Super White/ Full Range RGB

nope. full range literally means every shade from 0-255 is passed. with limited range only 16-255 is passed. same with dvd players - most of them only passed the limited range, but the top end players did the lot. you dont need hdmi 1.3 to support it. ytou'd need hdmi for 32bit or 48bit colour, but not standard full range 24bit.

No - you are confusing two issues.

In FULL mode the source - which is 16-235 - is remapped to 0-255 - so blacks which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 16, are not output at 16 and instead reduced to 0. Whites which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 235 are scaled to hit 255. Anything below 16 or above 235 (so called Blacker than Black and Whiter than White information) is clipped in FULL mode - it is NOT passed.

The key thing to understand is that broadcast TV, DVDs, HD-DVDs and BluRay are mastered with black at 16 and White at 235 (whether RGB or YCrCb representation are used - and Cr Cb are 16-240 centred around 127) These are known as studio or broadcast levels - and have a narrower black-to-white range to allow for below-black and above-white excursions to be carried without clipping - which is an important issue when you are mixing analogue and video sources (Transitions can cause spikes in analogue circuitry that will go past black and white levels, if these are clipped, they will cause ringing - i.e. artificial black/white edge distortion - when converted back to analogue.)

The fact that FULL and LIMITED are not simply different ways of displaying a signal with the same range - as you suggest - is clearly visible when you flip between modes - as in FULL mode the black level drops and white level increases. This is NOT what would happen if the switch was simply between passing <16 and >235 or not and keeping black at 16 and white at 235 - you would get no black or white level shift. But you do.

Super White is the option that allows whiter-than-white to be passed - not FULL.

FULL is simply an option Sony added to remap 16-235 studio levels to the older DVI RGB standard (previously uncatered for in PS3) using PC levels of 0-255. It is NOT to do with passing blacker than black or whiter than white - as it clips <16 and >235 levels in the remap process. This is important for projectors and owners of older HDTVs with DVI inputs added for use with PCs rather than video sources.
 
but what about limited not passing blacker than black?

That is a different issue - FULL cannot pass blacker than black - as it maps studio black (16) to PC black (0) - and thus blacker than black has to be clipped as negative values cannot be carried, you can't go below 0.

Blacker than Black only exists on studio level carriage and can't on PC level carriage if it is implemented with studio black at PC black level, which is what the whole Limited and Full options are for.

My understanding is that in Super White mode the PS3 outputs YCrCb with above white detail unclipped.

I've not done enough research on blacker than black - partially because if a TV is properly aligned, blacker than black should not be massively visible, otherwise your black level is "sat up"... As someone who works with broadcast video signals daily - and looks at broadcast quality monitors - the standard PLUGE line up is designed to NOT show blacker than black video.

Blacker than Black and Whiter than White information should only be present on discs mastered poorly - there is no reason for sub-black or super-white picture information to be encoded - in many cases it wouldn't survive the broadcast chain (depending on the legalisers and encoders used)
 
ok so what you're saying is that on my tv.. i should be using YCrCb and rgb limited setting? that RGB full is not applicable to my set?

cheers,
mick

No - you are confusing two issues.

In FULL mode the source - which is 16-235 - is remapped to 0-255 - so blacks which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 16, are not output at 16 and instead reduced to 0. Whites which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 235 are scaled to hit 255. Anything below 16 or above 235 (so called Blacker than Black and Whiter than White information) is clipped in FULL mode - it is NOT passed.

The key thing to understand is that broadcast TV, DVDs, HD-DVDs and BluRay are mastered with black at 16 and White at 235 (whether RGB or YCrCb representation are used - and Cr Cb are 16-240 centred around 127) These are known as studio or broadcast levels - and have a narrower black-to-white range to allow for below-black and above-white excursions to be carried without clipping - which is an important issue when you are mixing analogue and video sources (Transitions can cause spikes in analogue circuitry that will go past black and white levels, if these are clipped, they will cause ringing - i.e. artificial black/white edge distortion - when converted back to analogue.)

The fact that FULL and LIMITED are not simply different ways of displaying a signal with the same range - as you suggest - is clearly visible when you flip between modes - as in FULL mode the black level drops and white level increases. This is NOT what would happen if the switch was simply between passing <16 and >235 or not and keeping black at 16 and white at 235 - you would get no black or white level shift. But you do.

Super White is the option that allows whiter-than-white to be passed - not FULL.

