I need to replace my new HD65

gawdblesshim · 23-02-2009, 11:24 PM

Just came through today, and although the picture is excellent i suffer really badly from the rainbow effect.

I can either send it back to the manufacturer or sell it, but my question is-

What other projector could match it for around 500 quid, but won't give me possible rainbows?

Adama · 24-02-2009, 12:01 AM

If you can't get used to rainbows on a HD65 you'll have to go for an LCD - Google "lcd 720p projector" - You're looking at £600 at least...

gawdblesshim · 24-02-2009, 12:04 AM

Woof! Not what i wanted to hear. Thats blown the budget a bit! Do LCDs generally give better PQ than DLPs?

Cheers mate.

Adama · 24-02-2009, 12:38 AM

To be honest... No... Nothing touches a DLP in my book - However with an LCD - no colour wheel = no rainbows - Believe it or not your brain does adapt eventually and you'll see rainbows less and less - I never see them now, after six months viewing - Of course everybody's different and there is no straight answer for you I'm afraid.... Go with your gut

TrophyJem · 24-02-2009, 9:01 AM

I struggled a bit with the rainbow effect when I first installed mine (Christmas), but I've got used to it now and only see it on the odd occasion.

The family all thought I was mad as they couldn't see it at all.

gawdblesshim · 24-02-2009, 9:57 AM

Thats interesting you both say you get used to it. I was reading another couple of threads where the consensus was that it doesnt really get any better.

If LCD isnt as good and will cost me a lot more then i dont really know what to do. Ive already spent a fair bit on cables, a mount, and a sky hd box. It would be a bit of a waste to give up on the idea.

Would getting a DLP with a faster colour wheel make much of a difference?

wrist · 24-02-2009, 10:55 AM

You Need To Give It A Bit Of Time Before Ditching It.

I Have Owned Mine for Around 5 Or 6 Weeks.

I Didn't Really Notice Any RBE At All Then When I Did See One I Went Looking For Them Lol.

You Really Need To Give it A Few Weeks And Watch A Few Movies Before Getting Shut Of It. Also Changing Settings Can Help.

I Find When Watching HD Stuff Like BD Or SkyHD I Don't See Any, On SD Stuff I Do Notice It Occasionally. Also When Watching Whilst Alcohol Induced They Appear More Often Lol.

The Last Few AVCHD I Have Watched I Never Saw Any RBE At All And My Wife Or Children Haven't Mentioned Anything About It.

I Might Be Wrong But Give It A Few Weeks Of Movie Viewing Before Getting Shut

marty2005 · 24-02-2009, 12:53 PM

I think you'd get used to the rbe, I haven't seen it yet and keep looking for it.

I remember years ago when a guy wore glasses that made the world upside down, after two weeks the upside down world became normal and his brain adjusted to it.

Can't remember what the program was, James Burke I think.

mamasou · 25-02-2009, 3:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gawdblesshim

Would getting a DLP with a faster colour wheel make much of a difference?

Anything above 5x colour wheel speed will be almost rainbow-free.

The only problem is that most DLP projector manufacturers deliberately and suspiciously hide colour wheel speed infomation...

That is almost always the case with below 4x pojectors.

But for a 5x or even more for a 6x unit the brochures proudly announce it..!.

They think that dlp buyers are morons or something...

Trashuk · 25-02-2009, 6:27 PM

me personally would stick with it for a few weeks longer and see if you can adapt or stop looking for them...i first of all could see them if i look really fast around and thought it was going to be a issue. But i learned to live with it now i dont see them at all unless i actually try and see them. I love me HD65 to bits was the best thing i brought in yonks and still is...i dont know if the screen size got anything to do with it mine is a 108".

gawdblesshim · 25-02-2009, 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trashuk

me personally would stick with it for a few weeks longer and see if you can adapt or stop looking for them...i first of all could see them if i look really fast around and thought it was going to be a issue. But i learned to live with it now i dont see them at all unless i actually try and see them. I love me HD65 to bits was the best thing i brought in yonks and still is...i dont know if the screen size got anything to do with it mine is a 108".

