[Corey USA]

Dear corey,

While we pay high gas prices at the pump, ExxonMobil just announced yet another quarter of staggering profits of $10.26 billion.

Will you help us seize this opportunity to spread the word that ExxonMobil is still using its massive profits to fund global warming denial groups?

Click here to write a letter to the editor of your local paper in time for ExxonMobil's July 26th quarterly profits announcement.

In response to our efforts, ExxonMobil cut nearly 40% of its annual budget to global warming denier groups last year. Exxon has told reporters that it's no longer funding these groups when in reality 60% of their funding is still in place!

Widespread publicity has pushed ExxonMobil to say that it is currently evaluating its continued funding of global warming denier groups. Sending a letter to the editor today could make a big difference. More publicity on this underhanded tactic to block action on global warming will help Exxon make its decision!

That's why we need YOUR help to shine a spotlight on ExxonMobil's continued funding of global warming denier groups. Make a big difference today by sending a letter to the editor now.

ExxonMobil is the only oil giant directly funding groups who mislead the public and policy makers about the threat of global warming. The groups are now suffering a financial set-back, and that's good news for those of us who care about global warming and renewable energy!

It's been two years since the launch of the Exxpose Exxon campaign and thanks to you we have accomplished a great deal. Click here to see a list of all our actions and achievements so far which have helped educate Congress, influence the press and ultimately push ExxonMobil to rethink its policies.

Nothing we've accomplished would have been possible without your help.

Thank you again!


Shawnee Hoover
Campaign Director, Exxpose Exxon
info@exxposeexxon.com

this is the Accomplishments of the Green movement regarding exxon
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/highlights.html

note the list of groups that is driving this
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/about_us/

<-----here is a punch at capitalism and its think on efficiency and environmentalism---->
keep in mind I am not bashing them they are doing this to them selves. I am simply sharing info to educate about capitalism in general and its impact on the environment.
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/newsroom/exxonprofits.html

Advertisement #1
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/facts/ta...ionbelgium.pdf

Advertisement # 2
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/facts/va...orkbelgium.pdf

reality about the above advertisement.
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/newsroom/foei.html

[scarty16]

correct me if I am wrong but on at least 2 separate occasions in teh past the planet has had almost all life wiped out and it appears to have recovered quite nicely.

I doubt there is anything that we could do to this planet that it wouldn't survive given enough time.

[njp]

Originally Posted by scarty16

correct me if I am wrong but on at least 2 separate occasions in teh past the planet has had almost all life wiped out and it appears to have recovered quite nicely.

I doubt there is anything that we could do to this planet that it wouldn't survive given enough time.

There have been at least 5 mass extinctions in Earth's history. And how you see them rather depends on your point of view (history, as they say, is always written by the victors). So the Permian-Triassic extinction would probably not have been viewed favourably by the 95% of species it wiped out. On the other hand, mass extinctions give opportunities for other species to flourish - including ours. So the planet will indeed recover from anything we can do to it, but not necessarily in a way that is comfortable for us.

So what exactly was the point you were trying to make?

[Nimby]

I believe I see behavioral patterns from before the last extinction in some of our forum members. "Cuddly" does not quite spring to mind. I don't doubt for a moment there are those here with an income from spreading doubt as to MMGW. "Burning" Bush had no problem with distributing his clones and sleepers far and wide throughout the US judicial system. I use the latter term loosely in the US context, of course.

[Steve.J.Davies]

I am happy to corrected by the OP but I read it as.
The "Save the planet" mantra is wrong and misleading.

Or course without mass extinctions (e.g.permian) it is arguable that homo sapiens would not have developed at all - and many other species. So many many life forms now should be extremely grateful for the past extinctions - including all the posters here.

IIRC over 90 percent of all the species that ever existed are extinct - it is the natural order of things. It seems only mankind, and a subset at that, believes it has a divine right to exist.

When people cry "Save the Planet" - they really mean " Save ME !l"

not being nihilistic or fatalistic here BTW

[Nimby]

You don't think of our grandchildren then?
What right do we have to screw up the planet for our offspring?
We are already depriving them of much fauna and flora which we have simply taken for granted.
Or rather ignored, as we allowed them to become extinct, in our viral population expansion.
Okay, let's ignore the condemnation of our own species for the moment.
What if (for arguments sake) an alien task force is on its way to save our world's creatures?
It takes them a finite time from first noticing our world's imminent peril to actually getting here with the orbiting arks/lifeboats.
What do we say when they finally turn up to save our once teeming world's last remaining wild species?
We tried one once with chips but didn't like it.

