[Howie]

Are dead pixels really frequent and a serious issue if I go LCD?
I demoed a DLP and a LCD and I have to say the LCD looked much crisper and more like HDTV!

Are there any DLP's with a 7000+ contrast ratio, Lumens around 2000 for under 900 quid?

Im now torn between these 2 if I go LCD?

Panasonic AX200 - https://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/pro...PT-AX200E.html - saw a demo, and it looked nice in ambient light, almost like HDTV!
btw is there a difference between the 200 and 200E? Cant seem to find any info on this...

Sanyo PLV-Z5 -
http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/proj...yo_PLV-Z5.html - incredilbe contrast, but low lumens.. havent seen it demoed, am wondering if it will be bright enough in ambient light? will the insane 10k contrast ratio make up for less lumens?

demoed this optoma hd65, and have to say it was really nice for only 500 quid, although wasnt that crisp and colors were dull, but again for casual viewing at 10ft this is great... http://www.microwarehouse.co.uk/cata...utm_medium=pcc

im willing to splash out the extra cash for brighter and more crisp, just am a little worried about dead pixels. i was told they cant be fixed and arent under warranty...
so, are there any DLPs that have a really good contrast ratio for under 900 quid?

as always THANKS for any info guys, you guys are great help!

[gazbarber]

See this thread as it covers pretty much all your issues which of these 2 ? .

On the dead pixel front its pretty unheard of in projectors to get a dead pixel, its more likely on LCD's but its so uncommon in general I wouldn't even consider it a problem.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Howie

Are dead pixels really frequent and a serious issue if I go LCD?
I demoed a DLP and a LCD and I have to say the LCD looked much crisper and more like HDTV!

Are there any DLP's with a 7000+ contrast ratio, Lumens around 2000 for under 900 quid?

Im now torn between these 2 if I go LCD?

Panasonic AX200 - https://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/pro...PT-AX200E.html - saw a demo, and it looked nice in ambient light, almost like HDTV!
btw is there a difference between the 200 and 200E? Cant seem to find any info on this...

Sanyo PLV-Z5 -
http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/proj...yo_PLV-Z5.html - incredilbe contrast, but low lumens.. havent seen it demoed, am wondering if it will be bright enough in ambient light? will the insane 10k contrast ratio make up for less lumens?

demoed this optoma hd65, and have to say it was really nice for only 500 quid, although wasnt that crisp and colors were dull, but again for casual viewing at 10ft this is great... http://www.microwarehouse.co.uk/cata...utm_medium=pcc

im willing to splash out the extra cash for brighter and more crisp, just am a little worried about dead pixels. i was told they cant be fixed and arent under warranty...
so, are there any DLPs that have a really good contrast ratio for under 900 quid?

as always THANKS for any info guys, you guys are great help!

Be careful with spec sheet contrast ratios and output claims. Many PJ's claim high numbers but employ a device called a dynamic iris (DI) to achieve it. Whilst this can help improve the black level resulting in the 10000:1 claim etc it cannot overcome the native contrast of the PJ. There can also be some side effects. Also the lumens quoted is usually uncalibrated and in the PJ's highest possible brightness mode. The result is usually the PJ will not achieve this and good contrast with accurate colours at the same time.

There are different types of contrast i.e full field (this is what is normally shown on the spec sheet i.e 10000:1) and simultaneous. Full field is just the measured difference between the brightest white and darkest black the PJ can achieve and this is contrast measure that can be improved using a DI. Simultaneous is measured using a mixture of black and white in the image at the same time. This is more limited by the navtive contrast of the technology. In general DLP tends to have higher native and simultaneous contrast compared to LCD but it varies by product.

AVI

[Howie]

so the sanyo really doesnt do 10k contrast ratio?
are there any DLPs that are as crisp and sharp and colorful as an LCD like the panny?
you could really tell the difference in the LCD panny...

and so the plot thickens... lol too many choices -
this epson seems nice too, and has 10k ratio, is this not native?
http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/proj...EMP-TW680.html

CHEERS!

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Howie

so the sanyo really doesnt do 10k contrast ratio?
are there any DLPs that are as crisp and sharp and colorful as an LCD like the panny?
you could really tell the difference in the LCD panny...

and so the plot thickens... lol too many choices -
this epson seems nice too, and has 10k ratio, is this not native?
http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/proj...EMP-TW680.html

CHEERS!

I would put money on that fact that at max light output you will not achieve anywhere close to 10K:1. No LCD PJ that I know has a native contrast close to 10K:1. AFAIK average LCD native full field is in region of 1.5-2.5k:1.

I'm not sure what you've seen at demo but generally DLP produces a sharper image to LCD. There are standards for colour but without knowing how the PJ was setup it's difficult to comment on what you mean by "colourful". It may mean that one PJ was over saturated compared to the correct standard. If you prefer this it may be possible to configure the other PJ to the same.