I am going to keep it for the time being to see if it improves but research replacements at the same time. I watched the football on it last night and it was great, but then theres not much contrast in that.

Unfortunately i dont need to look hard to see the rainbows. I was watching 24 and even looking from jacks chin to his forehead gave me a rainbow on his nose!

Has anyone else who has suffered from rainbows seen a 5x or higher colour wheel? Did it make a difference?

KelvinS1965 · 25-02-2009, 7:18 PM

Try using the lower lamp mode if there is one, as dimming the image has been know to help (not with me unfortunately as I like a DLP picture, but not the rainbows

). Another option is to use an ND2 filter which will reduce brightness and give deeper blacks (and dimmer whites of course). This might help you get accustomed to it now you already have it.....I didn't dare take the risk after I saw multiple rainbows on an Infocus IN76 I demo'd once (and I really liked the picture otherwise).

gawdblesshim · 25-02-2009, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Try using the lower lamp mode if there is one, as dimming the image has been know to help (not with me unfortunately as I like a DLP picture, but not the rainbows

). Another option is to use an ND2 filter which will reduce brightness and give deeper blacks (and dimmer whites of course). This might help you get accustomed to it now you already have it.....I didn't dare take the risk after I saw multiple rainbows on an Infocus IN76 I demo'd once (and I really liked the picture otherwise).

Cheers mate. I tried dimming the picture and it did help a little, but they were still there. It would be a shame to calibrate the pj just to eliminate rainbows.

I tried wearing sunglasses and that helped immensely!

A guy in my work has the hd80 which has a 6x colour wheel. I'll try to go to his house at some point to see if the faster wheel helps. If i can manage that i'll post the results.

mamasou · 26-02-2009, 1:03 AM

Im pretty sure hd65 uses a 3x colour wheel speed since i once called optoma and they told me that 3x is what hd65 uses but it has been a long time so i have to re-confirm that with optoma to make sure.

I do use an optoma HD73 which has a 7 segment 5x speed wheel so its almost rainbow free.

gawdblesshim · 26-02-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamasou

Im pretty sure hd65 uses a 3x colour wheel speed since i once called optoma and they told me that 3x is what hd65 uses but it has been a long time so i have to re-confirm that with optoma to make sure.

I do use an optoma HD73 which has a 7 segment 5x speed wheel so its almost rainbow free.

Did you once own the hd65? Did you notice a big difference when using the faster colour wheel?

It looks like the hd65 has a 4x wheel.

mamasou · 26-02-2009, 1:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gawdblesshim

Did you once own the hd65? Did you notice a big difference when using the faster colour wheel?

It looks like the hd65 has a 4x wheel.

I have tried a 2x and it was a nightmare.

My hd73 is no problem with the 5x.

And im pretty sue hd65 has a 3x wheel.

If you have a doubt call optoma!

TrevZero · 26-02-2009, 6:22 PM

I have had 3 DLPs over the last 4-5 years - Ive never seen a rainbow effect, and no one visiting has ever commented. I have excellent vision (for a 40 year old i guess).

But I wondered if what might be different is the screen - we bought a very nice Owl Othello screen.

I wonder if the latest glass beaded screens emphasise the rainbow effect, or the old fallback of a painted wall is something to do with this?

wrist · 26-02-2009, 6:37 PM

The HD65 Has A 4x Wheel.

duncanr · 26-02-2009, 8:03 PM

Further to the info I posted about the LCD Epson TW420 on your other thread, the price from Epson direct has dropped to £489 (click here) - although it also says they're out of stock at the moment, even though they emailed me with the price drop tonight (!).

Also, re. RBE - I had to return the first PJ I bought, a BenQ W100, as not only could I see the rainbows almost everywhere I looked, but the effect actually irritated my eyes severely, to the extent that the feeling didn't disappear until the next morning (this after half an hour or less of viewing). And it affected my wife just as badly - she couldn't bear watching it.

