[Mr_Twister]

Hi all

I know this is a PS2 game but that's a quiet forum and it may have worked on the PS3. Have a look at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/6767623.stm which confirms the BBFC won't classify it and therefore it'll be illegal to sell it.

Am very interested by this decision, given that the BBFC rarely (once) go this far so something has really upset them. Thoughts?

[Shoki]

Just actually finished reading the same story on ign, wonder what was so offensive, or could this be the start of the BBFC starting to clamp down, perhaps the dean of manchester has had a word.

[cracker]

Sir Quentin Thomas of the BBFC is the brother of my Headmaster from high school... he was a **** too!

[nbkicker33]

glad ive got a usa ps3 now, at least i can import it and play it

[AJUK]

Whta a load of craop i wouldn't mind if it was a universal rule, but have you seen how grim hostel and the saw movies are. Don't get me wrong i don't want them banned either, nothing wrong with a bit of gore , but they're far worse than most games. I hate the stigma that's attached to games, i think that people still class people who play computer games a sweaty geeks in a darkened room with no friends, errm well i'm sure most of us aren't like that. When i first met my girlfriend she though games where for 'kids' and i think alot of people have the same judgement too. Stupid idiots who say ''oooh they're not efly dem shootin' game thingys'' and they're probaly the people who spend most of their lives watching trash tv, like fat people get slim and celebrity: 'insertanyrandomwordhere' shows.

[Rock Da Bass]

The BBFC are usual fairly liberal with games (IMHO) so Rockstar must have really overstepped the mark this time. They seem to be more concerned with causing controversy than makng good games recently.

Does a game really have to be so violent it can't get a classification? I'm guessing the gameplay in the game itself is pretty dire so they felt they had to gore it up a bit.

RDB

[Moogle]

I realise the PS3 is backward compatible and this will most likely wotk on it but it is a PS2 game. We do have a PS2 forum where this belongs. There is no point having a PS2 forum unless we use it for PS2 related news which this is first and foremost. So I am going to have to move this to the PS2 forum. If you wish to discuss it futher please do so there.

[WelshBluebird]

I can see why the wii version was banned. Read this (from IGN)

Consider for one moment that in Manhunt 2 you can, Wii remote and nunchuk in hands, use a pair of pliers to clamp onto an enemy's testicles and literally tear them from his body in a bloody display; and if that weren't enough, you'll take one of the poor victim's vertebrae along with his manhood. Or, if you'd prefer, you can use a saw blade and cut upward into a foe's groin and buttocks, motioning forward and backward with the Wii remote as you go. But believe it or not, there is much more to Manhunt 2 than mutilation and mayhem. This is a game that begins with the subject of psychosis.

That does cross a line IMO, as you are physically doing the actions to mutilate people. But I think the PS2 and PSP versions should be given an 18 rating, and be allowed to be sold, as your just pressing buttons - a lot less realistic, and a lot less sick imo.

[grey fox]

I just can't believe this. There must be some sort of conspiracy going on here because there are very few games I was going to buy this summer, and this little beauty was top of the list.

[Jim_Fear]

I read this just as I was planning to pre-order from HMV

[CounterWhine]

Rockstar have totally lost the plot lately. It's been PR disaster after PR disaster. It's not surprising their senior management are in total disarray. I'm amazed the staff are able to produce anything at all, let alone something on the scale of GTA IV.

I'm as liberal as anyone but even gamers have standards.

[golden phoenix]

There are alot of stories linking video games with real acts of violence in todays society....so lets blame the video game, not the fact that you can purchase automatic weapons easily in countries like america !!! ...sorry for being so serious but it just me off !!!!..was waiting for this one aswell.

[CounterWhine]

Originally Posted by brownieeyes

There are alot of stories linking video games with real acts of violence in todays society....so lets blame the video game, not the fact that you can purchase automatic weapons easily in countries like america !!! ...sorry for being so serious but it just me off !!!!..was waiting for this one aswell.

Nowhere in the judgement do they state that the game has been rejected because of a link between video games and violence.

