[MikeTV]

Today is the day the UK implements the EC Directive on Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE).

Here's what the DTi had to say, when I inquired about whether shops themselves would be responsible for taking back WEEE:

"Under the Regulations, producers are required to take financial responsibility for the collection, treatment, recovery, recycling and environmentally sound disposal of WEEE from 1 July 2007.

You will be pleased to hear that the Directive requires distributors to provide facilities to their customers to return old electrical and electronic equipment free of charge from 1 July.

Distributors can join the Distributor Take-back Scheme operated by Valpak WEEE Retail Services Ltd which will support a network of collection facilities. Alternatively, distributors can offer in-store take-back, where consumers can bring back old equipment when they buy a buy a replacement item.

The WEEE Regulations do not place obligations on consumers to change their behaviour, as they will continue to dispose of WEEE in the way they currently do. Consumers will be encouraged from 1 July 2007 to discard WEEE separately from other household waste for environmental and resource efficiency benefits. We will be having a campaign to inform the public about this in the coming months when the system is in place.
Consumers may also continue donating useable electrical and electronic products to charitable organisations."

More information on the directive is available here:

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk...44663/1106248/

What you will notice soon is a price increase in all consumer electronics, to cover the contribution that manufacturers and distributers have to pay on a weight basis ( a kind of advance fine for disposal).
Consumers can dump old products in the same way but for busineses it gets a bit more complicated.

[njp]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Consumers may also continue donating useable electrical and electronic products to charitable organisations.

Can they? A lot of charitable organisations specifically decline them, presumably on the grounds that they might be held liable if such products are faulty and cause death or injury...

From an e-tailors perspective you can either pack it carefully take it down to the Post Office, queue up and pay the postage to ship it back to us, or sling it in the bin.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stratagem

From an e-tailors perspective you can either pack it carefully take it down to the Post Office, queue up and pay the postage to ship it back to us, or sling it in the bin.

"the Directive requires distributors to provide facilities to their customers to return old electrical and electronic equipment free of charge"

I'm not sure if this means the e-shops have to pay the postage - it's an interesting question.

[MikeTV]

I am tempted to walk into my local Argos with my old iron (because the recycle collectors won't take it). After all, I did buy a replacment from them. I wonder what Argos would do...

Originally Posted by MikeTV

I am tempted to walk into my local Argos with my old iron (because the recycle collectors won't take it). After all, I did buy a replacment from them. I wonder what Argos would do...

I guess you would need to prove you bought it from them today.

Underneath all of this are all kinds of extra taxes, all carrying VAT, it will cost the retailers a great deal more money than originally forecast, so as I stated earlier expect price increases and smaller retailers that often provide specialist products and better service to find things even harder to compete with the big chains.

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by stratagem

I guess you would need to prove you bought it from them today.

Underneath all of this are all kinds of extra taxes, all carrying VAT, it will cost the retailers a great deal more money than originally forecast, so as I stated earlier expect price increases and smaller retailers that often provide specialist products and better service to find things even harder to compete with the big chains.

If its anything like France, you'll hardly notice. Typically (these figures from the France Loisirs, spring 2007 catalogue):

Portable DVD player 79.90 euros, 'Eco participation' 15 centimes
MP3 MP4 player 76.90 euros, Eco 3 (three) centimes
DVD player/recorder, 129 euros Eco 30 centimes.

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

If its anything like France, you'll hardly notice. Typically (these figures from the France Loisirs, spring 2007 catalogue):

Not unusually, the UK has devised a much more complicated and expensive process than France, our costs will therefore be considerably higher.

And of course in fine old UK tradition there is VAT on the tax, and thinking about it as the price is bundled up there will be VAT on the tax and the VAT (tax on tax on tax). Is that right?

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stratagem

Not unusually, the UK has devised a much more complicated and expensive process than France, our costs will therefore be considerably higher.

And of course in fine old UK tradition there is VAT on the tax, and thinking about it as the price is bundled up there will be VAT on the tax and the VAT (tax on tax on tax). Is that right?

That's not right. Firstly it is a fee (for recycling), and not a tax. Secondly, you are only charged VAT once (at the point of final sale).

The French system seems far more complicated to me - requiring every retailor to display the fee explicitly at the point of purchase. What an upheaval for any business.

In the UK, any distributor selling a £100K-£1.5m worth of items will have to pay a £750 fee annually. That seems pretty simple to me.

[blearyeyes]

The usual anti-business, pro-greenie PC EU laws!! Of course the price of electrical goods will go up. And once the EU introduces its threatened punative import duties on Chinese goods because they won't comply with Koyoto, we can all kiss goodbye to the era of cheaper living. The rest of the world must be splitting their sides at the lunatic antics we go through to 'save the planet'

Originally Posted by MikeTV

That's not right. Firstly it is a fee (for recycling), and not a tax. Secondly, you are only charged VAT once (at the point of final sale).

