[dekoded]

Having an interest in both climate change and the events of 911, including the 'real' reasons for the 'attacks', when a friend told me about 'Oil Smoke & Mirrors', a video available to watch on google videos I watched it that same night!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...+smoke+mirrors

As explained in the film, the reason this isn't being talked about is because nobody has an answer to the problem.

[njp]

It started off ok. You can argue about the date at which oil production will peak, but that it will peak is undeniable, and that has major implications for the future of mankind.

But it quickly descended into 9/11 conspiracy territory, and I lost interest. I'm cynical enough about Bush/Blair's motives for invading Iraq, but I don't accept that 9/11 itself was an inside job. My BS detector moves into overdrive when people start talking about how the buildings couldn't have collapsed as they did without the use of thermite...

[dekoded]

I agree that it does change from being about the facts of oil production to more of a 911 conspiracy half way through.

However I have watched half a dozen or so 911 conspiracy videos and whilst some of the theories seem far fetched alot of them make a great deal of sense.

911 In Plane Site

Loose change

911 mysteries

The Great Conspiracy-The 9-11 News Special You Never Saw

Painful deceptions

All the above videos raise many of valid points, especially regarding the 'collapse' of WTC building 7, personally I'm undecided about what happened that day, however 'Oil smoke and mirrors' provides the most convincing argument for 911 to be more than a terrorist attack.

[johntheexpat]

http://www.peakoil.ie

Lots and lots about 'peak oil'

[dekoded]

Here is another site, however this one's slightly more extreme!

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

In fact I'm sure there are thousands of similar sites but most people aren't even aware of the problem, just like myself a few weeks ago!, so people don't look for them.

[toycollector]

Surely, their is an abundance of oil to find. The problem is,until barrel prices hit a certain point, it is uneconomical to explore.

[Ed Selley]

Peak Oil has actually been pretty big news for some years now. Oddly its big news in the pure economics journals and then in the curious world of US blog culture with little in the middle. Perhaps the best compendium of Peak Oil info is Idleworm and those of you more interested in the actual number crunching of the figures (and Toycollector that's the more interesting bit regarding your comments) might want to look for the oil drum and the writings of the very clever James Howard Kunstler.

The big problem with Peak Oil is that the people reporting on it are broadly speaking very, very left indeed and its very hard to seperate their barely concealed wish for the worst to be true from the actual state of play.

But its a fascinating subject.

[dekoded]

It's probably best to assume the worst when it comes to the worlds fuel resources, we are all guilty of living unsustainable lifestyles so on that basis alone we should all try and do something to help.

I have a terrible habit of leaving things on standby, mainly PC's, but that's probably because I'm very impatient!

Hopefully technology will help people use less energy, for example when hard drives are replaced with flash memory there will be virtually no boot times for PC's, even something as simple as this could save massive amounts of energy as people will be able to power down devices without the need to wait for them to become usable again.

We all have so little spare time nowadays that even a few mins waiting for devices to become ready seem unacceptable.

[Black 5]

Well, I can't say our household has a light carbon footprint (4 cars, etc) but it certainly has less of one now than it did a couple of months ago.

I decided I would be happy to make changes that didn't affect my lifestyle and have been surprised how easy it has been.
Now, lights are off when nobody's in the room, exterior lights are off altogether unless there's something special going on, I've cut out four return home to work journeys a week and just generally been more careful about energy usage. I still drive my sports car, have my home cinema on standby, etc and have no increase in aggravation to how we live.

Result? I've halved my electric bill in the quarter (like to like)! and saved one fill up at the garage every 6 weeks!!

So why not make an effort?

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2636#comments

Then there's the Olduvai Theory, an interesting if pessimistic idea.
http://dieoff.org/page224.htm
The "cliff" is the final interval in the Olduvai schema. It begins with the 7th event in 2012 (Note 7) when an epidemic of permanent blackouts spreads worldwide, i.e. first there are waves of brownouts and temporary blackouts, then finally the electric power networks themselves expire. The 8th event in 2030 (Note 8) marks the fall of world energy production (use) per capita to the 1930 level (Figure 4). This is the lagging 30% point when Industrial Civilization has become history. The average rate of decline of ê is 5.44 %/year from 2012 to 2030.

[Corey USA]

The whole point about peak oil is that its finite and that "IT IS EXTREEMLY TOXIC TO THE ECOSYSTEM."
I wish I had the link, We already hit peak and Oil Production is now on the decline, this was based on actual counts of numbers of barrels of oil produced placed on a graph. then there is China's thirst for oil added to the equation and I have heard that they are set to exceed USA and UK combined.
Sorry the last statement is a rumor have have no proof as yet.