19th June 2007
BBFC Rejects Video Game Manhunt 2

The BBFC has rejected the video game Manhunt 2. This means that it cannot be legally supplied anywhere in the UK. The game was submitted in both a PS2 and a Nintendo Wii version. The decision was taken by the Director and the Presidential Team of Sir Quentin Thomas, Lord Taylor of Warwick and Janet Lewis-Jones.

David Cooke, Director of the BBFC said:

“Rejecting a work is a very serious action and one which we do not take lightly. Where possible we try to consider cuts or, in the case of games, modifications which remove the material which contravenes the Board’s published Guidelines. In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible. Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing. There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game.

“Although the difference should not be exaggerated the fact of the game’s unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer, together with the different overall narrative context, contribute towards differentiating this submission from the original Manhunt game. That work was classified ‘18’ in 2003, before the BBFC’s recent games research had been undertaken, but was already at the very top end of what the Board judged to be acceptable at that category.”

“Against this background, the Board’s carefully considered view is that to issue a certificate to Manhunt 2, on either platform, would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors, within the terms of the Video Recordings Act, and accordingly that its availability, even if statutorily confined to adults, would be unacceptable to the public.” Under the terms of the Video Recordings Act distributors have the right to appeal the Board’s decision.
Note for Editors

This is the first video game to be refused a classification since Carmageddon in 1997, when that decision was overturned on appeal by the Video Appeals Committee.

Public Enquiries: 020 7440 1570
Press Enquiries Sue Clark: 020 7440 3285
Press Office Manager: 020 7440 0383
Out of Hours Mobile: 07946 423719

It's not as if the BBFC rejects games every week. And Rockstar do have the right of appeal.

[CounterWhine]

This provides some insight into how the BBFC approaches classification of games.

I've highlighted a section which I find particularly interesting but I urge you to read it all. It's a very balanced assessment of the effect of video games on players in my opinion.

April 17th 2007
Playing Video Games - BBFC Publishes Research

Video games tend to polarise opinions in a way that other entertainment media do not. People who do not play them cannot understand their attraction and that lack of understanding can lead to some games being demonised. While there is research designed to show the short term physical reactions of video games players, there is very little information about why people play video games and what impact they think playing games has on them. The BBFC today published the results of a research project involving video games players ranging from children as young as seven through to players in their early 40s; parents of young games players; games industry representatives; and games reviewers.

The research set out to gain insights into a number of issues including:

* the attractions of playing video games;
* what impact games players think playing has on them and their behaviour;
* whether the interactivity element of games alters the experience;
* what players think about the violence in some games;
* how they choose which games to play; and
* what parents think about video games.

The key findings of the research were:

* that children begin playing games at an increasingly early age, but that the overall age of games players is getting older;
* there is a sharp divide between male and female games players in their taste in games and how long they spend playing;
* female games players tend to prefer ‘strategic life simulation’ games like The Sims and puzzle games and spend less time playing than their male counterparts;
* male players favour first ‘person shooter’ and sports games and are much more likely to become deeply absorbed in the play;
* younger games players are influenced to play particular games by peer pressure and word of mouth, but negative press coverage for a game will significantly increase its take up;
* people play games to escape from every day life and to escape to a world of adventure without risk which is under the control of the gamer, unlike the real world;
* games provide a sense of achievement and are active, unlike television and films which are passive. However, games are better at developing action than building character and as such gamers tend to care less about the storyline than making progress in the game;
* gamers appear to forget they are playing games less readily than film goers forget they are watching a film because they have to participate in the game for it to proceed. They appear to non-games players to be engrossed in what they are doing, but, they are concentrating on making progress, and are unlikely to be emotionally involved;
* gamers claim that playing games is mentally stimulating and that playing develops hand eye coordination;
* violence in games, in the sense of eliminating obstacles, is built into the structure of some games and is necessary to progress through the game. It contributes to the tension because gamers are not just shooting, they are vulnerable to being shot and most gamers are concentrating on their own survival rather than the damage they are inflicting on the characters in the game. While there is an appeal in being able to be violent without being vulnerable to the consequences which similar actions in real life would create, gamers are aware that they are playing a game and that it is not real life;
* gamers are aware that violence in games is an issue and younger players find some of the violence upsetting, particularly in games rated for adults. There is also concern that in some games wickedness prevails over innocence. However, most gamers are not seriously concerned about violence in games because they think that the violence on television and in films is more upsetting and more real;
* gamers are virtually unanimous in rejecting the suggestion that video games encourage people to be violent in real life or that they have become desensitised. They see no evidence in themselves or their friends who play games that they have become more violent in real life. As one participant said: “I no more feel that I have actually scored a goal than I do that I have actually killed someone. I know it’s not real. The emphasis is on achievement.”;
* non-games playing parents are concerned about the amount of time their children, particularly boys, spend playing games and would prefer that they were outside in the fresh air. However, they are more concerned about the ‘stranger-danger’ of internet chat rooms. While the violence in games surprises them and concerns some of them, they are confident that their children are well balanced enough to not be influenced by playing violent games;
* while parents agree that there should be regulation of games some are happy to give their children adult games because they are “only games”.

