[Sonic67]

Hybrid disks are only 25GB. That's less than the HD DVD disks. I'd like to think the current disks are on 50GB disks for a reason. Also HD DVD was on hybrid disks as they were the 'official' succesor to DVD. I don't know if the DVD consortium has changed their mind yet.

[cols]

I'm confused about what the problem is, if indeed there is one!

Hd is the next step in home av entertainment - as dvd was to vhs. Blu ray won the format "war".

Blu ray will gradually take over from dvd, it's supported by a lot of companies and is now the hd standard.

Ps3 is not the dominant console, we're all agreed that this is a good thing - competition means more choice and better deals for the consumer.

Ps3 is a higher end piece of kit than the other consoles, it costs more but it does more. For those of us who love gaming and movies it's the ideal machine.

It may not sell as well as the other consoles, but as well as what's already been said about it being on sale for less time, it's still selling a lot. It's hardly going to be dropped as a disaster and no more games made for it.

So long as they keep making blu rays, which they are, and keep making good games for ps3, which they are, and there's lots of people to play against online, which there are, then it's all good surely?

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by gavan

BD is set to be a niche for AV fans, if people are waiting for it to become mainstream by stealth through PS3 sales they'll be waiting a looooong time.

Can't agree with that at all. BD will essentially just take over from DVD. Players are already around the £100 mark and will be £20-£30 in no time (as well as built into TV's etc.) and DVD production will cease with all films just released on Blu Ray only in a few years time. All existing DVD's still play in Blu Ray players so the transition can be very smooth indeed (unlike VHS to DVD which was a far larger hurdle to get over.

Blu Ray discs are already comparable to DVD's in cost (although still higher) and discs can be had for around the £10 mark now. HDTV's are now dirt cheap (much cheaper than CRT ever was) with 42" 1080p sets for around the £500 mark and 50" sets for not much more! 32" HDTV sets (which was a pretty big size for CRT) can be had for around £300!

HDTV channel numbers are growing at a rapid rate with 30 now available via Sky HD.

Blu Ray is already becoming mainstream and is very much in the public domain now. If it was still niche then mainstream stores like Tesco, HMV, ASDA etc. wouldn't dedicate the shelf space to it. Give it another year when the prices of HDTV's and BD Players & discs have dropped even further and more and more people will be buying Blu Rays over DVD's. Having Blu Ray built into what has been the biggest brand in video gaming over the past decade also helps bring it to the mainstream.

[chowyunfatt]

Laser disk was a niche market and that lasted a long time, I paid £600 for mine in 1994 which equates to about £900 now I could only go to specialist shops to get films and they cost me £35-£40 each.

The cost of BD is nothing compared to that and the PS3 for that matter plus like others have said Asda, Tesco, HMV and others wouldn't stock it.
Movie studios want it and prefer it over DVD and seen as they have the most say on what they decide to put their films on it's a no brainier.

So far it's looking like Sony's plan for getting Blu-Ray started has paid off with the PS3 for the sacrifice in sales and lead on the console side.
Consoles come and go every 5 years or so but Blu-Ray could last 20 years like DVD will and I'm certain Sony know theres more money in that over just selling a short term video games console.

Come 2011 or even further down the line like say 2016 when new consoles are out it would be silly to think that DVD will be good enough for the amount of data those things will need, and downloading wont be main stream enough by then so 400gb Blu-Ray disks will be the main format choice, imo

[FoolsGold]

One of the things against Bluray is that most people dont appear to care about PQ.

My Dad got a new LCD at Christmas and he never bothered to set it up properly leaving and atrocious picture - I sorted it but he was quite happy.

People are buying huge TVs and having awful pictures but really dont care so a minor improvement from DVD to BD isnt going to make people switch. Tape to DVD was different in that you were changing the methods of storage - tape was old and DVD looked new and fancy. BDs are on DVDs so that mental upgrade isnt there.

People will only buy BD in mass if then NEED to. While you can get everything in DVD cheaper people wont be inteseted to any degree. I think BD has to be cheaper than DVD and I cannot see that happening. Also if the latest releases maybe came out on BD first that could help.

If not I think the reality is BD wont replace DVD ever it will just run along side as a better quality format until streaming etc takes over.

[chowyunfatt]

^^^^
Unless it gets to the point when sales of BD are big enough that studios stop releasing DVD's, that would make people upgrade just like it helped with the VHS to DVD change over.

[mudhutts]

Originally Posted by Rock Da Bass

Sorry for quoting out of context. It was so true though. I do think the PS3 is a great games machine, it's just I think the decision to put Blu-ray onto it has effectively lost the console war for PS3. Without Blu-ray it could have been out a year earlier and £100 cheaper. Despite what everyone says, the general public have zero interest in Blu-ray. The Blu-ray section in HMV is always like the Marie-Celeste.