FULL is simply an option Sony added to remap 16-235 studio levels to the older DVI RGB standard (previously uncatered for in PS3) using PC levels of 0-255. It is NOT to do with passing blacker than black or whiter than white - as it clips <16 and >235 levels in the remap process. This is important for projectors and owners of older HDTVs with DVI inputs added for use with PCs rather than video sources.



with full range on, the 40w2000 can stil display all shades of grey. try it and see. when you set your screen up for full range, it makes a massive difference.
[/QUOTE]
 
so using the thx optimiser - should i be able to see the drop shadow when using the ps3 on my display? i used to be able to with my oppo 981.. but i cant with the ps3... (maybe i need to take a closer look!)
 
ok so what you're saying is that on my tv.. i should be using YCrCb and rgb limited setting? that RGB full is not applicable to my set?

cheers,
mick

My understanding of the situation is that RGB Full is only there for owners of PC level DVI displays (which are 0-255 RGB only - and not 16-235 RGB or YCrCb compatible)

AIUI they only have an effect if you are forcing RGB for BD/DVD replay rather than using YCrCb?

I'd have the BD/DVD settings for BD/DVD replay as YCrCb for a modern HDMI TV - like a Sony Bravia - so that YCrCb rather than RGB was passed via HDMI (YCrCb is what is recorded on the disc) and try Superwhite on in the separate Display settings menu - odd that they have two menus for these - I think they treat BD/DVD very separately to XMB and Gameplay (My understanding is that Superwhite is for >235 levels to be passed - but I may be wrong - and it may be some optional HDMI colourspace mangling thing)

The advantage - in theory - of YCrCb carriage is that it avoids the source making mistakes in colourspace conversion - as there are two different YCrCb to RGB conversion standards in use (SD uses CCIR 601, HD uses CCIR 709 - mainly) which can alter the colour cast of a source subtly if not correctly selected - though it then leaves the display to make the mistake! (Early HD-DVD players got this wrong in 720p mode as they went via RGB to scale from 1080 to 720 and got the colourspace conversion wrong during one of the processes)

The option to force RGB is there, again, for DVI RGB-only display owners AIUI.

I have never clearly seen well documented evidence that the current PS3 firmware successfully passes <16 blacker-than-black information via YCrCb or RGB - but I'm pretty certain that RGB FULL levels mean it can't possibly...
 
so using the thx optimiser - should i be able to see the drop shadow when using the ps3 on my display? i used to be able to with my oppo 981.. but i cant with the ps3... (maybe i need to take a closer look!)

If the THX optimiser drop shadow is <16 (i.e. sub black or blacker-than-black) then that depends whether the PS3 clibs sub black levels in either RGB limited or YCrCb output modes. I'm pretty certain you shouldn't see it in RGB Full mode if it is <16...
 
ok.. so by leaving my ps3 outputting YCrCb i am ok.. and calibrating brightness using thx optimiser..i should be close enough (well at least a good shot at it?)

thanks for the info

cheers,
mick



YCrCb
If the THX optimiser drop shadow is <16 (i.e. sub black or blacker-than-black) then that depends whether the PS3 clibs sub black levels in either RGB limited or YCrCb output modes. I'm pretty certain you shouldn't see it in RGB Full mode if it is <16...
 
So (ALL) what screen do you have and what do you have the PS3 set too.

I have the Sammy Le40M86 via HDMI and i have the PS3 set to Full RGB, i will go back to Limited after reading this to be honest.
 
Toshiba 42X3030, PS3 set to Limited RGB. The blacks become far too dark and consume detail.
 
I have a Pioneer pdp-428xd and I have to choose Full to see all details in blacks. I don't know techical details but apparently there is a bug messing up with shadows in this TV. If I can quote ******** (guy who made good settings for that TV):

If you're using a PS3 via HDMI with this TV, there is a bug that will destroy shadow and highlight details if you have "RGB Full Range" enabled in the PS3's display settings. I won't go into the technical details as to why, but to set up your PS3 properly with this TV, you should go to:

1: Settings > Display Settings > RGB Full Range (HDMI) set it to "Full"

2: Settings > BD/DVD Settings > BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) and change it to "RGB"

3: TV Menu > Option > HDMI Input > Video and change it from "Auto" to "Colour-4"

After a second or two, you should see the image change to a lower contrast, and far more accurate image.

So not every new TV has to have Limited enabled in menu.
 