David Cooke, Director of the BBFC said:
“The BBFC classified just under three hundred video games last year. Most games in the UK are classified under a pan-European voluntary system, but those with adult content are required to come to us. We take this part of our responsibilities under the Video Recordings Act very seriously. Our examiners actually play the games for up to five hours, assessing all levels of the games and considering all the key issues. Players and the parents of young players can be sure that all aspects of the game have been taken into account before reaching a classification. We require key issues to be flagged and aids such as cheat codes to be supplied to us. We take context into account, and examine works in a way which is as thorough and penetrating as anywhere in the world.

“The element of interactivity in games carries some weight when we are considering a video game. We were particularly interested to see that this research suggests that, far from having a potentially negative impact on the reaction of the player, the very fact that they have to interact with the game seems to keep them more firmly rooted in reality. People who do not play games raise concerns about their engrossing nature, assuming that players are also emotionally engrossed. This research suggests the opposite; a range of factors seems to make them less emotionally involving than film or television. The adversaries which players have to eliminate have no personality and so are not real and their destruction is therefore not real, regardless of how violent that destruction might be. This firm grasp on reality seems to extend to younger players, but this is no reason to allow them access to adult rated games, as they themselves often admit that they find the violence in games like Manhunt very upsetting. Parents should not treat video games in the same way they would board games. We will continue to examine very carefully those games which come to us, to flag any concerns we have and, if necessary, to use our statutory powers.

“There is no question that video games are an important form of entertainment for an ever increasing number of people. As the technology improves the games will become more and more realistic and it is important that games are properly rated to protect younger players from the games with adult content, which the BBFC does. This research provides some valuable insights into why people play video games and what effect they think playing has on themselves and friends. It has also highlighted parental attitudes to video games. We hope that it will provide some food for thought for the industry, and everyone who has an interest in the impact of games and we will be taking the research outcomes into account as we review our games classification policies over the coming months.”


Notes for Editors

1. The research was carried out by Cragg Ross Dawson and was qualitative and consisted of interviews and discussions with people who play games. There was also field work with parents, people involved in the production of games, games designers and games reviewers writing in the specialist press. These were carried out in Edinburgh, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle upon Tyne, Radlett in Hertfordshire, Croydon and greater London.
2. Copies of the report as well as a summary of the main findings can be downloaded from the BBFC website, or copies can be obtained from the BBFC Press Office.


Public Enquiries: 020 7440 1570
Press Enquiries Sue Clark: 020 7440 3285
Press Office Manager: 020 7440 0383
Out of Hours Mobile: 07946 423719

[Steve170]

Whilst this particular BBFC judgement didn't mention any link between games and violence, every report I've read on it mentions the original Manhunt with the accusation that 'it was blamed for a murder'. It tempting to think that the BBFC were well aware of this and it may have played a part in their decision on Manhunt 2.

