. However, even considering this fact, the bulbs tested draw SIGNIFICANTLY less than a normal bulb does of the same light output.

My conclusion: even when using a CF bulb for just a few seconds, it will still use less energy (power x time) than a incandescent bulb of the same light output.

[njp]

Originally Posted by robhowell

I tested three makes of bulbs; Philips, Ikea and B&Q with different power/light ratings.

As a matter of interest, do you think you could post the power factor readings for the different makes?

Originally Posted by robhowell

In an effort to provide evidence for people to help them make up their own mind about CF bulbs, I have been doing some testing. Presumably the Daily Mail readers will never change their selfish habits, but at least I can try to provide some more information...

I tested three makes of bulbs; Philips, Ikea and B&Q with different power/light ratings. I used an off the shelf power meter plugged into a table lamp and used this lamp with different bulbs to measure the power consumption of each lamp over the course of a few minutes. I did this a number of times for each bulb. This is an attempt to measure the start-up power consumption that some people use and excuse for not wanting to use CF bulbs. Clearly this is not the most scientific experiment, because my power meter does not sample as fast as I would like. It seems to sample at around 2Hz which is enough to let us get some useful results.

The results show that the Ikea and B&Q bulbs do indeed use more power on start up - about 30% more, for example, a 6W bulb uses 9W on start-up BUT ONLY FOR ABOUT ONE to TWO SECONDS AT MOST. Interestingly, I could not measure any additional power draw from the Philips bulbs; my 18W bulb drew only 18W from switch-on. It may well draw more power, but for much less than 0.5 of a second.

This shows that, depending on the bulb, some (and only some) draw additional power at start up. However, even considering this fact, the bulbs tested draw SIGNIFICANTLY less than a normal bulb does of the same light output.

My conclusion: even when using a CF bulb for just a few seconds, it will still use less energy (power x time) than a incandescent bulb of the same light output.

Excellent. Did you by any chance put your readings into a document or spreadsheet? If so, I'd love a copy. Which meter did you use?

[robh2002]

Am at work at present - I'll post data tonight. Not sure about the power meter make, but I will post those details later as well.

I clearly can't do percentages - going from 6W to 9W is a 50% increase. Doh!

Who cares what energy they take on start up? not me that's for sure, I only care about the dismal quality of light they produce and the complete lack of flexibilty, no dimming, no occupancy sensors, etc.

I now have only one room with these fitted, a triple fitting with 3 x 18W (54W), just about OK, anything less than this I find hopeless.

I have now bought and binned 12 of these lamps, I think that is enough effort and cost on my part to be accepted as trying them.

Originally Posted by stratagem

Who cares what energy they take on start up? not me that's for sure, I only care about the dismal quality of light they produce and the complete lack of flexibilty, no dimming, no occupancy sensors, etc.

The issue is that some have claimed that the initial energy use is much higher than the nominal rating, suggesting that they are therefore less efficient than claimed.

I now have only one room with these fitted, a triple fitting with 3 x 18W (54W), just about OK, anything less than this I find hopeless.

I have now bought and binned 12 of these lamps, I think that is enough effort and cost on my part to be accepted as trying them.

Fair enough, if you you don't like them then don't use them, or give them away.

I bought my first CFLs many years ago. They have varied a lot in both performance and longevity, but they have easily paid for themselves.

I'm not sure but I think there might be some now that can be used with dimmers.

Originally Posted by robhowell

Am at work at present - I'll post data tonight. Not sure about the power meter make, but I will post those details later as well.

I clearly can't do percentages - going from 6W to 9W is a 50% increase. Doh!

Thanks. The % mistake is an easy one to make. 9 is 50% more than 6 but 6 is 33% less than 9.

[njp]

Originally Posted by nikyzf

I'm not sure but I think there might be some now that can be used with dimmers.

There are, although I'm not sure how acceptable they are in use. The ones I've read about gave a stepped response with a fairly small number of discrete levels rather than being continuously variable. Any dimming solution for CFL's will also require a minimum discharge current to flow, so it won't be possible to dim them below a certain level.