AVI

[Howie]

hmmm well from what I saw, the DLP was much softer than the LCD.
of course the panny ax-200 LCD was more expensive, had a 6000:1 ratio and more lumens that the HD65....
but it looked sharper and when I say colorful, I mean vibrant, and more like an HDTV, even with ambient light, whereas the HD65 looked kinda washed out...even though it was in almost complete darkness.
now could that of been from the throw range?
the hd65 was 15ft from a wall, and the panny was only 10....

ive read everywhere that LCDs are crisper and you can see pixels, so Im not sure why youre saying DLPs are better? Is it because the DLP was cheaper?
I guess ill try to see a 800 quid DLP and compare to the LCD then...

thanks!

[Howie]

Originally Posted by Howie

this epson seems nice too, and has 10k ratio, is this not native?
http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/proj...EMP-TW680.html

CHEERS!

i retract that after reading reviews that the colors werent vibrant on the epson... anyone care to tell me different?

[Gary Lightfoot]

I think AVI has pretty much covered things, but without seeing the demo it does make me wonder how things were set up. DLPs are generally sharper and when you say vibrant what you may be seeing is an oversaturated PJ compared to one with more accurate colours (LCDs and similar technologies can often have oversaturated primaries way outside of the standard colour gamut). Of course the projectors may have just been set up out of the box and if the brightness and contrast were not set correctly it can make quite a difference to the image.

I've seen professional set ups look very disappointing (Sony at the What Hi Fi show for example) so it's not unusuall by any means.

A dynamic iris uses a projectors native contrast capability by moving it up and down within the claimed range like lift. With a dark scene the iris shuts down (and boosts the video signal/gamma to make the bright parts brighter) so the 2500:1 is being used at the darker end, and with a bright scene the iris will open up and use the 2500:1 at the top end. When they measure the overall contrast, they will measure an all white image with the iris open, and an all dark image with the iris closed. That's how the get the bigger number. It also doesn't tell you how well the iris functions. On some machines it's slow and very visible in operation, and not really something that you want to see happening. On others like the Sony's it's pretty much transparent in operation and doesn't detract from the viewing experience at all. I've seen a Sanyo and an Optoma with dynamic irises and I wouldn't use them because their operation was poor. I measured the Sanyo at over 10,000:1 dynamic contrast but much preferred a lower native DLP which had much better blacks an no distracting dimming/brightening going on.

With lumens, as AVI said they're usually derived from an uncalibrated machine with settings maxed out. When set for video it's not unusual for the lumens (and contrast) to have dropped by up to 40% by the time you get it out of the box.

Demoing is the only way to get any idea of certain machines, but it's a pity that not all demos are equal. At the end of the day that'll be all you have to go on so pick the machine that seems best to you.

Gary

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Howie

hmmm well from what I saw, the DLP was much softer than the LCD.
of course the panny ax-200 LCD was more expensive, had a 6000:1 ratio and more lumens that the HD65....
but it looked sharper and when I say colorful, I mean vibrant, and more like an HDTV, even with ambient light, whereas the HD65 looked kinda washed out...even though it was in almost complete darkness.
now could that of been from the throw range?
the hd65 was 15ft from a wall, and the panny was only 10....

ive read everywhere that LCDs are crisper and you can see pixels, so Im not sure why youre saying DLPs are better? Is it because the DLP was cheaper?
I guess ill try to see a 800 quid DLP and compare to the LCD then...

thanks!

I really can't say very much about what you witnessed at the demo. Maybe the PJ wasn't focused properly, different iris, different settings etc. Also Similarly I can't really comment on these individual PJ's and my observations are more general in terms of DLP and LCD used for home threater across the a broader price range.

At the end of the day go with what looks best to you.

AVI

[Howie]

thanks again guys,

in regards to the dlp looking washed out:
behind me was a nice HDTV, crisp, colorful, nice...
when i looked back at the dlp on the wall 12 feet away, the colors were much more washed out, and the image was no where near as crisp.
now of course i know the TV was 1080 and the DLP was 720, so really only the washed out colors were the issue.

the next day, only seeing a LCD, shown at about 10ft away, yet in much more ambient light, the image was crisper, sharper, and the colors burst very much like the HDTV....

again i take it, this is because its LCD and has the 10k contrast ratio, but I keep gettin so many mixed signals from everyones posts, its really hard to know whats what!
some say contrast ratio doesnt matter, some say lumens dont matter... but from what I understand so far,
lumes DOES matter, because the farther back the throw range, the less light, and more washed out it will look, correct?
so will contrast do NOTHING if the lumens isnt strong enough to get to the wall? would MORE lumens and less contrast be better in the end?
again i keep reading that DLP is softer than LCD just because its not pixelated like LCD.
Also are there any DLP models that have lens shift? I really need that as my PJ wont be centered, and it seems like only LCD models have them?

I would LOVE to be able to see a few models back to back demoed and just make the right choice isntead of all these specs, but again, no where in central london is a real showroom that will let me see anything within reasonable (after 5pm or saturdays) hours for a working man.

[gazbarber]

What where th conditions of the demo, was it in a totaly dark room or just onto a wall in a showroom?

