[ad47uk]

I hate these bulbs, I really do, I find that the light they give out is awful and if I am reading my eyes start to hurt after a 15 mins or so. Now we are being told tat we should change to these bulbs and that the E.U and our government want to ban normal bulbs. Why should people who can not cope with these low energy bulbs have to suffer?

The other thing is that low energy bulbs are also useless in places where they are switch on and off quickly, like in the loo or on the stairs or even in the kitchen. My mate done a test one them and found out that when you switch these bulbs on they use double the amount of energy to switch on than they take normally.

So really it is all a load of rubbish and they are not as energy saving as we are lead to believe.

[Fusewire]

Not to mention very expensive, I have just paid £8 for an energy saving light bulb for my daughters groovy chick nightlight.

They have thier uses I suppose but like you say they also have thier limitations, they are hopeless in the loo and if you have dimmer switches they explode. (although there are dimmer switch compatible ones available now but they cost even more )

Best use I have found for them is in outside lights and nightlights.

[chriszzzzzz]

These were invented so the GW alarmists could knock us all back into the dark ages.
They are useless for giving light, which should be the primary use should it not?
I hate them with a passion. Luckily all the ones I have were given free from my electrical supplier. Probably in the vain hope of me changing. I have been steadily buying normal bulbs to build up a large stock before the EU ban on their sale comes in....

[njp]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

My mate done a test one them and found out that when you switch these bulbs on they use double the amount of energy to switch on than they take normally.

That claim is completely meaningless. As in: it doesn't mean anything. Perhaps you would like to post details of the alleged testing.

So really it is all a load of rubbish and they are not as energy saving as we are lead to believe.

On the basis of your meaningless claim? You'll have to do better than that.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by njp

That claim is completely meaningless. As in: it doesn't mean anything. Perhaps you would like to post details of the alleged testing.


On the basis of your meaningless claim? You'll have to do better than that.

What do you mean it don't mean anything? my mate tested a 30 watt low energy bulb using a energy tester, It is 30 watts because it is a day light bulb and to be honest it give out [pretty good light, but when he switched it on the bulb took over 60 watts, which is twice as much. the bulb will be fine for a room where it is left on, but useless for rooms, where you only enter for a few mins.

I have a normal low energy bulb here, whic I am going to take over to his house at some point and see if that does the same thing.
You think about it a low energy bulb is more or less a strip light made smaller and those lights take up more power when you switch them on,.

The problem is, do gooders are so intent in taking us back to the caves that they don't do tests on these bulbs. I am getting fed up of being told what I can or can't do, because of this so called climate change.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by Fusewire

Not to mention very expensive, I have just paid £8 for an energy saving light bulb for my daughters groovy chick nightlight.

They have thier uses I suppose but like you say they also have thier limitations, they are hopeless in the loo and if you have dimmer switches they explode. (although there are dimmer switch compatible ones available now but they cost even more )

Best use I have found for them is in outside lights and nightlights.

I found some for £2.50, but one of them went pop after 3 months and the others are now put into a drawer and left there, I have now got normal bulbs in all rooms apart from the kitchen and bathroom, that is because this is a housing Association house and they stuck a stupid round thing in the bathroom and a striplight in the kitchen. But it will be changed, the silly round thing in the bath room is coming out in the summer and is being replaced with a normal bulb, the strip light is being replaced with spots.

I am buying packs of normal bulbs every week now just in case the silly E.U stick their noses in and ban them, If they ban them by 2010, it gives me enough time to buy enough bulbs to last about 20 years.

I hate the low energy bulbs that much that I will do this.

[njp]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

What do you mean it don't mean anything? my mate tested a 30 watt low energy bulb using a energy tester, It is 30 watts because it is a day light bulb and to be honest it give out [pretty good light, but when he switched it on the bulb took over 60 watts, which is twice as much. the bulb will be fine for a room where it is left on, but useless for rooms, where you only enter for a few mins.