The French system seems far more complicated to me - requiring every retailor to display the fee explicitly at the point of purchase. What an upheaval for any business.

In the UK, any distributor selling a £100K-£1.5m worth of items will have to pay a £750 fee annually. That seems pretty simple to me.

Yes it's called a fee so that the UK can tax it, please check your dictionary for the term tax and see if it fits.

The french just add a simple sales tax, whats hard about that?

More like £1500 + VAT to join the club, + £150 per ton, + cost of recovery, + costs of extra administration, submitting and maintaining records for 4 years on each item, +++.

If it's just to save the planet, why add VAT?, bear in mind I get this back but you don't.

Originally Posted by blearyeyes

The usual anti-business, pro-greenie PC EU laws!! Of course the price of electrical goods will go up. And once the EU introduces its threatened punative import duties on Chinese goods because they won't comply with Koyoto, we can all kiss goodbye to the era of cheaper living. The rest of the world must be splitting their sides at the lunatic antics we go through to 'save the planet'

On the button, we'll just have the big companies selling what they want at whatever price they want once us small guys are forced out of business.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stratagem

Yes it's called a fee so that the UK can tax it, please check your dictionary for the term tax and see if it fits.

Tax is collected by the treasury, so no, it's not a tax.

The french just add a simple sales tax, whats hard about that?

What? An update to every POS system in the world with product specific fees, by every company that wants to sell to the French? No, not complicated at all!! I'm surprised anyone bothers to sell to the French at all, frankly (in fact, many companies don't bother). The same is true in Ireland.

If it's just to save the planet, why add VAT?, bear in mind I get this back but you don't.

I have no strong opinions about whether it should attract VAT or not, actually. The WEEE fee is a fixed amount, irrespective of the amount of items sold. It is another cost of sale, like any other, so on that basis, it should attract VAT.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by blearyeyes

The usual anti-business, pro-greenie PC EU laws!! Of course the price of electrical goods will go up. And once the EU introduces its threatened punative import duties on Chinese goods because they won't comply with Koyoto, we can all kiss goodbye to the era of cheaper living. The rest of the world must be splitting their sides at the lunatic antics we go through to 'save the planet'

It's not anti-business, it's pro-ethical business. The producers that make their products more recycleable will incur lower costs, and hence be more competitive. But I can see how people who have a "to hell with the consequences" attitude to consumerism, might find it dislikeable.

It's good that Europe, given it's high consumption, is finally doing something about it (as are many other countries). It affects all producers, the world over, so nobody is laughing about it.

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Tax is collected by the treasury, so no, it's not a tax.

Main Entry: 2tax
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
1 a : a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes b : a sum levied on members of an organization to defray expenses
2 : a heavy demand

To me it fits.

What? An update to every POS system in the world with product specific fees, by every company that wants to sell to the French? No, not complicated at all!! I'm surprised anyone bothers to sell to the French at all, frankly (in fact, many companies don't bother). The same is true in Ireland.

Not quite sure what you mean here, when the US for instance sell to the french nothing has changed, only the French need to add the tax.

I have no strong opinions about whether it should attract VAT or not, actually. The WEEE fee is a fixed amount, irrespective of the amount of items sold. It is another cost of sale, like any other, so on that basis, it should attract VAT

The WEEE fee is not a simple fixed amount, as previously stated, we have to calculate the fee by the weight of each product, the £1500 or whatever is just to join the club.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stratagem

Not quite sure what you mean here, when the US for instance sell to the french nothing has changed, only the French need to add the tax.

Not true. If a US producer wishes to sell "EEE" in France, they have to charge WEEE fees. Otherwise they are breaking French law. It's just like VAT in that way.

Originally Posted by stratagem

The WEEE fee is not a simple fixed amount, as previously stated, we have to calculate the fee by the weight of each product, the £1500 or whatever is just to join the club.

My understanding is that distributors either join a distributor take-back scheme, or accept WEEE in store. The distributor is responsible for all costs associated with the transportation of the WEEE but not for the cost of treatment, reprocessing or recovery (which is the producer's responsibility). I don't understand - where does the weight of each product come into it?

Not true. If a US producer wishes to sell "EEE" in France, they have to charge WEEE fees. Otherwise they are breaking French law. It's just like VAT in that way.

You understand little about business, if you buy a product from outside of the EU the importer will charge you VAT, not the company, unless the company is also the importer. So if you buy a load of widgets from the US you wont pay VAT, they ship to you via say Fedex and Fedex receive it and charge you VAT on landing in the UK.
WEEE is much the same, its an EU tax, the rest of the world doesn't care less about it, if I buy from China to sell to you I become the producer because I am in Europe.