[pjclark1]

DLP beats the pants off LCD on almost every front (I have a LCD pj)

DLP is usually sharper
DLP is usually brighter
DLP doesn't have stripes
DLP doesn't have dust blobs
DLP has far better blacks

IMHO the only reason to buy a LCD is if you suffer from rainbows, or if you find one at an incredible bargain price (like I did). The HC-65 beats the pants of most PJs that are almost twice the price but misses out on lens shift and zoom features (£485 vs £795).

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Howie

again i take it, this is because its LCD and has the 10k contrast ratio, but I keep gettin so many mixed signals from everyones posts, its really hard to know whats what!
some say contrast ratio doesnt matter, some say lumens dont matter... but from what I understand so far,
lumes DOES matter, because the farther back the throw range, the less light, and more washed out it will look, correct?
so will contrast do NOTHING if the lumens isnt strong enough to get to the wall? would MORE lumens and less contrast be better in the end?
again i keep reading that DLP is softer than LCD just because its not pixelated like LCD.
Also are there any DLP models that have lens shift? I really need that as my PJ wont be centered, and it seems like only LCD models have them?

Those things do matter but the real important thing is knowing how and what they are when optimised for the best image rather than just a number on a spec sheet. As a example a £20k+ Sim2 C3x 1080 produces around 900-1000 lumens in best contrast mode and that is enough to light up a pretty big screen. It's the calibrated lumens in best contrast mode that are important and that may be very different to number on the spec sheet.

The viewing environment is critical to get the best image from a PJ irrespective of the tech it uses. Also the screen material can make a significant difference. Was the screen type/material the same on the demos you had ? A high contrast gray material will make colours look more vivid and lower the perceived black level. This can help with a PJ that has a poor contrast ratio but lots of light output.

There are DLP's with vertical lens shift but at this price level an LCD PJ is generally going to give you greater flexibility for installation i.e. zoom range, lens shift. However, this flexibility has a cost in that when you use those features they can degrade the image. This is more critical with three chip products because it can exaggerate an effect called mis-converegence i.e. red, green and blue light doesn't line up properly when when displaying white. This can make parts of the image look soft or introduce a colour tint to images. In addition LCD suffers from a phenomenon known as shading. Again this can affect the uniformity of the image across the screen.

If you think the LCD looked better and fits your install needs and budget then that sounds like the best option for you.

AVI

[Howie]

Originally Posted by gazbarber

What where th conditions of the demo, was it in a totaly dark room or just onto a wall in a showroom?

the hd65 was both in a dark room and with the lights on, from about 12 feet or so away onto the walls, and was nice but washed out, although a little nicer when dark.

the panny was in a bright room on the walls, yet looked much better, although was only about 10 feet....

[Howie]

Originally Posted by Avi

Was the screen type/material the same on the demos you had ?

There are DLP's with vertical lens shift but at this price level an LCD PJ is generally going to give you greater flexibility for installation i.e. zoom range, lens shift. However, this flexibility has a cost in that when you use those features they can degrade the image. This is more critical with three chip products ....

it was on walls, white or greyish white...

hmm i need horizontal shift, and isnt lens better than digital keystone?
is the panny a 3 chip? are there any single chip LCDs under 1000 quid that are bright and good color?

well, if there are DLPs with horizontal lens shift (or if digital is ok wihtout too much artifacts) and they are better than lcd as you guys say, id love to find one under 1k with nice lumens and contrast for my ambient room...
the more i read and hear you guys, sounds like LCD isnt the way to go, dead pixels, rgb shifts, plus the panny is quite large, not really portable...

ungh this really really is doing my head in, too many models, too many choices.... is there a happy medium?


any obscure brand i havent looked at?

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Howie

it was on walls, white or greyish white...

hmm i need horizontal shift, and isnt lens better than digital keystone?
is the panny a 3 chip? are there any single chip LCDs under 1000 quid that are bright and good color?

well, if there are DLPs with horizontal lens shift (or if digital is ok wihtout too much artifacts) and they are better than lcd as you guys say, id love to find one under 1k with nice lumens and contrast for my ambient room...
the more i read and hear you guys, sounds like LCD isnt the way to go, dead pixels, rgb shifts, plus the panny is quite large, not really portable...

ungh this really really is doing my head in, too many models, too many choices.... is there a happy medium?

any obscure brand i havent looked at?

A proper screen is better than a wall. Also having a black borders around the image improves the perception of contrast and covers light spill.

I'm not aware of any DLP's at this level with horizonal lens shift. Optical lens shift is better than digitial shift. LCD's are three panel design.

I've read good things about some of the sub £1k Sharp DLP PJ's but if need horizonal shift then DLP will be a problem.

AVI

[gazbarber]

It sounds like the panasonic is the one for you.
Personaly i think it was a poor demo from what your describing, just look at the pictures in the HD65 thread to see what it can actualy do.
But you've compared the two and your found the panny better, thats the one you should get as thats the one you like, and if the lens shift is a requirement then fair enough go for it