Epson TW2000 and Panasonic PTAE2000

True-Blue · 01-08-2008, 4:17 PM

MOD COMMENT : I have taken the following posts out of the AE2000 thread and gave them a thread of their own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry-Greece

p.s: The Epson is not a bad projector, as it has excellent black levels and provides competent levels of performance, but it is VERY UNSHARP. Go and see it before you buy!

The Panasonic is better in every aspect except the absolute black level. (which is very good anyway).

That's absolute rubbish, you must have seen one with a convergance issue, or not seen one at all - or one that just wasn't focused! The Epson is clearly sharper than the panny. I'm usually restrained with my comments, but you don't know what you're talking about.

The Epson is superior to the panny in almost every regard, with the exception of colour accuracy out of the box.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...cinema-1080ub/ US Version of TW2000

True-Blue · 02-08-2008, 1:13 PM

C'mon Harry-Greece,

Don't be coy, I'm really keen to hear about the back to back comparison you must have done with the Panny and the Epson to be able to make such a sweeping claim

Don't get me wrong the Panny is an excellent PJ and, as I've stated elswhere, I could easily live with one as the performance is very good. But the Espon, a considerably more expensive machine at uk prices, is clearly better. Not just my opinion but an opinion confirmed by 'expert' reviewers...... and I don't mean the likes of 'What Hi-Fi' - which is to AV product reviews what 'the Sun' is to quality journalism.

Black performance, whilst obviously not the only factor that affects a PJ's performance, is very important to overall image quality. If two PJ's have a very comparable colour pallete and all else is more or less equal, but one is significantly better with Blacks and shadow detail than the other.... the one with better black performance will look better.

you state that the Epson provides 'competant levels of performance'..... compared to what?, a £20k Sim ??

For the record, I'll state again, in my humble opinion the Panny is an excellent machine but the Espon is far more than 'competant' when compared to it.

The only thing I really miss about the panny is the remote zoom and focus, where it clearly has and advantage over the Epson as this is missing.

The reason I feel so strongly about this is not because I don't think the panny is excellent, clearly that's not the case - Who started this thread and has posted more screen shots' than anyone else? (many poor quality to be fair)
..... but because (wrongly in my opinion) many people make purchasing decisions based on what they read on these forums.

So to say:-

"The Panasonic is better in every aspect except the absolute black level. (which is very good anyway)."

Which is untrue and completely unfounded, may influenece some purchasers to buy a product which is the inferior machine of the two - and that's just not fair on them.

At european import prices you can buy the TW2000 for under £1800 including the three year bulb and PJ guarantee. This is incredible value compared not only to the Uk price for the panny but on a £ per performance rating against machines like the HD1 and HD100 (again at uk prices)

Sorry to rant, and to all you happy AE2000 owners out there I am in no way rubbishing what is an excellent machine, but Harry the panny is not better than the Epson despite what you may read in some poor quality hi fi mags.

My daughter is due in the next two weeks, but after that if anyone has an AE2000 that they want to bring to my Bat Cave for a direct comparison against the TW2000 I'll happily oblige

Cheers.

Harry-Greece · 02-08-2008, 3:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True-Blue

C'mon Harry-Greece,

Don't be coy, I'm really keen to hear about the back to back comparison you must have done with the Panny and the Epson to be able to make such a sweeping claim

A few months ago the Greek avclub.gr has organized a 4 1080p projector shootout in the lowish price range.
The projectors were the BenQ W5000, Panasonic PT-AE2000E, Sanyo PLV-Z2000, and the Epson TW2000.

The projectors were carefully set up by a skilled ISF Calibrator i must say, and were all perfectly focused.

At least 30-40 people attended this event (obviously in smaller groups at a time), and some findings were unanimous.

All agreed on the fact that the Epson TW2000 was the least sharp of the 4.
The difference in sharpness was night and day between the Epson and the other 3.
Similarly all agreed that the Epson had the best absolute black level, but NOT NECESSARILY the best shadow detail.

In case you can read Greek, have a look at the following 27 page post:
http://www.avclub.gr/forum/showthread.php?t=25858

In the Greek forum i use the handle "Ultra-One", and i have posted many comments about the shootout.

True-Blue · 02-08-2008, 6:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry-Greece

A few months ago the Greek avclub.gr has organized a 4 1080p projector shootout in the lowish price range.
The projectors were the BenQ W5000, Panasonic PT-AE2000E, Sanyo PLV-Z2000, and the Epson TW2000.

The projectors were carefully set up by a skilled ISF Calibrator i must say, and were all perfectly focused.

At least 30-40 people attended this event (obviously in smaller groups at a time), and some findings were unanimous.

All agreed on the fact that the Epson TW2000 was the least sharp of the 4.
The difference in sharpness was night and day between the Epson and the other 3.
Similarly all agreed that the Epson had the best absolute black level, but NOT NECESSARILY the best shadow detail.