[Corey USA]

This isn't really about saving the planet it is about saving the human species from going extinct. It just so happens that in order to save this particular unappreciative species we need to save the planet for we are totally and completely depended on the planets stability to survive.

unappreciative species: I mean in regards to the human race as a whole not as individual people in that some individuals do care but are powerless due to sheer numbers.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by Corey USA

While we pay high gas prices at the pump,

You think you pay high gas prices in the states?

[blearyeyes]

Originally Posted by Corey USA

Dear corey,

While we pay high gas prices at the pump, ExxonMobil just announced yet another quarter of staggering profits of $10.26 billion.

Will you help us seize this opportunity to spread the word that ExxonMobil is still using its massive profits to fund global warming denial groups?

Click here to write a letter to the editor of your local paper in time for ExxonMobil's July 26th quarterly profits announcement.

In response to our efforts, ExxonMobil cut nearly 40% of its annual budget to global warming denier groups last year. Exxon has told reporters that it's no longer funding these groups when in reality 60% of their funding is still in place!

Widespread publicity has pushed ExxonMobil to say that it is currently evaluating its continued funding of global warming denier groups. Sending a letter to the editor today could make a big difference. More publicity on this underhanded tactic to block action on global warming will help Exxon make its decision!

That's why we need YOUR help to shine a spotlight on ExxonMobil's continued funding of global warming denier groups. Make a big difference today by sending a letter to the editor now.

ExxonMobil is the only oil giant directly funding groups who mislead the public and policy makers about the threat of global warming. The groups are now suffering a financial set-back, and that's good news for those of us who care about global warming and renewable energy!

It's been two years since the launch of the Exxpose Exxon campaign and thanks to you we have accomplished a great deal. Click here to see a list of all our actions and achievements so far which have helped educate Congress, influence the press and ultimately push ExxonMobil to rethink its policies.

Nothing we've accomplished would have been possible without your help.

Thank you again!


Shawnee Hoover
Campaign Director, Exxpose Exxon
info@exxposeexxon.com

this is the Accomplishments of the Green movement regarding exxon
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/highlights.html

note the list of groups that is driving this
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/about_us/

<-----here is a punch at capitalism and its think on efficiency and environmentalism---->
keep in mind I am not bashing them they are doing this to them selves. I am simply sharing info to educate about capitalism in general and its impact on the environment.
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/newsroom/exxonprofits.html

Advertisement #1
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/facts/ta...ionbelgium.pdf

Advertisement # 2
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/facts/va...orkbelgium.pdf

reality about the above advertisement.
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/newsroom/foei.html

For a minute there Corey, I thought you had written this rubbish!

[blearyeyes]

Originally Posted by Corey USA

This isn't really about saving the planet it is about saving the human species from going extinct. It just so happens that in order to save this particular unappreciative species we need to save the planet for we are totally and completely depended on the planets stability to survive.

unappreciative species: I mean in regards to the human race as a whole not as individual people in that some individuals do care but are powerless due to sheer numbers.

Which species are "appreciative" then? Do you honestly believe any other species is capable of making moral judgements? I think most just do what they have to to survive. Humans are no different.

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by blearyeyes

Which species are "appreciative" then? Do you honestly believe any other species is capable of making moral judgments? I think most just do what they have to to survive. Humans are no different.

Humans do usually have more choices than animals.
They have the unique ability to move to a better situation.
Or at least one less dangerous or demanding.
National borders can often limit the ability of humans to escape from danger.
Particularly if the danger comes from their own "leaders".
Topical examples include N. Korean miners in Siberian camps and Cuban sportsmen.
Human history suggests that movement is a major survival factor.

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

You think you pay high gas prices in the states?

Gas prices in the UK are amazing, I can’t believe how you guys even drive cars, gas here is so expensive.

Is this high price purposely done by your government to rake in more tax under the banner of Global Warming.

Some people I have spoken in the UK think it is but I am not sure how your tax and gas prices interact.