But for how long did it consume 60W? That's why I said your claim was meaningless. Energy is an absolute measure, in joules. Power (in watts) is a measure of the rate of energy consumption. How much energy the bulb uses in normal operation will depend on how long it is left on for...

If the 60 watts reading persisted, I suspect your friend may have inadvertently been measuring VA (apparent power) not watts (true power). Some energy saving bulbs have rather low power factors, whereas incandescent lamps have a power factor of 1.

I have measured a number of energy saving bulbs in the past and any power surge at switch on was shorter than the time it takes my meter to settle on a reading. In other words, I was unable to detect it.

The problem is, do gooders are so intent in taking us back to the caves that they don't do tests on these bulbs. I am getting fed up of being told what I can or can't do, because of this so called climate change.

The problem is that people like you propagate myths with no basis in reality. You would have more credibility if you argued about the energy costs of producing the bulbs in the first place, or the environmental costs of disposing of them at the end of their life.

[njp]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

I am buying packs of normal bulbs every week now just in case the silly E.U stick their noses in and ban them, If they ban them by 2010, it gives me enough time to buy enough bulbs to last about 20 years.

Well before you've exhausted your supply of lightbulbs, the rest of us will be using ultra-efficient LED lighting. Don't you think you'll look a bit silly?

[Chris Muriel]

Normal old fashioned fluorescent tubes also give out more light per watt-hour consumed - but they too consume a lot more on initial switch on.
ISTR that a fluorescent lamp has to be on for about 40 minutes continuously to break even in terms of energy saving.
Not sure what the equivalent period is for a modern energy saving bulb but they too are not suitable for use in situations where they are only required to illuminate for short periods.
I have also seen similar problems regarding their reliability ; hopefully this will improve as they become more commonplace.

Chris Muriel, Manchester

[njp]

Originally Posted by Chris Muriel

Normal old fashioned fluorescent tubes also give out more light per watt-hour consumed - but they too consume a lot more on initial switch on.
ISTR that a fluorescent lamp has to be on for about 40 minutes continuously to break even in terms of energy saving.

It's a myth! The energy break-even period is about 23 seconds on a conventional fluorescent tube.

Not sure what the equivalent period is for a modern energy saving bulb but they too are not suitable for use in situations where they are only required to illuminate for short periods.

It would be less for CFLs, as would the wear and tear.

I should add that I'm not a particular fan of CFLs. They don't meet all my lighting needs, and I don't regard them as environmentally ideal either. I expect LEDs to become the dominant light source in time. Their development has followed Haitz's Law (just as semiconductors have followed Moore's Law) for the last 30 years or so, and looks set to continue that way. Laboratory specimens exceeded the lumen/watt efficiency of CFLs some time ago.

[Chris Muriel]

Thanks NJP. Having lived in incorrect oblivion for a few decades, it would be good if you could point me to a reference source (preferably on the internet) that debunks this myth - hopefully with some numbers and calculations.
(before I tell my Dad that he lied to me about 40 years ago ).

CHris Muriel, Manchester

[chriszzzzzz]

[bjd]

Originally Posted by Chris Muriel

it would be good if you could point me to a reference source (preferably on the internet) that debunks this myth - hopefully with some numbers and calculations.
CHris Muriel, Manchester

A quick search gives a very rough example:


http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/m...hs.htm#answer1

[bjd]

Silly Enter key...............

Meant to add, from the same website:

"Should I leave CFLs on when I leave a room to keep saving money?

No! There used to be a general belief that because fluorescent strip lights used more power in their warm-up phase, then it was better to leave them on all the time. This was never true - an old style strip light (or non-electronic CFL) only uses as much energy in the warm-up phase as it does whilst operating for a minute or so, and modern electronic ballast CFLs use even less energy at the start."

[Fusewire]

The problem is that people like you propagate myths with no basis in reality.

That one really got me, my sides hurt, and I have tears of laughter rolling down my face.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle............

The entertainment value of your posts is certainly improving.