My understanding is that distributors either join a distributor take-back scheme, or accept WEEE in store. The distributor is responsible for all costs associated with the transportation of the WEEE but not for the cost of treatment, reprocessing or recovery (which is the producer's responsibility). I don't understand - where does the weight of each product come into it?

How do you think you attribute the fee to each item then?

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stratagem

You understand little about business, if you buy a product from outside of the EU the importer will charge you VAT, not the company, unless the company is also the importer. So if you buy a load of widgets from the US you wont pay VAT, they ship to you via say Fedex and Fedex receive it and charge you VAT on landing in the UK.

If you buy a from a producer like say Dell, in the UK, they charge you VAT, irrespective of where the components were actually manufactured. If you import products, and sell them, you are required to charge VAT on those items.

If you buy a Dell in France, they charge you French WEEE. And that's the point.

WEEE is much the same, its an EU tax, the rest of the world doesn't care less about it, if I buy from China to sell to you I become the producer because I am in Europe.

How do you think you attribute the fee to each item then?

If you simply buy in China, and sell in the UK, you are the importer, not the producer. If you add product value (eg. assembly), you are the end producer, and responsible for the recycling. You should source recyclable parts, to minimise these costs. Producers like Dell, are responsible for the cost of recycling - irrespective of whether they source their parts from China.

Originally Posted by MikeTV

If you buy a from a producer like say Dell, in the UK, they charge you VAT, irrespective of where the components were actually manufactured. If you import products, and sell them, you are required to charge VAT on those items.

Amazingly obvious, but as I stated, if I buy a computer in the US, I do not pay the VAT to the US company as you said, I pay the VAT to the importer when it arrives in the UK, then add VAT to sell to the UK.

If you buy a Dell in France, they charge you French WEEE. And that's the point.

Also amazingly obvious, so where does (according to your previous post) changing the worlds POS terminals to suit the French WEEE come into it?

If you simply buy in China, and sell in the UK, you are the importer, not the producer. If you add product value (eg. assembly), you are the end producer, and responsible for the recycling. You should source recyclable parts, to minimise these costs. Producers like Dell, are responsible for the cost of recycling - irrespective of whether they source their parts from China.

Extract:

A producer is any business that:

• manufactures and sells electrical and electronic equipment (EEE) under their own brand
  
• resells under their own brand equipment produced by others

or

• imports electrical and electronic equipment (EEE)

[damo_in_sale]

Is everybody happy then with foreigners creating laws on our behalf?

I say it like it is

You may have guessed, I'm not, first thing I do each day is to see what new laws and taxes we have been blessed with.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stratagem

Amazingly obvious, but as I stated, if I buy a computer in the US, I do not pay the VAT to the US company as you said, I pay the VAT to the importer when it arrives in the UK, then add VAT to sell to the UK.

That's becauase you're based in the UK. We are talking producers abroad. They have to charge WEEE if selling in France. Like Dell does.

Also amazingly obvious, so where does (according to your previous post) changing the worlds POS terminals to suit the French WEEE come into it?

International manufacturers who sell in France have to update their POS systems and charge WEEE. I can't make it any clearer. That's the law.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

Is everybody happy then with foreigners creating laws on our behalf?

I say it like it is

Who are these foreigners? These are UK laws.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by stratagem

You may have guessed, I'm not, first thing I do each day is to see what new laws and taxes we have been blessed with.

Me neither mate.

The bizarre thing is that the very people who would defend such an undemocratic monstrosity as the EU also claim to care deeply about poor people in the third world.

If it wasn’t so truly, hideously tragic I would laugh my ass off at the irony.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Who are these foreigners? These are UK laws.

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Today is the day the UK implements the EC Directive on Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE).

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

Let's leave the EU debate for another occasion.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Let's leave the EU debate for another occasion.

No, it's integral to the debate.

Your very first line in opening this thread was...

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Today is the day the UK implements the EC Directive on Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE).

Originally Posted by MikeTV

That's becauase you're based in the UK. We are talking producers abroad. They have to charge WEEE if selling in France. Like Dell does.

I think you'll find that Dell and other giant multi-nationals didn't have too much of a problem in that, (its been in place for some time there), the point I was trying to get across from day 1 was how it effects small businesses. I for instance buy in US and China, and sell to UK and Europe, including France, Spain, Italy etc. If you remember Europe is supposed to be free trade.

International manufacturers who sell in France have to update their POS systems and charge WEEE. I can't make it any clearer. That's the law.

If it's operating in France, of course, just normal business, if it's outside of Europe do you think it will collect the French tax and pass it back to the French, and of course each European country has its own different way of handling it, some on import, some on sales.

[MikeTV]

I don't mean to come across as the defender of WEEE! I agree that it's crazy that each EU country has it's own unique approach to it. I just think the UK system seems simpler than the French. But maybe I am wrong about that.