High end Plasma versus 1080P Projector

[Cyprio]

Does a midrange 1080p Projector, for example, a Mitsubishi HC6500 or a Panasonic E3000 or Sanyo Z3000, equal a Pioneer Kuro - or any other high end Plasma - in terms of picture quality, or do I have to purchase a high end projector to achieve this ?.

I know a Projector would have to be viewed in an ideal set-up, for example a 'Bat cave' or like, in order to maximise performance, so perhaps this is probably aimed at someone who owns both tv and projector, or someone who has demoed both technology's.

Any advice would help me in my decision as to whether to follow the Projector route or otherwise.

Cheers

[KelvinS1965]

I would say that unless in a total 'Batcave' then maybe an AE3000 would struggle to give the same effect as having a 'big Kuro'. I've just upgraded from an AE3000 to a HD350 and unless I put up my 'Bat Tent' and put some dark throws over the other sofa, etc then I don't get that depth of image that (I think) you're looking for. It's specifically having dark walls and ceilings that I'm talking about as having no ambient light is only part of the issue.

I suspect you may have to look at either a JVC HD350, the new Optoma HD82 or maybe the Sony VWL80 and reduce room reflections as much as is practical (and not to mention having zero ambient light). If you can't meet the above room criteria, you may be dissapointed, though sometimes size is just as important as quality and you can't help but be drawn into the picture.

It really is a different 'feel' watching a PJ, especially if you go for a 2.35:1 screen as I have done....I never watch BluRay films on the TV (only SD broadcast ones) and equally I don't tend to watch TV programs on the PJ, so the content generally matches each screen's proportions. I hardly ever watch TV without my laptop on, but when I watch a film on the PJ, the lights go off and the film takes priority, so you tend to focus more on the film when using a PJ. All IMHO and YMMV.

[Cyprio]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

I would say that unless in a total 'Batcave' then maybe an AE3000 would struggle to give the same effect as having a 'big Kuro'. I've just upgraded from an AE3000 to a HD350 and unless I put up my 'Bat Tent' and put some dark throws over the other sofa, etc then I don't get that depth of image that (I think) you're looking for. It's specifically having dark walls and ceilings that I'm talking about as having no ambient light is only part of the issue.

I suspect you may have to look at either a JVC HD350, the new Optoma HD82 or maybe the Sony VWL80 and reduce room reflections as much as is practical (and not to mention having zero ambient light). If you can't meet the above room criteria, you may be dissapointed, though sometimes size is just as important as quality and you can't help but be drawn into the picture.

It really is a different 'feel' watching a PJ, especially if you go for a 2.35:1 screen as I have done....I never watch BluRay films on the TV (only SD broadcast ones) and equally I don't tend to watch TV programs on the PJ, so the content generally matches each screen's proportions. I hardly ever watch TV without my laptop on, but when I watch a film on the PJ, the lights go off and the film takes priority, so you tend to focus more on the film when using a PJ. All IMHO and YMMV.

Hi, and thanks for your advice.
I think all that's left for me to do is to have a couple of demo's and who knows, I may be surprised at how good a PJ is.
I do take your point, regarding the feeling of watching a PJ on a large screen, it must be quite an experience.

[MIB]

Projector vs Kuro......exactly what I demoed this weekend.

Mitsubishi HC7000 vs Pioneer 6090.

If you have the space and can control the light when required then for Blu-ray a projector is the way to go IMO. Just the sheer scale of picture draws you into the film. The 60" Kuro is very good indeed but it still feels like you're watching a big telly. Picture quality was equally good in a dark room, the differentiating factor for me was image size. If you want to be able to view with ambient light then maybe the Kuro is the better compromise.

I was trying to decide whether to ditch my 42" PHD8 plasma and 65" PJ and get the 60" Kuro. Getting the demo has made my mind up that a Plasma and PJ setup is the way to go as I'd miss the more cinematic experience I get with Planar.

I haven't demoed many projectors yet but the HC7000 seems like a good one. Couldn't spot any obvious flaws. Black levels appeared pretty good for an LCD and the shadow detail was clearly better than the Planar manages. What really surprised me was how well the £500 720p Planar held up against these £2500 - £3200 units (comparison obviously from memory with different screen/room). The only areas where I thought to myself, yes thats clearly better was in the shadow detail and obviously no RBE.