RDB

The 360 hasn't won the format war, it is being outsold by a huge margin by the Wii.

Neither could the PS3 launch £100 cheaper without Blu-ray, it's the chipset that is the PS3's biggest cost.

With production costs reduced, Sony have price cuts planned for this year, in addition they have a far supperior exclusive software line-up, it would shock few if the PS3 closed and overtook 360 sales within a year or two.

As for Blu-ray, you mustn't have followed sales closely as 1/5 to 1/4 of sales are now on the format for major titles, it's only a matter of time before sales are close to 50/50.

[chowyunfatt]

Originally Posted by mudhutts

The 360 hasn't won the format war, it is being outsold by a huge margin by the Wii.

Neither could the PS3 launch £100 cheaper without Blu-ray, it's the chipset that is the PS3's biggest cost.

With production costs reduced, Sony have price cuts planned for this year, in addition they have a far supperior exclusive software line-up, it would shock few if the PS3 closed and overtook 360 sales within a year or two.

As for Blu-ray, you mustn't have followed sales closely as 1/5 to 1/4 of sales are now on the format for major titles, it's only a matter of time before sales are close to 50/50.

Good points, To be honest if the consoles stay in the position they are in at the end of this cycle and bearing in mind Blu-Ray ends up a massive success like DVD then I personally think Microsoft will come out the biggest losers.

Wii sells more and wins the console war, Sony's Blu-Ray ends up the dominant Disk format for the next 20 years and Microsoft lose loads of money in trying to force everybody else out of business.

There are loads of different scenarios and different ways you can look at things and twist them around it's not a simple as placing 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

[mudhutts]

Originally Posted by FoolsGold

One of the things against Bluray is that most people dont appear to care about PQ.

My Dad got a new LCD at Christmas and he never bothered to set it up properly leaving and atrocious picture - I sorted it but he was quite happy.

People are buying huge TVs and having awful pictures but really dont care so a minor improvement from DVD to BD isnt going to make people switch. Tape to DVD was different in that you were changing the methods of storage - tape was old and DVD looked new and fancy. BDs are on DVDs so that mental upgrade isnt there.

People will only buy BD in mass if then NEED to. While you can get everything in DVD cheaper people wont be inteseted to any degree. I think BD has to be cheaper than DVD and I cannot see that happening. Also if the latest releases maybe came out on BD first that could help.

If not I think the reality is BD wont replace DVD ever it will just run along side as a better quality format until streaming etc takes over.

Most people don't buy DVD's on a regular basis, the people that do are the ones that drive the market.

I don't think one in five people are Blu-ray enthusiasts at this time, yet one in five copies of TDK sold were on Blu-ray, this shows the DVD buying public is relatively small.

[CAS FAN]

People won't upgrade to Blu Ray as such, it will simply replace DVD in the same way that other formats have replaced what came before them.

When studios stop releasing DVD's then people will just have to buy Blu Rays. Not a problem really. How many people still buy VHS, Audio Cassettes, Vinyl records etc. The biggest one is probably the switch off of analogue TV as everyone who watches TV has had to either buy a new TV or a new tuner (be it a freeview box, or sky etc.).

At the end of the day, things move on and watching films is a luxury anyway. If people wan't to keep watching new films then eventually (probably a couple of years away yet) they will have to own a Blu Ray player. You'll probably find though that most houses have around 2 or 3 of them by then as happened with DVD players. They will cost hardly anything to buy and you'll probably be able to pick up a Matsui 1080p 32" HDTV with built in Blu Ray for £199 by then.

New tech is always niche initially and although the mass market aren't that bothered about PQ etc. would any of them now go back to their 14" black & white portables? Everyone likes to see sharper & clearer pictures which are as close to reality as possible as they just look better and at that basic level you don't need to be an enthusiast to enjoy the benefits.

[DJ Ovengloves]

With all due respect mate, I am a geek, you are a geek, CAS is a geek...most people on here are geeks we love HD/ AV and have made it a hobby so to speak!

The problem is that the general public really don't seem to care too much about HD / blu-ray / AV / 1080p etc, whether price is the issue (that's what I believe BTW) who knows, but if there's not a large scale adoption this year / next I feel blu-ray will miss the boat and remain a niche market until the downloads / video on demand via TV become the norm.