As far as the world trade center, if bin laden wanted to really shake the USA citizen's why did he hit it when there was only 3000 people instead of at peak population? Why the building that represented BIG BUSINESS rather than a CIVILIAN TARGET Like Mall OF America? Terrorist thinking is to "Maximize Effect Terror" I still have not seen an unedited version of Bin Ladin tape in the USA that is not downloaded from the Internet. Its too energy intensive to download huge files.

[Corey USA]

I think I might be the guilty one of being greenest in this group here. Since I am on the Extreme end of poverty here in the USA
(834$ which is 1/2 of the national poverty level in the USA) I Can't afford all the energy hog nick knacks So I spend my money on green things such as CFL lights and using 1 bulb at any given time. Every thing gets unplugged with exception to stove, frig, and phone. I try to buy local and in balk in my own reusable containers. If I had a space for a garden I would. What does what I just said have to do with peak oil? everything I am already moving to a lifestyle without or little oil.
Oh ya I bike everywhere. If I can't get there by bike I will only car pool with a full car I haven't done that in the last 4 months though. I carry everything on my bike as well. I am healthier as a result and lost 40lb since January.

The point being about bragging is there are upsides to simplifying and Consuming less. The upsides been greater than the sacrifice to boot.

Only reason for using the comunity computer is to educate and effect change.

Originally Posted by Corey USA

As far as the world trade center, if bin laden wanted to really shake the USA citizen's why did he hit it when there was only 3000 people instead of at peak population? Why the building that represented BIG BUSINESS rather than a CIVILIAN TARGET Like Mall OF America?

Because the Towers were highly symbolic of the US's commerical imperialism?

[Corey USA]

Originally Posted by EricArk

Because the Towers were highly symbolic of the US's commercial imperialism?

Symbolic to whom? Personally I never liked what the trade center truly stood for "greed." In my eyes anyway.

"Commercial Imperialism" that sound as if it represents Big Business not the general citizens. "Consumerism" would be the general population in regards to excessive consumption. which is "Gluten"
I made these points to see if we are on the same line of thought.

I do not know what his motives for it was or if he was truly responsible for it. I hold anything we are told by the US government suspect in that regards for Bin Ladin video was chopped up and most of it was edited out. What in the video is so threatening that it is censured on the basis of National Security? Isn't it in our best interest of the public to know the whole video "in context" so as to understand why it was done if the alleged video was a confession of the crime?
If I did not question this lopsided tale by our government, and just accept it because I was told by one side, a small portion of the whole, I would not be a good citizen or patriot at heart.

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by Corey USA

.As far as the world trade center, if bin laden wanted to really shake the USA citizen's why did he hit it when there was only 3000 people instead of at peak population? Why the building that represented BIG BUSINESS rather than a CIVILIAN TARGET Like Mall OF America? Terrorist thinking is to "Maximize Effect Terror" ..

Well, what complete nonsense.
So you guys were not shaken by the 9/11 deaths? Right.
The WTC's were not civilian targets then? Maybe they were staffed by the Marine Corps.
So, only 3000 people occupying them, then, at the time of the attacks? Err, nope.

Are you Dylan Avery?

Phil

Originally Posted by Philly112

Well, what complete nonsense.
So you guys were not shaken by the 9/11 deaths? Right.
The WTC's were not civilian targets then? Maybe they were staffed by the Marine Corps.
So, only 3000 people occupying them, then, at the time of the attacks? Err, nope.

Are you Dylan Avery?

Phil

IIRC we were told that the Twin Towers normally had around 20,000 people in them. The attacks were quite early in the office day, 8:46 and 9:03, so maximum casualties weren't the prime aim. It was appalling, but it could have been so much worse.

[Corey USA]

I live with Post traumatic stress from what happened. Nightmares and such I am from Rochester, MN. I get choked up any time I see visual ques of 9-11 I CANNOT watch anything 9-11 Without full blown CRYING. with SEVERE ATYPICAL PANIC ATTACKS which I use a service animal, since meds don't really help. It is such things as this that has led to my disability statis.

SO PLEASE don't accuse me of not feeling pain.
Terrorism is about MAXIMUM EFFECT.

3000 out of 20000= less than maximum. This is not terrorism.

If they wanted maximum effect then they would have used later flights. This is not the thinking of terrorist. This to me suggest someone going to war with Big Business or Government Conspiracy.