I have a Hitachi 42pd7200 plasma. At first i thougt Full RGB was an improvement (mostly with games). That is untill i used the THX optimizer after i noticed a lack in black detail with movies. Afwul! I almost couldn't get the THX sign to show. Switched it back to limited and turned up the colors a bit. Big improvement!!

Super white does nothing for my tv, but i don't think my tv supports super white.
 
I'd have the BD/DVD settings for BD/DVD replay as YCrCb for a modern HDMI TV - like a Sony Bravia - so that YCrCb rather than RGB was passed via HDMI (YCrCb is what is recorded on the disc) and try Superwhite on in the separate Display settings menu - odd that they have two menus for these - I think they treat BD/DVD very separately to XMB and Gameplay (My understanding is that Superwhite is for >235 levels to be passed - but I may be wrong - and it may be some optional HDMI colourspace mangling thing)

This fixes superwhite for me. So YCrCb rather than RGB is the important part. It doesn't really change the picture however, but at least you always have a perfect colour match with the disc.
 
Hmm, interesting thread.

I'd come to the conclusion that since the disks are encoded Limited then using Full wasn't correct, and using YCrCb for BR playback should be better since then there won't be colour conversion to RGB.

Running on a Pioneer LX608D as a quick test I played POTC with RGB then YCrCb to see if there was a quality difference - both myself and Tony (Mr Lazzerini from the Pioneer threads) preferred the YCrCb, just had the edge on realism, not a huge difference but we both agreed it 'felt' better.

This all leads to another question though, what range of output is the PS3 using for everything other than BluRay? I'd presume that games are set up to use Full RGB, any ideas?
 
This all leads to another question though, what range of output is the PS3 using for everything other than BluRay? I'd presume that games are set up to use Full RGB, any ideas?

The RGB full/limited setting affects XMB and games as I understand it, so there is still a reason to get this setting right for your display.

I'm still not sure what to set mine to, because when the XMB background is black (in the evenings), my TV displays it blacker on RGB Full vs limited. Is this proof enough that my TV is based on RGB levels 0-255 rather than 16-235? Would be quite bad to have this wrong as that would mean losing detail with low blacks and bright whites. My TV is a Philips 37PF9830 BTW.

If you use YCrCb does that avoid this 0-255 vs 16-235 problem entirely? I thought the colours on a blu-ray looked slightly better in RGB on my set.

I'm hoping someone can tell us all how to check whether a TV is based on 0-255 or 16-235 levels.
 
The RGB full/limited setting affects XMB and games as I understand it, so there is still a reason to get this setting right for your display.

I'm still not sure what to set mine to, because when the XMB background is black (in the evenings), my TV displays it blacker on RGB Full vs limited. Is this proof enough that my TV is based on RGB levels 0-255 rather than 16-235? Would be quite bad to have this wrong as that would mean losing detail with low blacks and bright whites. My TV is a Philips 37PF9830 BTW.

If you use YCrCb does that avoid this 0-255 vs 16-235 problem entirely? I thought the colours on a blu-ray looked slightly better in RGB on my set.

I'm hoping someone can tell us all how to check whether a TV is based on 0-255 or 16-235 levels.

Your TV may well cope with both with different brightness and contrast settings - there is no reason why a display can't accept and display both if configured correctly.

AIUI there is no 0-255 variant of YCrCb encoding "in the wild" though - so all YCrCb interconnects should be based on 16-235 and 16-240 for Y and CrCb respectively. (Doesn't stop users altering the brightness, contrast, and possibly saturation, to stop this delivering an accurate result...)
 
This all leads to another question though, what range of output is the PS3 using for everything other than BluRay? I'd presume that games are set up to use Full RGB, any ideas?

Given that the PS3 was designed from the ground up for connection with TVs rather than PC displays, and was designed with DVD and BluRay in mind, I'd expect it to run video levels internally - (though it could scale internally)

Whatever your choice - I'd expect the output to be consistent - so either everything FULL RGB or everything LIMITED RGB?
 
Sharp 46XD1E

Blu-ray Settings -YCrCb and Superwhite on. I also changed my TV's HDMI settings to YCrCb and 709 colourspace, which is used for HD sources.

Games and the XMB menu use RGB, and PC colourspace, so I understand RGB Full should be used, limited makes the XMB menu look very washed out.

If you use RGB for Blu-ray playback RGB Limited should be used.