Try and get a demo - really helps to make your mind up

[monkeykong]

If the question was 100" midrange PJ image vs 100" Kuro image....I'd go for the Kuro every time.
But the reality is that modern PJ's are so good that they give excellent images regardless of PJ technology. The PJ's you mentioned should all throw a fine image, just dim the lights or turn them off and you'll be fine. Bat caves improve on an image incrementaly and are not essential for PJ enjoyment IMO.

[Anim]

My dad has a 55" Sony LCD, he loves it but its not comparable to a projector, the big screen you get from a projector beats everything TV based (for me). He has convenience of just switch on and go, during the day etc and I have the wow factor of filling one end of my living room with a stunning picture that really is the home cinema experience.

[KelvinS1965]

Originally Posted by monkeykong

The PJ's you mentioned should all throw a fine image, just dim the lights or turn them off and you'll be fine. Bat caves improve on an image incrementaly and are not essential for PJ enjoyment IMO.

As the OP was specifically asking if a 1080p PJ could match a Kuro in terms of picture quality I think it is critical that the room is completely dark and reflections minimised. Even a HD750 or perhaps a more expensive SIM2 or similar would not produce anything like a Kuro if the lights are only dimmed and the walls are light in colour.

I don't disagree that you can enjoy a projector with ambient light and not in a BatCave, with family round I leave a low power lamp on myself. However as the OP seemed to be searching for a high quality result, I felt it only fair to warn him that it could prove dissapointing if his room isn't ideal.

All this is moot until the OP has a demo and can deceide for himself if the result is good enough for him. Very few demo rooms seem to be Batcave like (incase it scares off the customers was the reason one place gave me, so they make the demo room like any other living room), so it should give a good idea what it will be like at home. If you feel the need to improve the PQ, try reading up on the 'maximising image contrast' thread, where many there will tell you that room improvements are more than incremental.

[Phill1978]

PJ definatley, as said the technology in PJ`s now is amazing, 7 speed DLP`s zerp rainbow, full HD, 80"-120" image. the only problem is light control.

have a look on the IN81 thread at anibaps photos to convince you further, he hasnt done one recently of him stood beside it but the quality of detail and colour looks to beat any flat screen (i saw looks, as ive viewed his images through a pc LCD ) you think its a small screen of very high quality until you realise it dwarfs him in size !

my own W5000 benq on 1080p is great, i know its not perfect, especially with the light walls i have, and also i belive my image is ever so slightly ghosted as i think my lense is not 100% but in the end it was one of the first 1080p dlp`s out, only cost £1250 and i got an image better than my (amazing on blueray) philips 47" 1080p LCD and that cost £2300 new and is half the size, no image motion bluring, no extra jaggies like LCD seems to enhance, just a large cinema like image with no banding and beautiful colours. its so good even on my paltry £70 pull down screen and light walls that im no longer using a lcd everything is watched on the PJ.


still, cant wait to move the game on and get a dedicated room with a new SXRD or 3D capable PJ in the future

[Dav1dF]

It depends what you class as a 'high end' projector. FOr many, this usually means projectors above about £5k, so based on that, I'd say no, you don't need a high end projector to outperform a plasma.

At the moment, the Pioneer KRP Kuro's are classed as high end plasmas, which range from just over £2,000 to about £4,000. As much as a 60" plasma looks so much more impressive than a 50" or 42", ther's no comparison to a projector using a 6' or 8' screen. It just adds so much more to a movie, and tends to give you a picture that's much more in line with the soundstage of a good AV system.

So those that are thinking of epsnding close on £4k for a top notch 60" plasma can get something like the Mitsubishi HC7000 which is pin sharp, great black levels, and dead silent as well. Imaginea picture better than the Kuro's, but bigger!

Many people nowadays don't watch much TV, so a smaller LCD for viewing news etc is a good idea. But anybody moving to a good quality projector for their AV system wil never look back.......

[Demon]

My brother has a 8 series Kuro Pioneer and a Sanyo PLV-Z2000, I also have the same PJ..

However, he has converted his garage into a bat-cave, I have my PJ installed in my front room (light walls/ceiling).