[Wellington Tim]

I have replaced every single bulb in my house with a low energy replacement. Standard, low energy bulbs are cheaply available from low-cost supermarkets like Morrisons. I bought them for about £1.50 each. I also found some to replace the halogen bulbs in the kitchen, though these were quite expensive. They take a few minutes to get bright, but are a good replacement. Also, I found the old halogen bulbs blew every five minutes, taking out the fuse for the downstairs light ring with it, so I was pleased to get rid of. So far, I haven't had to replace a single light bulb, since I changed over.

It does state on the packaging for the low energy bulbs, that frequently turning them on and off will reduce their life span.

I understood it to be true that neon strips used to take a lot of energy to start, and was once told, by an electrician at work, that they had to be run for two hours to become more energy efficient than standard bulbs. But the same bloke also told me that is not true of modern neon strips as they take a lot less energy to start than older types.

[Stuart Wright]

We have them throughout the whole house. They are great. They last much longer than normal bulbs and use less electricity. It's a no-brainer for everyone with a brain.

[blearyeyes]

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

We have them throughout the whole house. They are great. They last much longer than normal bulbs and use less electricity. It's a no-brainer for everyone with a brain.

That's great Stuart but as you probably realise they don't work with standard electronic dimmers and some don't fit existing lampholders. Plus have you read the horror story from the States regarding the woman who had the misfortune to have a low energy lamp smash onto her carpet? Upshot is the she was advised that because the lamp contained mercury her carpet was deemed to be 'hazardous waste' and had to be destroyed. The bill for removal and replacement cost her over $2000!

Low energy lamps are the future but more likely to be in the form of super efficent LEDs.

[England2Canada]

You lot are not alone on this. Just read this article below:

Ontario is banning the sale of incandescent light bulbs by 2012 and launching five province-wide conservation initiatives Energy Minister Dwight Duncan and Environment Minister Laurel Broten announced today.

The government says that by switching to compact fluorescent bulbs (CFLs) instead of incandescent bulbs, homeowners will reduce the amount of electricity to light their homes by around 75%.



In a Year 2000 study done by Natural Resources Canada and Statistics Canada, approximately 4 to 5% of all electricity used in Canada was used for lighting therefore a 75% reduction in the amount of electricity used in lighting could result in a 1 to 1.25% reduction in electricity usage.

A compact fluorescent light bulb or an energy saving light bulb, is a type of fluorescent lamp that fits into a standard light bulb socket or plugs into a small lighting fixture. In comparison to incandescent light bulbs, CFLs are appealing because they have a longer rated life and use less electricity, however, they are substantially more expensive, exhibit a different visible spectrum of light, and may be inconvenient due to size or incompatibility with existing light fixtures or dimmer controls.

One potential downside of the governments rush to banning incandescent light bulbs the safe disposal of compact fluorescent light bulbs. CFLs contain small amounts of mercury which can be damaging to the environment if not properly disposed of. Mercury, like lead, is a neurotoxin, and elevated blood mercury levels lead to retardation and deformities in children.

A CFL crushed in a landfill can expose air and water to mercury vapour therefore the Europeans require that CFLs are safely disposed of through government mandated recycling schemes.

In their announcement, the government did not announce any recycling programs for CFLs.

In addition to the incandescent light bulb ban, the government also announced five new energy programs for the summer of 2007.

Every Kilowatt Counts - a coupon and incentive brochure being mailed to every household in Ontario. The program provides coupons for CFL bulbs, ceiling fans, timers and other energy-saving devices.


Cool Savings Rebate Program - provides rebates for central air conditioner tune-ups and for the installation of energy-efficient central air conditioning systems and programmable thermostats.


Great Refrigerator Roundup - program to take old, inefficient fridges out of service.


Summer Savings - offers residential and small business consumers an incentive for reducing power use: cutting use by 10 per cent during a set period gives consumers an additional 10 per cent rebate on their electricity bills.