In case you can read Greek, have a look at the following 27 page post:
http://www.avclub.gr/forum/showthread.php?t=25858

In the Greek forum i use the handle "Ultra-One", and i have posted many comments about the shootout.

Well all I can say, after living with the AE2000 for six months, and the TW2000 for the last month is that you must have had a duff unit with convergance issues - there is no way that the panny is sharper than the Epson with perfect units. What this says to me is that 40 people have seen a demonstration of an Epson with bad convergence.

There are many (very) happy users of this unit in the states and the only sharpness issues are related to units with miss-convergance.

Your findings are signifcantly different to not just mine, but several well respected professional reviewers (globally). The black performance and shadow detail performance of the Epson is in a different League to the panny and certainly the Sanyo, I haven't seen the Benq as I can't stand rainbows so can't comment on that.

I can't read Greek, but thanks for the Link, but even if I could I have no desire to read through 27 pages of comments about a group shoot out with a faulty TW2000. If you do a little research, you'll see that convergance issues are common on 3 panel LCD PJ's including the TW2000, which is why you should insist on a convergance check if you are going to buy one.

I don't know how similary priced the AE2000 and TW2000 are in Greece, but if they are similar I would suggest you don't view a TW2000 without convergance issues as you'll realise what you could have had.

I would also ask how the comparison was completed. Only one PJ on at a time? what about the room, was it a bat cave and how was light controlled in a large room with 40 people in it ? How Big was the screen and how far away where the Audience sat - although to be honest this is almost irrelvant as the Epson was clearly ill

Cheers.

True-Blue · 02-08-2008, 7:20 PM

I've had a look at your thread and tried using babelfish to translate some of your posts on it.

Based on the Babelfish translation you appear to be saying that (in your opinion) the Epson has has colour issues...... and you say these PJ's were professionaly calibrated before the shoot out

Just how was the Epson calibrated ?, as it would definitely need more work out of the box than the panny.

one of the Epson's (many) strengths is colour accuracy once calibrated.

You also seem to rate the Sanyo as 'nearly exceptional' except for it's black performance

I apologise unreservedly if babelfish is badly translating your posts.

Nick The Ex-Pat · 03-08-2008, 6:08 AM

I'm with True-Blue 100% on this - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the sharpness of the TW2000. I have one and it is razor sharp. And I don't have it maxed out on sharpness either. I have auditioned the Panny AE2000 as well and found the it slight soft, a common experience by the looks on other threads. Still a great machine, just plain ugly as far as looks go though in my opinion.

Have to agree the unit must have been a dud ... colour, black levels are simply stunning on this unit.

PJTX100 · 03-08-2008, 7:57 AM

This is likely to have been a duff unit.

Don't all the other LCD PJs use Epson panels anyway?

Can't see a reason why Epson would make their own variant inferior?

If there was a "night and day difference" then something was clearly amiss.

I do generally applaud these comparative shoot-outs though. A good way to reveal often subtle differences which would be difficult in isolation.

True-Blue · 03-08-2008, 9:09 AM

Morning Harry-Greece,

I've re-read my posts and feel that I come across aggresively and for that I apologise.

You have very few posts here (so far) and so I'd like to say welcome to the forum - genuinely

I've read many posts in the past that seem to be 'quoting' extracts from magazine reviews and I admit that I felt this was the case from your earlier post. This is clearly not the case based on your attendance on the shootout. You have reported your opinion on what you saw with your own eye's - and that's fair enough.

However, I still stand by my comments. The only sensible conclusion I can come to is that the Epson was not within tolerance for panel alignment. This would impact considerably on image sharpness as the red/green/blue panels, and hence pixels, would not line up. I would have thought this would also have a negative impact on how motion appears to be handled, but I don't know for sure - on the basis that an out of focus moving picture must surely look worse than an in focus one.

You do seem to criticse colour accuracy, which is why I asked how the machines where calibrated. The out of the box accuracy of the panny in colour 1 is excellent, far closer to perfect than any of the out of the box options on the TW2000. But, after proper calibration, the TW2000 is reported to have fantastic colour accuracy. I have not had mine calibrated yet as the bulb is still bedding in, but I can report that I've seen a major improvement in image quality with just some basic adjustments.

If the colour reproduction was not great after calibration then I would suggest that the Epson was very sick and not just suffering with panel alignment issues. There is a big difference between full calibration and basic image adjustment. The calibrator would have had to been working for many hours to fully calibrate four projectors - do you know if he was?

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your Panasonic, it is an excellent projector and was the logical choice for you based on your experience of the shootout. It's a real shame that you didn't get to see what a fit and well TW2000 can do, but you won't miss what you haven't seen so it's a bit of a moot point really.

All the best Harry,

Kind Regards from the cloudy UK

Martin.

True-Blue · 03-08-2008, 2:19 PM

Just a further point re motion handling which may have caused a problem, certainly did when I first got mine.