So, the effect may well diminish, but frankly it was too painful to see out the 'wearing in' period. Plus, if you're paying pretty big money for a big screen experience, 'putting up with' irritating optical effects seems a little paradoxical - I'd rather have blacks less detailed than flashing lights every time I move my head or eyes across the screen...

...but, apparently many folks here don't see them, or aren't affected adversely, and think that we who believe in rainbows also believe we've been abducted by aliens (the same ones who faked the Moon landings for NASA).

gawdblesshim · 26-02-2009, 9:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanr

Further to the info I posted about the LCD Epson TW420 on your other thread, the price from Epson direct has dropped to £489 (click here) - although it also says they're out of stock at the moment, even though they emailed me with the price drop tonight (!).

Also, re. RBE - I had to return the first PJ I bought, a BenQ W100, as not only could I see the rainbows almost everywhere I looked, but the effect actually irritated my eyes severely, to the extent that the feeling didn't disappear until the next morning (this after half an hour or less of viewing). And it affected my wife just as badly - she couldn't bear watching it.

So, the effect may well diminish, but frankly it was too painful to see out the 'wearing in' period. Plus, if you're paying pretty big money for a big screen experience, 'putting up with' irritating optical effects seems a little paradoxical - I'd rather have blacks less detailed than flashing lights every time I move my head or eyes across the screen...

...but, apparently many folks here don't see them, or aren't affected adversely, and think that we who believe in rainbows also believe we've been abducted by aliens (the same ones who faked the Moon landings for NASA).

Haha! I think id rather an alien landed in my back garden than put up with these bloody rainbows! Its testament to how apparent they are to me that i'm probably going to have to bump up my budget by a couple of hundred quid to get a replacement.

I read the review for the epson, and although it scores well in some areas it worries me that the reviewer described black lavels as 'depressing' and that there is no advertised contrast ratio.

Ive probably just become accustomed to reading the glowing reviews for the hd65 these past few weeks. I think i would need to spend serious cash to get an lcd as good as the hd65. Im hoping when i go to my workmates house to see his hd80 that the 6x colour wheel eliminates the rainbows, and i can spend the extra money on a better dlp... maybe even 1080.

Don't let the non-believers get you down!

mamasou · 27-02-2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrist

The HD65 Has A 4x Wheel.

To put that straight once and for all...

The HD65 uses DarkChip II and has a 6 segments 3x colour wheel.

This is official technical data.

mamasou · 27-02-2009, 12:17 AM

And about rainbows...

I have tried 2x DLPs = rainbows popping out of the screen.. miserable

I have tied 3x DLPs = rainbows visible quite often.. annoying

I have tried 4x DLPs = rainbows not very visible... acceptable

I have tried 5x DLPs = rainbows 95% gone... near perfect!!

And now that there are a few 6x DLP (HD800x for one) im pretty sure that rainbows u would see only after the rain...

So above 5x quite simply... rainbow problem solved.

ps: please since there are a few 1500 dollars 5x and even 6x DLP pojectors out there dont waste your money in all these ridiculous 3 LCD projectors anymore (i have also had the 3LCD Epson EMP TW700 which was a joke with ridiculous colour saturation and blue/gray for blacks...)

Ronan1 · 27-02-2009, 10:27 AM

I was really annoyed to find that I could see rainbow from my HD65 as soon as I started it up but decided to bear it out. I had also read that you get used to it and with this in mind I stuck with it and after a month did not see them at all. Now I just enjoy my BD movies on a 92 inch screen without any side effects at all. I will upgrade to full HD eventually as I have the bug but I was the only one in my house who noticed rbe and the brain just cancels it out after a while. Just need to be a little patient!

gawdblesshim · 27-02-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamasou

And about rainbows...

I have tried 2x DLPs = rainbows popping out of the screen.. miserable

I have tied 3x DLPs = rainbows visible quite often.. annoying

I have tried 4x DLPs = rainbows not very visible... acceptable

I have tried 5x DLPs = rainbows 95% gone... near perfect!!