Peaksaver - a voluntary program that allows local distribution companies to remotely cycle down central air conditioners, water heaters and pool pumps when the electricity system is stretched.

[njp]

Originally Posted by blearyeyes

That's great Stuart but as you probably realise they don't work with standard electronic dimmers and some don't fit existing lampholders.

Since you can get versions which do work with standard dimmers, and shapes to suit most (not all) existing fittings, the power of your argument is much diminished.

Plus have you read the horror story from the States regarding the woman who had the misfortune to have a low energy lamp smash onto her carpet? Upshot is the she was advised that because the lamp contained mercury her carpet was deemed to be 'hazardous waste' and had to be destroyed. The bill for removal and replacement cost her over $2000!

That is either an urban myth, or she was duped. The proper response to such an accident would be to vacuum up the pieces and get on with your life. There is an issue regarding the end-of-life disposal of large quantities of CFLs (which is why I said I didn't regard them as environmentally ideal), but that's easy to manage if people dispose of them properly rather than putting them in their normal refuse (they won't, of course).

Low energy lamps are the future but more likely to be in the form of super efficent LEDs.

Well, at least we agree about that!

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

We have them throughout the whole house. They are great. They last much longer than normal bulbs and use less electricity. It's a no-brainer for everyone with a brain.

Just because you think they are great, it don't mean other people think they are. They don't show the same amount of light as a normal bulb at all, even when they are full brightness and why on earth should we be forced to use them anyway?

They are big and looks ugly, I know you can get smaller ones but they can be expensive.

You keep to your low energy bulbs if that suits you, but just remember that not every one likes them, in fact I know very few people that are 100% happy with low energy bulbs. I love reading, but find that with low energy bulbs it is difficult to see the page, so a nice bright 100watt bulbs does the trick.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by njp

But for how long did it consume 60W? That's why I said your claim was meaningless. Energy is an absolute measure, in joules. Power (in watts) is a measure of the rate of energy consumption. How much energy the bulb uses in normal operation will depend on how long it is left on for...

If the 60 watts reading persisted, I suspect your friend may have inadvertently been measuring VA (apparent power) not watts (true power). Some energy saving bulbs have rather low power factors, whereas incandescent lamps have a power factor of 1.

I have measured a number of energy saving bulbs in the past and any power surge at switch on was shorter than the time it takes my meter to settle on a reading. In other words, I was unable to detect it.


The problem is that people like you propagate myths with no basis in reality. You would have more credibility if you argued about the energy costs of producing the bulbs in the first place, or the environmental costs of disposing of them at the end of their life.

When my mate is feeling better as he have been unwell the last couple of days and when I feel better as well, because I have been suffering with some sort of a bug, I will pop over to his place and see what he means and do some of my own tests.

The problem here is that governments and also the undemocratic E.u wants to force people to buy these low energy bulbs, something I don't agree with, after all why on earth would I want to buy something I don't like using?

I never thought about the environmental costs of disposing of these bulbs, I suppose because they should in theory last a lot longer. this is the problem with somethings that are suppose to be environmental friendly, take the hybrid car, a friend of mine have a Toyota Prius, which if you did not know is a Hybrid car, but no one knows what the hell to do with the batteries when they reach the end of their life. toyota will take them back, so it says in the blurb, but do anyone know of the damage these things can do to the environment?

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by njp

Well before you've exhausted your supply of lightbulbs, the rest of us will be using ultra-efficient LED lighting. Don't you think you'll look a bit silly?

Maybe, but maybe not, it depends how good LEd lights are and if they produce a good light. I have an LEd tourch and yes it is pretty bright, but the problem is it don't have the range or the spread of my old torch. I know things will improve and LEds will get better, but so far you still can't beat a good old normal bulb.

As for energy, I don;t care about that, all I care about is good lighting, so if an LEd light takes up a fraction of the energy of a normal bulb, it is no good to me if it don't deliver the light.