Now, what really gets my goat is this constant reference to the murder case in every report. From what I remember, the Police went to the trouble of releasing a statement saying there was no evidence whatsoever that the game played any part in the murder and the motive was purely robbery. The murderer was a hopeless junkie who beat his 'friend' to death so he could sell his possessions to buy drugs. If I remember correctly, it even emerged that the murderer did not own the game, it was in fact the victim who had it and a rumour/piece of gossip had eventually mutated into the usual rubbish of the murder being 'obsessed with a violent video game'.

You can bet that today's newspapers won't let a few simple facts stand in the way of a story about 'sick video games that have been linked to brutal murders'. I think the media portrayal annoys me more than the actual banning of the game! That said, I do think it comes down to the image of video games being for children. A violent game should be given an 18 certificate and parents should take responsibility for making sure their kids don't get hold of it.

[CounterWhine]

I agree that the press are a bunch of muppets that will pervert this for their own ends. IIRC, the copy of manhunt referred to in all those press reports was owned by the victim rather than the murderer. Still, if it sells papers...

[golden phoenix]

[QUOTE=DavidR;5001327]Nowhere in the judgement do they state that the game has been rejected because of a link between video games and violence.


youre correct it doesnt, what i was trying to say is....video games, films etc have often been blamed for acts of violence carried out on victim/s. which included the first version of manhunt, which has been pointed out in this thread, had no foundation in the murder case it was connected to.

So my point (looking at the bigger picture) was made on the media hesteria, often whipped up time and time again in the.....the killer was a loner and had a large collection of violent video games and movies..instead of looking at factors like...social background, upbringing, environment, mental health and the ease of getting guns in todays society.

obviously i realise that this may not be the reason why this game has not been given a certificate at all in this country, but it does have a strong influence in organisations such as the bbfc.

And the article which has been posted from the bbfc gives a really interesting insight into there processes of determining certification.

thanks for that!

[Mickus]

...before this blew up I had absolutely no interest in MH2. Now I want it to see what all the fuss is about!

[russd1978]

Originally Posted by Mickus

...before this blew up I had absolutely no interest in MH2. Now I want it to see what all the fuss is about!

This is exactly what Rockstar want - and IMHO their PR is doing a great job. Whats the biggest advert you can have? People discussing the "banned" game. People will import this, and it will sell well. If it wasnt for the ban, the publicity wouldnt be there. I bet Rockstar are over the moon with the BBFC decison!

[AJUK]

Consider for one moment that in Manhunt 2 you can, Wii remote and nunchuk in hands, use a pair of pliers to clamp onto an enemy's testicles and literally tear them from his body in a bloody display; and if that weren't enough, you'll take one of the poor victim's vertebrae along with his manhood. Or, if you'd prefer, you can use a saw blade and cut upward into a foe's groin and buttocks, motioning forward and backward with the Wii remote as you go. But believe it or not, there is much more to Manhunt 2 than mutilation and mayhem. This is a game that begins with the subject of psychosis.

wow, sounds great, now i really want it !

[CounterWhine]

Originally Posted by russd1978

I bet Rockstar are over the moon with the BBFC decison!

I doubt it. This sort of thing costs Take-Two Interactive (Rockstar's parent company) millions.

At the annual meeting on March 29, 2007, Take-Two investors ousted five of six board members, including the chief executive in response to various PR disasters and other scandals. Details here.

I'll side with Take Two on the general issue of game censorship and I think that Jack Thompson and his ilk are pond scum but the corporate governance at Take Two has been a joke.

I just hope the new board can gain control of things and the company can concentrate it's efforts on making the kind of great games we know they're capable of for a change.

[hottstuff]

A game full of substance , i bet.
Wouldn't have batted an eyelid at this game until it was banned.