And now that there are a few 6x DLP (HD800x for one) im pretty sure that rainbows u would see only after the rain...

So above 5x quite simply... rainbow problem solved.

ps: please since there are a few 1500 dollars 5x and even 6x DLP pojectors out there dont waste your money in all these ridiculous 3 LCD projectors anymore (i have also had the 3LCD Epson EMP TW700 which was a joke with ridiculous colour saturation and blue/gray for blacks...)

That is exactly the kind of information i was looking for! Im sure ill be going down the dlp route with faster colour wheel. I havent seen any convincing lcd models in my budget range.

Where did you see that the hd65 was 3x? Everywhere ive looked (including here Optoma HD65 Home Theater Projector Review - Overview, Specs
where the review is incredibly thorough) says that its 4x.

TrevZero · 27-02-2009, 2:10 PM

Segment arrangement also influences the degree of rainbow effect. Trouble is I can not find a definitive spec for the segments on an HD65.

A DLP with a colour wheel that includes a white segment should be less susceptible to rainbows than one without at the same speed.

I have seen the HD65 listed as a 7 segment RGB RGB W - which means that at 4x the white segment is available 10 times per frame on a 24fps screen. Assuming that for a pure white object, only the white segment is used this should completely remove rainbow effect.

However this only works 100% if the signal for the object is pure white,(or I guess crosses the threshold for white peaking), if any other colours are required the other segments will be exposed raising the chance of rainbow effects. Of course the white segment does still reduce the amount of time other colour segments are exposed and therefore a DLP with a colour wheel that includes a white segment should be less susceptible to rainbows than one without at the same speed.

However if its a 6 segment RGB RGB or as sometimes specified RGB CYM then to expose white the system has to run a complete combination of at least 3 different colours, resulting in the possibility of a rainbow effect on the trailing side of a moving object.

So does anyone know what the segment spec actually is?

I have always found this site very reliable and it states 4x:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/hd65/

where did the 3x spec come from?

Brokoslav · 27-02-2009, 2:48 PM

That was info i was looking for too before i bought Infocus X9. I found NO official data about this even on Optoma documents. I cant find anything trustworthy. Internet is full of info about 4x (reviewes etc.) but i think it is just copy and paste each to other. I believe HD65 has RGBCMY 2x spin (6000rpm) wheel, just like Infocus X9 or Mitsubishi HC1600. Its sometimes mistaken for RGBRGB 2x spin which is true 4x color speed (like good old Mitsubishi HC1500). Another hint - if there are no official data, expect the worst - 2x speed spin. Confusing..

mamasou · 28-02-2009, 12:37 PM

The data I have posted is official.

However, since it is for the euopean unit i dont know if the USA model would have diffeent specs (i.e. a 4x wheel), but i doubt it.

gawdblesshim · 28-02-2009, 2:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamasou

The data I have posted is official.

However, since it is for the euopean unit i dont know if the USA model would have diffeent specs (i.e. a 4x wheel), but i doubt it.

Cheers mamasou. You don't happen to have a link to this info would you?

**RottenFox** · 28-02-2009, 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamasou

To put that straight once and for all...

The HD65 uses DarkChip II and has a 6 segments 3x colour wheel.

This is official technical data.

The HD65 features a 6 segment colour wheel running at 4X speed.

*thats directly from the service dept.

Brokoslav · 28-02-2009, 6:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RottenFox

The HD65 features a 6 segment colour wheel running at 4X speed.

*thats directly from the service dept.

If thats true then it will make HD65 with 6seg 4x speed spin (12000rpm for 50Hz or 14400rpm for 60Hz) clearly number "1" in that cheap price segment in my eyes. But those speed numbers are strong marketing tool and dont always correspond to motor spin/rpm. Still no info on their PDFs - why. It is clearly very important parameter.
P.S. that speed can be measured or checked from HD65 motor type.