Originally Posted by chowyunfatt

Laser disk was a niche market and that lasted a long time, I paid £600 for mine in 1994 which equates to about £900 now

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by Lee

With all due respect mate, I am a geek, you are a geek, CAS is a geek...most people on here are geeks we love HD/ AV and have made it a hobby so to speak!

The problem is that the general public really don't seem to care too much about HD / blu-ray / AV / 1080p etc, whether price is the issue (that's what I believe BTW) who knows, but if there's not a large scale adoption this year / next I feel blu-ray will miss the boat and remain a niche market until the downloads / video on demand via TV become the norm.

What you're forgetting Lee is that consumers do not control what they buy, the studio's and manufacturers control what we buy. It's not very cost effective for the market to support 2 formats and from their point of view they will want everything on just one format asap.

I agree that some folk aren't that bothered about specs etc. but it's amazing how many 'non geeks' do like to have a decent setup. I think we sometimes assume that if you're not an AV Geek then you don't care at all and just buy the cheapest rubbish out there. Most folk like to own nice stuff (be it a car, clothes, TV's etc.) and HDTV's & Blu Ray are just another nice thing for folk to own in our consumer society.

[clc.sheff]

My name is clc.sheff and i am a geek!

da kids don't think blueray is niche, they think it's up to date and the muts nuts, same as with the ps3. They maybe just can't afford it yet. but they want one.....oh yes

p.s. I might be wrong here but when are the download speeds going to be fast enought for hd downloading? I can't update my ps3 in under 30 mins!

p.p.s. What a great thread!

[chowyunfatt]

Originally Posted by Lee

With all due respect mate, I am a geek, you are a geek, CAS is a geek...most people on here are geeks we love HD/ AV and have made it a hobby so to speak!

The problem is that the general public really don't seem to care too much about HD / blu-ray / AV / 1080p etc, whether price is the issue (that's what I believe BTW) who knows, but if there's not a large scale adoption this year / next I feel blu-ray will miss the boat and remain a niche market until the downloads / video on demand via TV become the norm.

I'm not one of those geeks like in Superbad I'll have you know I'm a 6' distinguished gent with a gsoh.

[lovebeer]

My brother in law was bought a ps3 bundle for christmas by his better half.
He admited to me that he had never thought about buying a bluray player before then but after watching a bluray film from his bundle said he would never buy a dvd again,blu from now on.As for movie downloads being the norm i reckon we are years away from them,or until the majority of people have fast unlimited broadband.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by FoolsGold

People will only buy BD in mass if then NEED to.

No-one NEEDS to buy a TV!

[dude-1981]

Originally Posted by clc.sheff

p.s. I might be wrong here but when are the download speeds going to be fast enought for hd downloading? I can't update my ps3 in under 30 mins!

Gonna be a good few years in the UK. It's gonna cost a LOT of money to upgrade our old copper wires and like the railways, this government will likely put it off, take shortcuts and end up spending more than it would have to have done it properly. (Apologies, too much Private Eye for me lately.) We're already some way behind Germany and Japan (and others I'm sure.)


Still a big price difference for some BR and DVDs, Cloverfield is £2.98 for the one disc on Amazon while the BR will set you back £15.98!

[CAS FAN]

I think sometimes we think that you need to be some geek with instruments to measure picture quality, black level etc. to appreciate Blu Ray.

Well no you don't, you just need a set of eyes and an HDTV. If you have those then it looks much better than DVD. Anyone can appreciate than and it's a bit arrogant to assume that folk who don't live AV like we do, just don't care.

[clc.sheff]

Originally Posted by dude-1981

Gonna be a good few years in the UK. It's gonna cost a LOT of money to upgrade our old copper wires and like the railways, this government will likely put it off, take shortcuts and end up spending more than it would have to have done it properly. (Apologies, too much Private Eye for me lately.) We're already some way behind Germany and Japan (and others I'm sure.)


Still a big price difference for some BR and DVDs, Cloverfield is £2.98 for the one disc on Amazon while the BR will set you back £15.98!

That's what I think, we need the stopgap. There might be another (popular) disk format after blueray for all we know.

I wouldn't buy cloverfield for £16 on blueray, but , It's a lot cheaper than it was and it'll come down more. The fact that DVD's are so cheap now has got to imply at least on some level that blueray is going to become a major format.

Similarily, I wouldn't have considered getting transformers on anything but blueray and it's definately worth it. I've bought lots of DVD's this crimbo and a few bluerays, they both play in my ps3 so I can't really see the problem

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by dude-1981

Still a big price difference for some BR and DVDs, Cloverfield is £2.98 for the one disc on Amazon while the BR will set you back £15.98!