No my name is Corey Jacob, to show I do not hide behind nick names. My Regestered SERVICE CAT is named "Nighty" Which is protected under the American with disability act of 1990. And the Air Carrier act. He is registered with SARA "Service Animals Regestry of America" his number is "F2832"
I never fool around about 9-11 nor do I make jokes of it.

reason I am willing to share private info like that is to show I am willing to back up what I say.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by Corey USA

I live with Post traumatic stress from what happened. Nightmares and such I am from Rochester, MN. I get choked up any time I see visual ques of 9-11 I CANNOT watch anything 9-11 Without full blown CRYING. with SEVERE ATYPICAL PANIC ATTACKS which I use a service animal, since meds don't really help. It is such things as this that has led to my disability statis.

SO PLEASE don't accuse me of not feeling pain.
Terrorism is about MAXIMUM EFFECT.

3000 out of 20000= less than maximum. This is not terrorism.

If they wanted maximum effect then they would have used later flights. This is not the thinking of terrorist. This to me suggest someone going to war with Big Business or Government Conspiracy.

No my name is Corey Jacob, to show I do not hide behind nick names. My Regestered SERVICE CAT is named "Nighty" Which is protected under the American with disability act of 1990. And the Air Carrier act. He is registered with SARA "Service Animals Regestry of America" his number is "F2832"
I never fool around about 9-11 nor do I make jokes of it.

reason I am willing to share private info like that is to show I am willing to back up what I say.

Wasn't it because the others got out before the collapse? I thought it was only those above where the planes hit that were killed and the emergency services who had gone in to assist.

Hadn't the WTC been targeted before? I would have thought it a more landmark target than some shopping centre I've never heard of.

[Corey USA]

some had gotten out yes, most of the people on the street though were from the surrounding buildings. I have not heard of any report of the actual number of people who were in the tower who were able to get out. the death toll was based on family, friends, and acquaintances who reported people missing. I am sure they would have kept a tally of those who were in the building that did get out as part of a process to ensure future structure designs that can make it easier to evacuate. even of the lower floors were difficult to get out due to everybody wanting out at once. I am sure the stairs were still pact where the smoke wasn't overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Corey USA

some had gotten out yes, most of the people on the street though were from the surrounding buildings. I have not heard of any report of the actual number of people who were in the tower who were able to get out. the death toll was based on family, friends, and acquaintances who reported people missing. I am sure they would have kept a tally of those who were in the building that did get out as part of a process to ensure future structure designs that can make it easier to evacuate. even of the lower floors were difficult to get out due to everybody wanting out at once. I am sure the stairs were still pact where the smoke wasn't overwhelming.

Apparently there were 16,000 below the impact points and most of course got out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11
This site http://www.globalsecurity.org/eye/wtc.htm says
Some 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center. Another 150,000 to 200,000 business and leisure visitors came to the center daily.
I would guess from that and the height of the impacts, 16,000 was far less than would be in the lower parts of the buildings later in the day.

Originally Posted by Corey USA

I live with Post traumatic stress from what happened. Nightmares and such I am from Rochester, MN.

You think you suffer from stress from it, I was only 2 miles aways in greenwich village when the first plane hit.

If the towers had not collapsed there would have been minimal loss of life, the main loss was when the north tower collapsed.

[Corey USA]

Originally Posted by Manhattan Mike

You think you suffer from stress from it, I was only 2 miles aways in greenwich village when the first plane hit.

If the towers had not collapsed there would have been minimal loss of life, the main loss was when the north tower collapsed.

definitely agree with you on this point.

By no means am I saying my pain is any less or more than yours. different people respond differently to situations.

thanks for the link nikyzf

If you consider the numbers you just pointed out figure 50,000 evenly distributed then divide the height of ratio impact gives you a rough number of employees in the upper level. this does not count the visitors to figure them take the total divide by 8 hours gives roughly number in building at any given working hour.

50,000+25,000 = 75,000 / 2 = x = ~ number in each building at a given hour during work day
x/ ~1/3= ~ people left in building at hit and above for south building ~12,500
x/ ~ 1/4= ~ people in north tower at impact and above ~9375

Calculations are not perfect but gives you a rough idea of the numbers that should have died

too painful reading completely, the link provided so I was not able to locate if anyone above the hit point survived or not.

[johntheexpat]

Nothing at all to do with Peak Oil, but can anyone name a target with a higher profile in the whole USA than the Twin Towers?
The target needed to be in a leading US city. To the rest of the world that means LA, San Fransico or NY City.
The target has to be highly visible to the media, so rule out shopping malls, Government buildings, the Golden Gate bridge and others.
The Twin Towers were always going to be the most obvious target. Death is always a bonus to terrorists, it's never the prime motivation though. Fear and anger are what they seek rather than killing each and every one of us. If we become scared of everyone and angry at huge sections of humanity, then we lash out wildly and indiscriminately and those that we lash out at become our enemies even if they weren't beforehand. So we end up fighting everyone. That's what these people want. And sometimes I think that is what they are getting.