[dan54]

Originally Posted by Manhattan Mike

Gas prices in the UK are amazing, I can’t believe how you guys even drive cars, and it’s so high.

If this high price purposely done by your government to rake in more tax under the banner of Global Warming.

Some people I have spoken in the UK think it is but I am not sure how your tax and gas prices interact.

Amazingly its not done under the banner of global warming-its just tax full stop-around 80% of our PETROL price is tax,however quite a lot of people dont realise this and think the petrol companys are to blame for the high prices.Here in the UK we drive much smaller cars so it doesnt affect us as badly as you might think-still far too dear though.

[Stephen Wilde]

The UK pricing experience just shows how resilient the travel need is in the face of higher pricing.

People really do find personal door to door travel hugely more effective and palatable than anything that could ever be offerred by public transport.

The latter is only acceptable in small densely populated metropolitan areas or on specific long distance routes and is still an unpleasant and expensive experience.

Going back on topic does no one realise that one of the main beneficiaries of 'green' manipulation of oil supplies will be the oil Companies themselves ?

Oil itself will become ever more expensive and the politicians will throw some of the 'profit' which they extract from the people in the direction of the producers as a reward for cooperation.

The real issue is not the planet at all, if it was then the global population issue would have been paramount for decades. The real issue is how much cash can be extracted from people for the benefit of politicians, environmentalists and the energy producers. We have a cake and they want it. The fight is between them as to how big a share they each get. The planet is not their real concern because their financial interests are dependent on as many people as possible paying as much money as possible.

Corey has a dim view of capitalism. Does he not realise that anthropogenic warming enthusiasts are as much a part of the capitalist system as anyone else and have their own interests at heart in everything they do ?

Population is key but if we enter an era of declining world population those who tax us will lose out more than anyone else because they will have to come to terms with a steadily shrinking potential tax take instead of the current rapidly increasing one. Even stable population will scupper their expansionist ambitions.

Everyone who purports to rule us and tell us what we should be doing has a vested interest in more people and more taxes and to hell with the planet.

Those on this board who think the answer lies in more control, direction, regulation, and taxation without population control are either stupid or evil and more likely both.

It is nothing to do with our use of natural resources. The resources that are being fought for are the taxes that can be extracted without a violent reaction and the highest possible number of people able to pay them.

If it were about natural resources a different set of solutions would be appropriate and I have mentioned them in other threads.

[njp]

Originally Posted by Stephen Wilde

The UK pricing experience just shows how resilient the travel need is in the face of higher pricing.

Yes it is. Although "need" is often "want", which is not quite the same thing. And of course you have failed to adjust for inflation - if you had done that, you would have found that UK petrol prices are still lower (in real terms) than they were in the 1980's. In short, you have applied your normal level of attention to detail to the analysis.

Going back on topic does no one realise that one of the main beneficiaries of 'green' manipulation of oil supplies will be the oil Companies themselves ?

Oil itself will become ever more expensive and the politicians will throw some of the 'profit' which they extract from the people in the direction of the producers as a reward for cooperation.

As with the upward trend in global mean temperature (which you deny), the upward trend in oil prices will continue, regardless of the taxation policy applied. That's because it will become increasingly difficult and expensive to extract the dwindling reserves. Oil is a finite resource, however much you wish it not to be. Current rates of consumption are unsustainable.

The real issue is not the planet at all, if it was then the global population issue would have been paramount for decades. The real issue is how much cash can be extracted from people for the benefit of politicians, environmentalists and the energy producers.

The real issue is your deluded attachment to conspiracy theories:

Those on this board who think the answer lies in more control, direction, regulation, and taxation without population control are either stupid or evil and more likely both.

It is nothing to do with our use of natural resources. The resources that are being fought for are the taxes that can be extracted without a violent reaction and the highest possible number of people able to pay them.

If it were about natural resources a different set of solutions would be appropriate and I have mentioned them in other threads.

I must have missed those solutions. Perhaps a brief recap is in order.

Originally Posted by Stephen Wilde

The UK pricing experience just shows how resilient the travel need is in the face of higher pricing.

This is what I have been told by you guys here in the UK. Gas prices have gone through the roof in the last 5 years or so but people still need to drive and no matter how high they rise people still need their cars.