[mattrixdesign2]

Never seen/played Manhunt, then read a preview in Edge about the Wii version, it sounded interesting - but I didn't realise just how far they would go with the violence etc. It seems well OTT to me, there is no need to push the violence that far, if they game/control is good enough then it could have succeeded for that alone, not by getting a "bad reputation". There are games out there with the options to be violent or do things in more humane ways. MGS springs to mind, you can kill people, or knock them out then hide them away

[Mr_Twister]

I feel slightly confused tbh, I've always been pro free speech etc and, by extension, anti-censorship as long as the checks and balances are in place to at least try and stop material getting into the wrong hands. The reason I'm confused is that I am finding myself thinking that the Wii control system is indeed one step too far, which surprises me. Am I hypocritical to think a release on PS2 and PSP would be OK? The thought of using the Wii-mote in the way described disturbs me greatly but playing using a normal controller doesn't. Presumably in the light of this decision we can expect to see stores in the US pulling the game as well and Mr Thompson getting on his high horse as usual. This decision could (and probably will) have repercussions outwith the UK - let's watch and see. I sincerely doubt, as has been said above, that Rockstar are in any way pleased by this decision.

On another note, as systems and control methods change, presumably the BBFC are going to have to redefine their approach to classifying games. I wonder if we can expect more refusals in future?

[hottstuff]

Originally Posted by Mr_Twister

The reason I'm confused is that I am finding myself thinking that the Wii control system is indeed one step too far, which surprises me. Am I hypocritical to think a release on PS2 and PSP would be OK? The thought of using the Wii-mote in the way described disturbs me greatly but playing using a normal controller doesn't. ?

Good point.
I suppose simulating the decaptiation of head with your hands whilst watching the remnants spill all over the place on the screen , could be very damaging to the mind of a person , who is far from the edge of reason.

[Goooner]

Originally Posted by hottstuff

Good point.
I suppose simulating the decaptiation of head with your hands whilst watching the remnants spill all over the place on the screen , could be very damaging to the mind of a person , who is far from the edge of reason.

Surely, there will be plenty of other factors that will damage the mind of a person far from the edge of reason, without the help of video games. If they're that mentally ill, then surely they should already be under some form of care anyway, where they wouldn't have access to this sort of thing.

[hottstuff]

Originally Posted by Goooner

Surely, there will be plenty of other factors that will damage the mind of a person far from the edge of reason, without the help of video games. If they're that mentally ill, then surely they should already be under some form of care anyway, where they wouldn't have access to this sort of thing.

We always hear that argument mate , oh they would have done it anyway.
The fact is , it is an OTT game that should be rightly , categorised in the same area as hardcore porn.
And you don't go and buy that in your local Game/smyths do you?

And on your mentally ill point , a lot of people who have comitted the most foul crimes of history were proven to be sane at the time , that doesn't mean that there wasn't something wrong upstairs though.

There are a lot of people far from the edge of reason amongst us , some even frequent forums.lol

If there wasnt those amongst us that didn't harbour fantasies of acting out things like this , then we wouldnt be talking about this eh?

[CounterWhine]

Originally Posted by Goooner

Surely, there will be plenty of other factors that will damage the mind of a person far from the edge of reason, without the help of video games. If they're that mentally ill, then surely they should already be under some form of care anyway, where they wouldn't have access to this sort of thing.

There are other factors but the BBFC still has a duty to perform irrespective of there being other threats to the wellbeing of the people they are charged to protect.

[Darth_terra]

Originally Posted by russd1978

This is exactly what Rockstar want - and IMHO their PR is doing a great job. Whats the biggest advert you can have? People discussing the "banned" game. People will import this, and it will sell well. If it wasnt for the ban, the publicity wouldnt be there. I bet Rockstar are over the moon with the BBFC decison!

I doubt they would be over the moon, as PS2 games are not region free so the only way your going to be able play the import is if your PS2 is chipped or you have a import Ps2 which many do not, Rockstar would rather have as many as possible get the game than the few that could with chipped or imported systems no matter how much publicity the game gets for the ban.

[Killie81]

Surely it will be possible to buy this game in other European Countries were it has not been banned providing they still come with English Language? I mean European Region is all the same isn't it?

*shrugs* Wasn't that bothered about getting it to be honest anyway