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Nothing at all to do with Peak Oil, but can anyone name a target with a higher profile in the whole USA than the Twin Towers?

They were one of the most highest profile buildings in the world, they not only stood for New York City but for the whole of the USA. The complete destruction of the towers was something even the terrorists were not expecting.

[Corey USA]

johntheexpat quoted: Nothing at all to do with Peak Oil, but can anyone name a target with a higher profile in the whole USA than the Twin Towers?
The target needed to be in a leading US city. To the rest of the world that means LA, San Fransico or NY City.
The target has to be highly visible to the media, so rule out shopping malls, Government buildings, the Golden Gate bridge and others.
The Twin Towers were always going to be the most obvious target. Death is always a bonus to terrorists, it's never the prime motivation though. Fear and anger are what they seek rather than killing each and every one of us. If we become scared of everyone and angry at huge sections of humanity, then we lash out wildly and indiscriminately and those that we lash out at become our enemies even if they weren't beforehand. So we end up fighting everyone. That's what these people want. And sometimes I think that is what they are getting.


all planes could have been routed to Pentagon or white house could have done a crippling blow to our leadership. If the Government had shot down those planes to prevent this it would have undermined the Americans view of our government and there could have been severe civil unrest if the government Killed Americans citizens. even to stop the planes from hitting those two targets.
This would have done more damage. Towards the the general public that is.

The target was the biggest thing representing Big business and greed Twin towers was big but it really did not represent the public at large. yes the general public went there but that was the location of many of the biggest business trades being done and brokered.

We need a psychologist in on this particular discussion regarding how the group think works when certain things are done and how a crowd would react.

Mall of America and the golden gate bridge including Mayo Clinic Are very public in regard to media , these places represent the general public.

Originally Posted by Corey USA

[COLOR="Blue"]The target was the biggest thing representing Big business and greed Twin towers was big but it really did not represent the public at large. yes the general public went there but that was the location of many of the biggest business trades being done and brokered.

They hit the towers because they represent everythng that is good about the west and America, also an attack on the greatest city in the world was an obvious objective.

Hitting any other target in the US would have been lower profile.

[Corey USA]

Originally Posted by Manhattan Mike

They hit the towers because they represent everythng that is good about the west and America, also an attack on the greatest city in the world was an obvious objective.

Hitting any other target in the US would have been lower profile.

Greed, excess? How are these things good? Explain that to me. Capitalism is being frowned upon by the majority of earths population The twin towers represented capitalism and that is it, nothing more.

only person I ever heard say one city was the best. there is no such thing as the All around greatest city it might be better in one area but not all areas. For example your reference to cops throwing bums in the east river that is not a trait of a great city.

Inflated egos

Originally Posted by Corey USA

Greed, excess? How are these things good? Explain that to me. Capitalism is being frowned upon by the majority of earths population The twin towers represented capitalism and that is it, nothing more.

Corey you continue to amaze me

Originally Posted by Corey USA

only person I ever heard say one city was the best.

New York City is looked upon as the greatest city in the world, but maybe I am being biased.

[Corey USA]

Originally Posted by Manhattan Mike

Corey you continue to amaze me



New York City is looked upon as the greatest city in the world, but maybe I am being biased.

Definitely biased most everyone who visited with exception of one or two hated being in New York City that I have encountered..

Whats to be amazed about? We are not popular on earth. We are considered the big bullies on the block. I have talked dirrectly to other Americans who have traveled to other countries(Britain) that we consider allies only to find out the general population hates Americans.

Why would they dislike us so much?

Possibility that the direct contact they had with anything American Is the Abuses by American Companies, The barrel end of our military, Excessive consumption beyond the per person capital on world population, The highest pollution per person. Think about it, many of the uneducated think Exxon is a typical example of the average American. They base it on there direct experiences dealing with Exxon thus extend the treatment by Exxon as the norm for all Americans.

None of this should Amaze you. Unless your systematically filtering your own information to create us Americans into the oh holy saviors of earth.

We are not Better or mightier, We are the same as everyone else with the exception we consume way more than the average by world definition. And we are willing to take what is not ours.

PS I recommend you see the movie "Sicko" same guy who brought us "Fahrenheit 9/11" It may be a distorted view but he hit on some key points about America.