I still find it hard to believe that the high prices has nothing to do with global warming taxes. Many people think your goverment is trying to price people off the road (to save the environment on all accounts) so by raising the price of gas so high is that in some way not a global warming tax?.

Since living part time in the UK I have bought a very small car to enable me to get around and to keep off your dreadful public transport system.
But the cost of gas is so high I am starting to wonder if its worth it.

[Stephen Wilde]

njp,

The usual strategy of ignoring the substantive issue, taking points out of context and commenting on something not said as if that were a rebuttal and misrepresenting what I have said before. Seasoned with a bit of ad hominem insulting just to help you to feel superior.

[njp]

Originally Posted by Stephen Wilde

njp,
The usual strategy of ignoring the substantive issue, taking points out of context and commenting on something not said as if that were a rebuttal and misrepresenting what I have said before. Seasoned with a bit of ad hominem insulting just to help you to feel superior.

The ad hominem accusation slips so easily from the lips of the denial lobby, doesn't it? Not that they are ever averse to deploying a few of their own, of course:

Originally Posted by Stephen Wilde

Corey has a dim view of capitalism. Does he not realise that anthropogenic warming enthusiasts are as much a part of the capitalist system as anyone else and have their own interests at heart in everything they do ?

Originally Posted by Stephen Wilde

Those on this board who think the answer lies in more control, direction, regulation, and taxation without population control are either stupid or evil and more likely both.

As for ignoring the "substantive issue", I've yet to discern what you think that is. You reject the science underpinning anthropogenic global warming, so you can't think that it's the need to reduce CO2 emissions.

As far as I can tell, you just think there are far too many people and Something Should Be Done about it.

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by Manhattan Mike

I still find it hard to believe that the high prices has nothing to do with global warming taxes. Many people think your goverment is trying to price people off the road (to save the environment on all accounts) so by raising the price of gas so high is that in some way not a global warming tax?.

Oh please! Any rise in tax and duty on petrol are completely transparent in this country (via something called a budget). If you have knowledge of some secret way that the government can inflate the tax/duty rate on petrol at the pumps without anyone realising then please let us know. We would be fascinated to learn of it and I guarantee that you would become a national hero overnight and the whole Global Warming debate would evaporate instantly as we saw what a government sponsored con it all is.
So bring it on, how can the government secretly fix the price of petrol?

(or are you still trolling?)

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Oh please! Any rise in tax and duty on petrol are completely transparent in this country (via something called a budget).

I asked a simple question, I do not fully understand your rules and taxes here in the UK. People I have been talking to here in the UK do blame the government and have mentioned Global Warming as maybe a reason why. If you feel your views are in any way more valid then please tell me why.

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

(or are you still trolling?)

And if you or anyone else continues with this kind of crap to every post then I will have no other option then to report you. I will also not accept any anti American posts that have also been posted recently by various members. If you can not answer in a civil way then I would prefer it if you did not answer at all. My post regarding gas was aimed at people who maybe could give me a valid and sensible answer, which is something that you obviously do not have the ability to provide.

Either reply in a sensible way or do not reply at all. I understand you global warming supporters have some kind of image to keep up but this should not involve abuse.

A couple of people here have already confirmed that the Global Warming views expressed by a few individuals on this board do not represent the majority of the UK, My experiences of this country would also back that up.

[Nimby]

I wish you lot wouldn't be so parochial.
Do you think the UK alone suffers from high fuel prices?
Prices locally, here in northern Europe, closely mirror those of the UK.
You simply wouldn't believe what we pay for cars after import tax.
I believe the Toyota Prius costs around £43,000 in Denmark.
I heard only last week that Toyota dealers can't stock it due to very low demand.
But I digress...

Originally Posted by dan54

IMike,ignore the America bashing there are a lot of people here in the UK who have no problem with the USA.

I know that Dan, I have nothing but good things to say about the great brits that I have made friends with here in the UK.

In fact one is going to stay with me and my family in Manhattan in October so looking forward to showing him our great city, he cant wait and has always wanted to visit NYC.

And on your gas point, I would agree, most people in the UK are not sure why petrol is so high and natually blame your goverment.

[Nimby]

I think most Americans are just like most other people.

What I don't like is your political leaders.

(and the fact that you voted for them twice!)

Here ya go y'all:

Note Norway has the highest pump fuel prices yet is an oil producing nation.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/

Note US prices! Where's my Hummer?