True, but the gap is definately closing with many Blu Rays available for £10 over the festive period and plenty in deals as well. It's economies of scale though and costs won't reduce to DVD levels until sales are comparative. We saw the same with VHS though where the VHS versions of new films came out at around £6.99 with the DVD versions at £12.99, £15.99 etc.

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by clc.sheff

That's what I think, we need the stopgap. There might be another (popular) disk format after blueray for all we know.

I wouldn't buy cloverfield for £16 on blueray, but , It's a lot cheaper than it was and it'll come down more. The fact that DVD's are so cheap now has got to imply at least on some level that blueray is going to become a major format.

Similarily, I wouldn't have considered getting transformers on anything but blueray and it's definately worth it. I've bought lots of DVD's this crimbo and a few bluerays, they both play in my ps3 so I can't really see the problem

Can't say i've bought anything on DVD for ages now. It must be a getting on for 9-12 months since I bought a DVD. Actually I tell a lie, bought Firefly box set the other day for £7.97 and Alias season 1 about 6 months ago, but no films. Bought loads of HDDVD's though and my Blu Ray purchases have picked up as well of late.

[DJ Ovengloves]

Going to have 95% disagree there

Consumers buy what they want (or what they think they want), with their money...whilst HD-DVD was killed off by corporations and not consumers,it'll be suicide for them to try to do the same to DVD IMO.

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

What you're forgetting Lee is that consumers do not control what they buy, .

[DJ Ovengloves]

I only have 2.5 Mb download and I can download a single layer DVD (in theory of course ) in about 5 hours.

Originally Posted by clc.sheff

p.s. I might be wrong here but when are the download speeds going to be fast enought for hd downloading? I can't update my ps3 in under 30 mins!

p.p.s. What a great thread!

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by Lee

Going to have 95% disagree there

Consumers buy what they want (or what they think they want), with their money...whilst HD-DVD was killed off by corporations and not consumers,it'll be suicide for them to try to do the same to DVD IMO.

You can't buy DVD's if they are phased out. Go and buy The Dark Knight on VHS if you like, but you may struggle.

If you think that consumers control what they buy then you're sadly mistaken. Blu Ray will be heavily marketed and then DVD will be gradually phased out the way VHS was.

[SHATNERSTACTIC]

Some figures from Nielsen on games console useage in the first 10 months of 2008.

PS2 crushes Wii, Xbox and PS3 in played minutes ~ CNet

[clc.sheff]

Just out of interest. I have some questions

1. Does anyone know how long currently it takes to download the equivalent of a blueray on an average connection (assumes over a bt line).

2. Is it possible for a lot of people to do this at the same time?

[DJ Ovengloves]

My point is..."don't **** off the consumers".

Whilst nearly everyone saw the benefit of DVD over VHS and didn't need to upgrade to get these benefits picture wise, it still took time...take away DVD and effectively force people to upgrade all their TV's (little Jonnys play room, the bedroom, kids rooms etc) to enjoy the latest flicks would be "not popular" and counter productive IMO.

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

You can't buy DVD's if they are phased out. Go and buy The Dark Knight on VHS if you like, but you may struggle.

If you think that consumers control what they buy then you're sadly mistaken. Blu Ray will be heavily marketed and then DVD will be gradually phased out the way VHS was.

[DJ Ovengloves]

1) Depends on your connection

2) Oh yes!

Originally Posted by clc.sheff

Just out of interest. I have some questions

1. Does anyone know how long currently it takes to download the equivalent of a blueray on an average connection (assumes over a bt line).

2. Is it possible for a lot of people to do this at the same time?

[DJ Ovengloves]

We now live in the "internet age" where people can whinge on mass and can swap service providers by a click....do you think windows XP would have been given a lifeline 5 - 10 years ago?..people can now add their collective voices and the companies listen (if begrudgingly)...the consumer has never been in such control - ever!

Force a product on the masses nowadays and the consumer is more likely to buy a dodgey copy off the market or download, especially if they can't see the point.

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

If you think that consumers control what they buy then you're sadly mistaken. Blu Ray will be heavily marketed and then DVD will be gradually phased out the way VHS was.

[gavan]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

You can't buy DVD's if they are phased out. Go and buy The Dark Knight on VHS if you like, but you may struggle.

If you think that consumers control what they buy then you're sadly mistaken. Blu Ray will be heavily marketed and then DVD will be gradually phased out the way VHS was.

DVD has massive market penetration, the notion that it would be phased out in order to shift people to Blu Ray when there was still a viable DVD market is quite simply nonsensical fanboy fantasy.

VHS was phased out after DVD had taken over. The game was up for it and devoting physical stock to DVD was a much more profitable idea