Another reason to look forward to ubiquitous LED lighting.

Originally Posted by robhowell

In an effort to provide evidence for people to help them make up their own mind about CF bulbs, I have been doing some testing. Presumably the Daily Mail readers will never change their selfish habits, but at least I can try to provide some more information...

That's 2.3 million people with selfish habits? presumably you've heard some politcian say that.

Originally Posted by njp

There are, although I'm not sure how acceptable they are in use. The ones I've read about gave a stepped response with a fairly small number of discrete levels rather than being continuously variable. Any dimming solution for CFL's will also require a minimum discharge current to flow, so it won't be possible to dim them below a certain level.

Another reason to look forward to ubiquitous LED lighting.

Plus I have yet to find one that is bright enough to dim.

[robh2002]

Very good - I like that:

"not bright enough to dim"

I've found the Luxeon based bulbs to be OK in terms of brightness, but that's another story. Also, not sure of the units for OK brightness - OK, not a great joke.

Still at work, will post data tonight...

Originally Posted by robhowell

I've found the Luxeon based bulbs to be OK in terms of brightness, but that's another story. Also, not sure of the units for OK brightness - OK, not a great joke.

I persevered with the scientific part of my brain matching incandescent against CF, using Lumens as a level of brightness.

However the "this is the real world" part of my brain clearly says the CF's are much dimmer.

So, the "OK" measurement of brightness is fine with me.

Originally Posted by stratagem

I persevered with the scientific part of my brain matching incandescent against CF, using Lumens as a level of brightness.

However the "this is the real world" part of my brain clearly says the CF's are much dimmer.

So, the "OK" measurement of brightness is fine with me.

That makes sense. Some of them take a while to reach full brightness from switch-on and some start to lose their full brightness after a few months, so the lumens rating can be misleading. I still find them OK though.

Originally Posted by nikyzf

That makes sense. Some of them take a while to reach full brightness from switch-on and some start to lose their full brightness after a few months, so the lumens rating can be misleading. I still find them OK though.

To me it's more than this, after say 2 hours on they are still dimmer.

I have even photographed them and measured the light intensity in Photoshop, and technically they are similar, yet to me they are much dimmer.

I am familiar with colour temperatures and so on.

I can only think it is something to do with the spectrum.

[njp]

Originally Posted by stratagem

I can only think it is something to do with the spectrum.

Discharge tubes do emit a broken spectrum, so perhaps you are sensitive to this in some way - but I am surprised this should manifest as a perception that the source is dimmer. The obvious question then is what happens if you over-compensate by using a CFL with a much higher lumen output than the incandescent bulb it is replacing?

I think I mentioned, I have acheived this in one room using a triple 18W (54W) which to me is a little brighter than 1 x 60W.

The example is, I can read a book with a 60W, I can read a book with 3 x 18W, but not very well with 2 x 18W, and not at all with 1 x 18W.

Bearing in mind a single 15W is supposed to equal an 60W.

[robh2002]

OK, here is the data. I seem to have got a bit confused with the bulb manufacturers names, but here is the full data set. It was written down in a note pad so there is no spreadsheet available...

Data is:
Manufacturer:
Rated power, peak power (at switch-on), power after 1 minute

Philips:
8W, 9W, 9W
Philips:
11W, 12W, 12W
Philips:
14W, 17W, 17W
Philips:
18W, 19W, 19W
Morrisons
5W, 9W, 7W
Status (I think this is an old Ikea bulb, but perhaps not)
7W, 9-11W, 9W.
Ikea (candle type)
5W, 13W, 7W

Note that the Philips bulbs came on instantly (as far as I could tell) and the others had a slight delay. The worst in terms of delay and initial brightness was the Ikea one - by far! Truly crappy, but it's used for a bed side light so it doesn't matter. I would estimate these have a 1 to 2 second delay! I have an Ikea ceiling light (I couldn't test) which also has a 1-2 second delay and are initially very dim.