When displaying a 1080p/24 signal the TW2000 was a bit jerky when I first plugged it in. After a bit of messing about I discovered an option in one of the menu's to enable '2/2 pulldown' - after selecting/enabling this, motion was smooth as silk

Harry-Greece · 03-08-2008, 4:39 PM

Hi True-Blue,

To start with, the 4 PJ comparisons were made at a Hi-Fi Shop in a specially treated AV room with dark carpet and dark walls.
The PJ's were projecting in pairs. In my group we had the Sanyo with the Epson, and the BenQ with the Panasonic.
The people in the last group say that they switched projectors, so they had the chance to see other pairs.

Although all PJ's had been calibrated as close to D6500 709 as possible, they had differences in colour.
The Sanyo was a little bit Green, the Epson showed reddish skin tones, the BenQ (with Brilliant Colour ON) was a bit too saturated, and the Panasonic had a slight yellowish tint (had Calibrated Cinema1 mode). The Epson and BenQ also had a slight pink tint on 100% white.

Everyone praised the black level performance of the Epson, but equally complained about its sharpness.
Quite a few people, (including myself) reported that the Epson was also crushing the low IRE's.

In THAT comparison, i was particularly impressed by the Sanyo which had an amazingly sharp picture and very good shadow detail, but absolute black was the worst of the 4.
In the same test, i gave the WORST marks to the Panasonic, as (compared to the super bright BenQ) was dark, unsaturated and unexciting.
In that test, motion handling (24p) was very good for the Sanyo and Panasonic, a bit jerky for the Epson, and appalling for the BenQ.

I visited the shop a few days after, and i have compared the Sanyo projecting alongside the Panasonic.
I have personally adjusted (quickly using DVE HD Basics on Blue-Ray) those 2 PJ's using Pure Cinema mode for the Sanyo, and Colour1 mode for the Panasonic.

I was amazed to see that the supersharp Sanyo (compared to the Epson in the 1st comparison), was not any sharper than the Panasonic, and in addition, colour accuracy and black level performance of the Panasonic was also better than the Sanyo. The Panasonic was also a little bit brighter than the Sanyo. In short, there was nothing that the Sanyo did better than the Panasonic!

I was not impressed by the Epson during the 1st comparison, so i did not do a 1-to-1 comparison between the Panasonic and the Epson.

p.s: In the following page (out of the 27), you can find several screen shots from all PJ's:
http://www.avclub.gr/forum/showthrea...D%F9%ED&page=6

True-Blue · 03-08-2008, 4:46 PM

When you say the PJ's were paired, do you mean they were both on at the same time ?

Harry-Greece · 03-08-2008, 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True-Blue

When you say the PJ's were paired, do you mean they were both on at the same time ?

YES!

See the screenshot in the link of my previous post

Although you cannot get a clear understanding of the sharpness issue, you can see the reddish hue on skin tones.

True-Blue · 03-08-2008, 5:05 PM

Well that's a fatal flaw in assessing a PJ's true capabilities for a start, as the light output from each machine will impact on the others image.

I'd put £50 on the '2/2 pulldown' option not being selected in the Epson's set up menu as on initial start up it is not a default setting. This means the Epson would be jerky on 1080p/24 when in fact it should be very smooth - with 2/2 pulldown enabled.

The crushed blacks and poor shadow detail are more likely a result of the light from the second PJ poluting the Epson's image. This PJ excells in a dark room and having a second PJ running is like having another light on.

The sharpness has to be down to panel alignment, no other logical explanation.

Thanks for taking the time to type a detailed response

Harry-Greece · 04-08-2008, 9:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True-Blue

Well that's a fatal flaw in assessing a PJ's true capabilities for a start, as the light output from each machine will impact on the others image.

I'd put £50 on the '2/2 pulldown' option not being selected in the Epson's set up menu as on initial start up it is not a default setting. This means the Epson would be jerky on 1080p/24 when in fact it should be very smooth - with 2/2 pulldown enabled.

The crushed blacks and poor shadow detail are more likely a result of the light from the second PJ poluting the Epson's image. This PJ excells in a dark room and having a second PJ running is like having another light on.

The sharpness has to be down to panel alignment, no other logical explanation.

Thanks for taking the time to type a detailed response

There is a new article (1 August 2008) on Projector Central, about the 5 most popular low end 1080p projectors including the Panasonic PT-AE2000 and the Epson 1080 UB (TW2000 in Europe).
http://www.projectorcentral.com/1080...projectors.htm

True-Blue · 04-08-2008, 7:05 PM

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the link, but that article says very little and has no significant substance.

If you want a detailed (long term test) review of the AE2000 here's a linky

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/18/P...or-Review.html

And the TW2000 here's another linky

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/21/E...0p-Review.html

If you read these reviews you'll see that both have been completed after many hours of testing.

I can't comment on the TW2000's auto Iris as I don't use it, and I still get much better contrast and blacks than I did with the panny with Auto Iris on. Having said that the panny auto iris was virtually silent and very rarely did I notice it doing it's stuff.