[NackNack]

Originally Posted by Stuart Wright

We have them throughout the whole house. They are great. They last much longer than normal bulbs and use less electricity. It's a no-brainer for everyone with a brain.

And a no-brainer for those with eyes, they're horrendously bad when trying to do anything at night and make my eyes hurt.

[njp]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

I never thought about the environmental costs of disposing of these bulbs, I suppose because they should in theory last a lot longer. this is the problem with somethings that are suppose to be environmental friendly, take the hybrid car, a friend of mine have a Toyota Prius, which if you did not know is a Hybrid car, but no one knows what the hell to do with the batteries when they reach the end of their life. toyota will take them back, so it says in the blurb, but do anyone know of the damage these things can do to the environment?

Whole lifecycle costs are often neglected, in my opinion. In the case of CFLs, I am inclined to believe that whilst the energy costs of manufacture and the envionmental costs of disposal are higher than for incandescent lamps, this is more than offset by the lower impact on the environment over their lifetime. But there is at least an argument to be had there. There is no argument to be had about their energy efficiency in use!

I don't know about the manufacturing and recycling costs of batteries in electric or hybrid vehicles, but it is certainly something which should be factored into any assessment of "greenness".

[Mylo]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

Just because you think they are great, it don't mean other people think they are. They don't show the same amount of light as a normal bulb at all, even when they are full brightness and why on earth should we be forced to use them anyway?

They are big and looks ugly, I know you can get smaller ones but they can be expensive.

You keep to your low energy bulbs if that suits you, but just remember that not every one likes them, in fact I know very few people that are 100% happy with low energy bulbs. I love reading, but find that with low energy bulbs it is difficult to see the page, so a nice bright 100watt bulbs does the trick.

I rebuilt a car stereo in a room lit with low wattage bulbs so they can't be that bad.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by Mylo

I rebuilt a car stereo in a room lit with low wattage bulbs so they can't be that bad.

That depends on how good your eyes are, my eyes are not that good in dim light. I like reading, but I can't use these low energy bulbs to read with. I think my mates got the best idea, daylight bulbs t6hat still use less energy tan normal bulbs, but still put out some good light, the problem is they are not cheap.

[Mindcrime]

ENGLAND2CANADA, don't you just love the Ontarian government. They come up with some crackpot ideas and don't really think of the practicalities of them. A good start to saving electricity in the future would be to get all the office blocks in Downtown Toronto to actually turn their lights out when the work day is finished, instead of leaving them on 24/7. (This would also in turn prevent the needless deaths of thousands of birds that fly into these tower blocks.) But no, they have to pick on the little people first. I am amazed at how many office building are lit up like xmas trees every night.

[njp]

Originally Posted by ad47uk

That depends on how good your eyes are, my eyes are not that good in dim light. I like reading, but I can't use these low energy bulbs to read with.

There's no reason why you should have to suffer in dim light. You just need to buy a low energy bulb that has the same lumen output as the one it's replacing. I think people often replace 100W bulbs with CFLs that have the same light output as a 60W bulb, and then complain that they are too dim.

The daylight bulbs you refer to presumably have quite a different colour temperature to tungsten bulbs (and ordinary CFLs?), as well being extra bright.

[ad47uk]

Originally Posted by njp

There's no reason why you should have to suffer in dim light. You just need to buy a low energy bulb that has the same lumen output as the one it's replacing. I think people often replace 100W bulbs with CFLs that have the same light output as a 60W bulb, and then complain that they are too dim.

The daylight bulbs you refer to presumably have quite a different colour temperature to tungsten bulbs (and ordinary CFLs?), as well being extra bright.

The one i got for this computer room was suppose to replace a 100Watt bulb, but I still don't think it was anywhere near the brighness of a 100Watt bulb. My living room light system needs three bulbs, so I got three Energy savers that was suppose to replace a 60 watt bulb, total waste of time,

The daylight bulbs are great, but I doubt they will work in my lighting system in the living room. I will one day eventully replace it with a system that have only one bulb,.