Confusion seems to arrise because the RGB settings are different for Blu-ray and Games on a new HDTV, should you choose to use RGB rather than YCrCb for Blu-ray playback.
 
Nice thread! Wish I could find it before i called to a shop and asked to replace my tv... :p

So... my tv is Sharp LC-42XD1E connected to PS3 via HDMI cable.

Could you tell me how to set this tv options and ps3 options to have best possible image for 1) games, 2) for playback from Blu-Ray ?

As Jaguard1977 mentioned the XMB looks ulgy on limited RGB but.... with full RGB all the games are loosing shadow details on my tv. Is there a way to have deep colors at menu and shadow details in games?

edit: Can't stop thinking about this color lost on limited setting. So did some recon and found this on ps forums:

Quote:First, save this image, and put it on your PS3 via a memory card or some other method:
http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Brightness.jpg

With the option set to limited, adjust the brightness control on your TV until you can see most/all of the boxes. There are 12 boxes there, but you might not be able to see them all. You should hopefully be able to see at least 9/10 of them.

Now switch it over to Full range. Can you still see all the boxes? It's very likely that you will only see a full black screen now if you're using a HDTV rather than a DVI monitor.

If you can turn up the brightness control and see the same number of boxes again, then it seems your display does support the full range. If it stays black, or you can't see as many boxes as before, your TV does not support the full range option and you should be using limited.

So try it out, but it should noted that most HDTV's should have RGB set to limited.

I did this test with the brightness file. On limited I saw 12 boxes, when switched to Full RGB all those boxes were gone except one, then tuned brightness up and finaly had 12 boxes again. So is my tv supporting Full RGB range for HDMI? Neverthelss when playing Motorstorm on limited RGB I can see more details in shadows than in full RGB. So I am confused.
 
Indeed, very nice thread. Came looking for this tonight after watching a few Trailers (playstation store) on my Panasonic TH42PZ70. For example I noticed that when watching the Superman Returns Trailer I was essentially missing lots of detail i.e. everything was black. Having played around for a few hours tonight and having read this thread I have settled on the following;

BD / DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) - Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr

RGB Full Range (HDMI) - Limited

Super-White (HDMI) - Off

As for the TV I'm still making minor adjustments but essentially I'm running the 'cinema' default.

Oh well, back to more watching, only time will tell.

Cheers all.
 
I must be the exception here, but after reading this thread I switched to Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr, but I found the BD playback to be very washed out and lacking detail. A quick revert to Automatic and the PQ returned to it's normal glory. Not sure what automatic does (I presume it just switches between the two) but it's a vast improvement.

I'm watching a Panny 37PV70.
 
Can anyone help, when i select the standard limited for RGB the picture seems to bright and washed out for games but fine for movies, but if i select Full for RGB it seems much better but the black level is crushed completely and movies are too dark what am i doing wrong what setting should the RGB be set at, i am using a panasonic px700 using HDMI thanks.
 
Can anyone help, when i select the standard limited for RGB the picture seems to bright and washed out for games but fine for movies, but if i select Full for RGB it seems much better but the black level is crushed completely and movies are too dark what am i doing wrong what setting should the RGB be set at, i am using a panasonic px700 using HDMI thanks.

Leave it on limited, and adjust your contast and brightness. Chances are you have them set too high. :smashin:
 
This Full or Limited choice seems to be very hap hazard, but from playing Uncharted there are definitely places on there you can not see without having the PS3 set to Limited no matter what brightness or contrast settings you put in.

My TV has passed all the tests with the jpg's to show it can do "Full" as people have suggested here.

The XMB looks really bad when you use the Limited option however, the black seems grey! I will play around with the brightness and contrast settings however and see if this can be rectified.

Is there a definitive answer? I tend to think that we should all be using Limited from the posts here, but there are a few sites suggesting that we will get much better pictures setting to Full! I'm very confused.
 
This Full or Limited choice seems to be very hap hazard, but from playing Uncharted there are definitely places on there you can not see without having the PS3 set to Limited no matter what brightness or contrast settings you put in.

My TV has passed all the tests with the jpg's to show it can do "Full" as people have suggested here.

The XMB looks really bad when you use the Limited option however, the black seems grey! I will play around with the brightness and contrast settings however and see if this can be rectified.

Is there a definitive answer? I tend to think that we should all be using Limited from the posts here, but there are a few sites suggesting that we will get much better pictures setting to Full! I'm very confused.

me too
 

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