The power meter (as mentioned, only an off the shelf unit) is made by Brennenstuhl, model PM230. It is *clearly* not designed for for monitoring transients in electrical power but it serves to give us a idea of power consumption at switch on and after a few minutes. All the bulbs were allowed to cool (after all even CF bulbs get warm) before consecutive readings were taken. Multiple readings were taken and bulbs measured in random orders - sort of.

So as far as I can tell, the idea that CF bulbs take large amounts of power at switch on is clearly wrong. Even if there is a huge power surge it would only last for a very, very short time and so not use much energy at all.

As for these bulbs being dimmer than others, I cannot say I have noticed - I can only suggest, if you use a 100W bulb, buy the equivalent of a 120W CF bulb. I must be living in a cave compared to some of you guys (!) as I use only an 18W CF bulb for a 4m x 5m room and it seems fine to me.

I have to say that it really annoys me that the likes of Ikea and B&Q, for that matter, sell such poor bulbs and at such inflated prices. It give the bulbs a bad name. So there we go - remember John Lewis sell these rather good bulbs for just 49p.

Rob

PS I don't work for Philips or John Lewis!

[njp]

Originally Posted by stratagem

I think I mentioned, I have acheived this in one room using a triple 18W (54W) which to me is a little brighter than 1 x 60W.

The example is, I can read a book with a 60W, I can read a book with 3 x 18W, but not very well with 2 x 18W, and not at all with 1 x 18W.

Bearing in mind a single 15W is supposed to equal an 60W.

You seem to be highly unusual!

[njp]

Originally Posted by robhowell

The power meter (as mentioned, only an off the shelf unit) is made by Brennenstuhl, model PM230.

Does it report power factor? I'm interested in how close to unity any of these designs get.

So as far as I can tell, the idea that CF bulbs take large amounts of power at switch on is clearly wrong. Even if there is a huge power surge it would only last for a very, very short time and so not use much energy at all.

That was the conclusion of some findings I reported here a while back. The break-even point for CFLs is a very small period of time, and not even worth considering. Even for conventional fluorescent tubes it's only 20 seconds or so, as opposed to the many minutes of popular imagination.

Good point about the inferior bulbs on the market. I think this is a real problem for the consumer; whereas one tungsten bulb performs pretty much the same as any other, CFL's vary hugely in colour temperature, lumen/watt efficiency, warm-up time, and longevity.

[robh2002]

Sorry, when you asked for power factor, I kind of thought you meant peak power to longer term average power ratio...not actual power factor!

Anyway, I've measured a few and they range from 0.96 to 0.99. The lower ones are the Philips bulbs and the higher one the Morrisons bulb.

Hope that helps.

Rob.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by robhowell

In an effort to provide evidence for people to help them make up their own mind about CF bulbs, I have been doing some testing. Presumably the Daily Mail readers will never change their selfish habits, but at least I can try to provide some more information...

This shows that, depending on the bulb, some (and only some) draw additional power at start up. However, even considering this fact, the bulbs tested draw SIGNIFICANTLY less than a normal bulb does of the same light output.

My conclusion: even when using a CF bulb for just a few seconds, it will still use less energy (power x time) than a incandescent bulb of the same light output.

Why is it that when ever people disagree about things that they tend to be called Daily mail readers? I don't read the Daily mail unless it is on the table in the canteen and there is nothing else to read, but at least it is better than the Sun , Mirror and star. I never buy newspapers, Also why am I being selfish, considering that I pay my electricity bill, If you ever pay my bill, then you will have the right to tell me how much electricity to use. I am fed up with people trying to tell me how to run my life, what to use and what not to use.

Test all you like, but it will not make me change my mind, my problem with these Low energy bulbs is that they are so dull, nothing to do with how much power they use or don't use.

The more this government and other people tell me to use less, the more power I will use, because I do not take kindly with being told how to run my life.