I had a mate with a 60" Pioneer Kuro pop around and he was quite complimentary about the PJ and felt the increased scale made up for the obvious increase in black level (that is surprisingly good for the room conditions), to be blunt he has never seen a PJ before, and was pretty overwhelmed with the clarity and colour depth, believing PJ's to be very soft and poorly lit poor IQ devices.

However, my brothers install in a bat cave is nothing short of stunning, the black level (which is not quite upto AE3000 levels) is pretty miraculous really, and the contrast is eye-searingly good, although a few minor aspects are not Kuro standards, overall I'd struggle to think anyone would not prefer a bat-caved reasonable PJ over a kuro.

I myself would not swap to a 60" Kuro from my less then perfect front room setup, and find the scale/contrast to be sufficient to suffer the slight black level increase.

[monkeykong]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

As the OP was specifically asking if a 1080p PJ could match a Kuro in terms of picture quality I think it is critical that the room is completely dark and reflections minimised. Even a HD750 or perhaps a more expensive SIM2 or similar would not produce anything like a Kuro if the lights are only dimmed and the walls are light in colour.

I don't disagree that you can enjoy a projector with ambient light and not in a BatCave, with family round I leave a low power lamp on myself. However as the OP seemed to be searching for a high quality result, I felt it only fair to warn him that it could prove dissapointing if his room isn't ideal.

All this is moot until the OP has a demo and can deceide for himself if the result is good enough for him. Very few demo rooms seem to be Batcave like (incase it scares off the customers was the reason one place gave me, so they make the demo room like any other living room), so it should give a good idea what it will be like at home. If you feel the need to improve the PQ, try reading up on the 'maximising image contrast' thread, where many there will tell you that room improvements are more than incremental.

There are many paths to achieving good black levels if that is the top priority. You could use a CRT projector, you could use a good grey screen, you could cover your walls in black velvet, hell you could get the matching black velvet wardrobe with slippers.

My walls currently are not black and still my screen give's exceptional blacks, these I can compare to my 42" Fuji 58 series plasma. I'm not advocating against a bat cave as I tried it my self last year with maplins black speaker cloth to great effect. Unfortunately I could not cope with an all black room so I tried out a few other ways to improve my black levels and have finally settled on a Firehawk G3. The image is not too far from a blackened out room, this is all subjective though as I never once took any readings; I just let my eyes do the deciding.

Cyprio do some demoing before you get your paint brush out. I think you can achieve great black levels with the right PJ and screen combo, not as good as a bat cave but pretty darn close.

[KelvinS1965]

Interesting that you find the Firehawk G3 similar to another screen in a blacked out room, shame they're so expensive as I would have bought one myself.

BTW,how did you know I wear a velvet wardrobe and slippers?

I'll be interested to see your opinions after you've had a demo Cyprio. At least if you are underwhelmed with the blacks, you've got a few pointers in this thread on how to improve them. If you like it enough as it is then you'll be all set. I'll bet that you the PJ route....the size is addictive.

[isayisay]

If you like watching movies you just cant beat a projector for sheer wow factor i have a 720p optoma hd700x which is a budget pj but every-time i switch it on the quality of the picture amazes me,with that and 5.1 sound and a 84"image you just cant beat it imo.Yes kuro is the TV daddy but watching the same source on a much bigger area you wont be disappointed.

[Cyprio]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Interesting that you find the Firehawk G3 similar to another screen in a blacked out room, shame they're so expensive as I would have bought one myself.

BTW,how did you know I wear a velvet wardrobe and slippers?

I'll be interested to see your opinions after you've had a demo Cyprio. At least if you are underwhelmed with the blacks, you've got a few pointers in this thread on how to improve them. If you like it enough as it is then you'll be all set. I'll bet that you the PJ route....the size is addictive.

I must admit, I was all set to commit myself to a PJ setup, until recently when I discovered that the price of a 60" Kuro has dropped significantly.
My concern now is the rising cost of AV gear and how much the increases (if any) will affect projectors.
I guess we'll all be put out of our misery in a few days.
Dav1df, of 'Frank Harvey Hi-Fi' has intimated that the price of the 60" Kuro's will remain the same for the time being, so at least that's one consolation.