[Zone]

Can we keep the thread on topic please, I've deleted most if not all reference to Top Gear as we've been there, done that and ended up closing it so lets not go down that route again.

Thanks

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by Nimby

I wish you lot wouldn't be so parochial.
Do you think the UK alone suffers from high fuel prices?
Prices locally, here in northern Europe, closely mirror those of the UK.
You simply wouldn't believe what we pay for cars after import tax.
I believe the Toyota Prius costs around £43,000 in Denmark.
I heard only last week that Toyota dealers can't stock it due to very low demand.
But I digress...

Mate, I couldn't give a stuff what things cost in Denmark, I don't live there.

[Corey USA]

Originally Posted by blearyeyes

Which species are "appreciative" then? Do you honestly believe any other species is capable of making moral judgements? I think most just do what they have to to survive. Humans are no different.

Most in the animal kingdom are appreciative the key is understanding there language by watching their body language.

The difference between them and us is they only take what is needed to survive, while co-existing with the environment. They never take more than necessity.

Humans on the other hand take more than necessity to survive. We actually manipulate the environment With total disregards to our ecosystem. We call it industrialization as an excuse to use more than we need to survive.

You obviously have not spent enough time around animals to observe their body language to recognize appreciation, sadness, happiness, anger, etc.

What do you call animals action? saving humans? Especially when they were not trained to? saving lives is a moral decision isn't it?

[Corey USA]

Originally Posted by Nimby

Humans do usually have more choices than animals.
They have the unique ability to move to a better situation.
Or at least one less dangerous or demanding.
National borders can often limit the ability of humans to escape from danger.
Particularly if the danger comes from their own "leaders".
Topical examples include N. Korean miners in Siberian camps and Cuban sportsmen.
Human history suggests that movement is a major survival factor.

With the human population where it is, it is now impossible to even get away.
At least not without the mersey of other humans which is more than inadiquate. So we now find ourselves in a situation that we have been forcing on the animal kingdom against its will. Their "will" is to survive, procreate, Live within there social structures.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by Corey USA

With the human population where it is, it is now impossible to even get away.
At least not without the mersey of other humans which is more than inadiquate. So we now find ourselves in a situation that we have been forcing on the animal kingdom against its will. Their "will" is to survive, procreate, Live within there social structures.

It appears that you thesis is that humanity is evil. Great.

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by Manhattan Mike

A couple of people here have already confirmed that the Global Warming views expressed by a few individuals on this board do not represent the majority of the UK.

Hey! Guess what Mike? People who have an interest in a subject now look for online forums to discuss or silently monitor discussion of their interests. I belong to over 50 groups (and forums) covering a whole range of my lifelong interests. I never had a chance to read about or directly discuss most of my interests with anybody else until I went online a few years ago now.

I have been interested in climate change since the 60s and have adjusted my life constructively to minimise my impact. It was horribly selfish really since I planned to save an absolute fortune on my heating and transport bills. Guess what? I did!

I also love the whole alternative technology thing so I'm terribly biased towards soft tech, appropriate technology, wind, wave, heatpump, storage, insulation, methane, strawbale, solar. etc.etc. My library supports my interest. Probably just as yours does since you are so interested in the subject.

Have you checked out the amazing wave power devices they are researching now? I watched a superb programme on France TV5 (satellite TV) on the subject only the other day. Great photography and lots of technical details. Very un-BBCish indeed! The French TV treat their viewers as adults.

Sadly there was absolutely no mention of Exxon involvement in the research. You'd think they would be covering their bases by now what with the global interest in the last oil dregs. Particularly now that India and China are competing for oil. Nobody would have given this oil a second look a decade or two ago. I imagine Exxon will go down with the ship when the last reserves are wasted in a military convoy guarding the last US president from fuel-less lynch mobs. Mad Max style!

I've never met anyone online [except trolls] who only ever post negative responses. They usually get banned on their first or second post since their agenda is so obvious to every member.

BTW: Why are you here?

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

Mate, I couldn't give a stuff what things cost in Denmark, I don't live there.

Despite rumours, the EU is alive and well, matey.

Our common geographical trading bond has halted our petty wars for over 60 years now.

I hope you weren't planning to start one all by yourself?

You and who's army?