[lip sync]

Problems with DLP projector.

I have a Infocus IN82 projector, i thought that this should deliver the goods.

however, when watching a number of films from a numer os sources, i notice that there is a red/blue/green haze. this can be seen when i blink, or look at one side of the screen then the other (looking at a conversation taking place between 2 people, on on the left one on the right) it is very off putting.

it is not always present, and depends on what is on the screen, ie contrast between lights and bull background is bad.

i have even gone out and got some contact lenses as i thought that this may be down to glare on my glasses! this makes no differance.

i now spend my time when watching the filem moving my head from side to see what scence make it worse.

my kit:

denon 3910 dvd (i think)
denon 4306 Amp
Toshiba hd 35 HDDVD
qed basic HDMI cables from players to amp (0.5m)
Chord company silver HDMI to Projector (6m)
Infocus IN82

any ideas, help.

i was hoping that this would go after a run in period, i am on 40hrs ish at the moment

[hornydragon]

THis is known as the rainow effect you either see it you dont, it can be nminised by calibration but is one reason i would never own a DLP, The Sanyo Z2000 Panny AE2000 Epson TW2000 JVC HD1 are alternatives (lots have 2000 in the name dont they!)

[KpjComp]

As hornydragon has pointed out it the RBE.

One thing I would say, if you have to move your head or your eyes a big distance from left to right while watching a movie, I'd say your projecting a too large an image, it would do my head in, either eye strain or neck ache..

[shogun]

Originally Posted by lip sync

Problems with DLP projector.

I have a Infocus IN82 projector, i thought that this should deliver the goods.

however, when watching a number of films from a numer os sources, i notice that there is a red/blue/green haze. this can be seen when i blink, or look at one side of the screen then the other (looking at a conversation taking place between 2 people, on on the left one on the right) it is very off putting.

it is not always present, and depends on what is on the screen, ie contrast between lights and bull background is bad.

i have even gone out and got some contact lenses as i thought that this may be down to glare on my glasses! this makes no differance.

i now spend my time when watching the filem moving my head from side to see what scence make it worse.

my kit:

denon 3910 dvd (i think)
denon 4306 Amp
Toshiba hd 35 HDDVD
qed basic HDMI cables from players to amp (0.5m)
Chord company silver HDMI to Projector (6m)
Infocus IN82

any ideas, help.

i was hoping that this would go after a run in period, i am on 40hrs ish at the moment

Sounds like that you are suffering the RBE Rainbow effect that some people are susceptible from DLP type projectors.

Is the IN82 your first DLP projector owned ?

[Avi]

Originally Posted by lip sync

Problems with DLP projector.

I have a Infocus IN82 projector, i thought that this should deliver the goods.

however, when watching a number of films from a numer os sources, i notice that there is a red/blue/green haze. this can be seen when i blink, or look at one side of the screen then the other (looking at a conversation taking place between 2 people, on on the left one on the right) it is very off putting.

it is not always present, and depends on what is on the screen, ie contrast between lights and bull background is bad.

i have even gone out and got some contact lenses as i thought that this may be down to glare on my glasses! this makes no differance.

i now spend my time when watching the filem moving my head from side to see what scence make it worse.

my kit:

denon 3910 dvd (i think)
denon 4306 Amp
Toshiba hd 35 HDDVD
qed basic HDMI cables from players to amp (0.5m)
Chord company silver HDMI to Projector (6m)
Infocus IN82

any ideas, help.

i was hoping that this would go after a run in period, i am on 40hrs ish at the moment

Does it look like this ?

http://www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html

If so the phenomemon you are observing is colour separation AKA RBE or rainbows. Some people are more sensitive to this and it's more pronounced on PJ's with slower colour wheels or higher lumens output.

I notice it on some mono chip DLP's but not on others I don't believe there is a cure.

AVI

[IAN P]

I remember getting a demo of a dlp projector,Optoma i think,using the Fifth Element as the demo,i tell you what,after 5 minutes i had a headache from hell.I clearly remember the multi coloured flashing around objects.
In the end i had to get a lcd,AX100,so unless dlp technology changes,im stuck with lcd(no bad thing mind).But it limits the choice somewhat.

[IAN P]

http://www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html

Thats a perfect example of what i was seeing.Bloody annoying in that test as well

[Gary Lightfoot]

Some people do get used to it after a while and for those it can disappear. After 40 hours I would have thought that if it was going to diminish it would have started by now though.

If your screen size is too small and/or the image is too bright, it will enhance it more. If you can project a bigger image onto a white wall or even just overscan your current screen you may find it reduces the effect. At least then you'll know if it can be alleviated for you. The only cure would be to go for a non DLP projector like the JVC HD1 which is quite a popular choice but demo before you buy. I take it you didn't demo the Infocus before you bought it?

Gary

[A Legal Beagle]

Originally Posted by Avi

Does it look like this ?

http://www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html

If so the phenomemon you are observing is colour separation AKA RBE or rainbows. Some people are more sensitive to this and it's more pronounced on PJ's with slower colour wheels or higher lumens output.

I notice it on some mono chip DLP's but not on others I don't believe there is a cure.

AVI

I opened the link showing the supposed RBE, and i could see the effect on the top rainbow word and not the bottom, does this mean i will be effected by the RBE? is it a test to see if you are effected or is it just an illustration as to what RBE looks like?

Iam thinking of buying the HD65 but not if iam effected by the RBE!

[Gary Lightfoot]

It's a simulation to show what it can look like, it's not generated the same way as DLP seperation artefacts are so I would demo the pj before buying it just to be sure.

Gary

[lip sync]

I had a look at a in81 and did not notice this effect. it was in a different surrounding/screen.

one thing to mention is that the gain on the screen i have is 1.3 a beamax 74.4 inch with black surround.

i have only noticed it since i have started playing with iris settings britness etc.

so i take it it is my eyes in my head that are the problem not the projector.

do i have a leg to stand on and ask for a replecement projector to see if the unit performes differently?

and what settings should i pay attention to/limit to lessent the effect.

does my 1.3 screen gain make things worst?

i feel that i may have wasted 3k on a projecton. i am not best happy at the moment.

[KpjComp]

Originally Posted by lip sync

one thing to mention is that the gain on the screen i have is 1.3 a beamax 74.4 inch with black surround.

74" inch with 1300 lumens, I'd say your going to bright with this PJ. And then on top of this using a screen with 1.3 gain.

Try projecting the image just onto the wall, does the RBE start to disappear. I think you might be better with a High contrast screen, with 0.8 gain. An advantage also is you'll be able to have more ambient light and better blacks.

[shogun]

Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot

Some people do get used to it after a while and for those it can disappear. After 40 hours I would have thought that if it was going to diminish it would have started by now though.

If your screen size is too small and/or the image is too bright, it will enhance it more. If you can project a bigger image onto a white wall or even just overscan your current screen you may find it reduces the effect. At least then you'll know if it can be alleviated for you. The only cure would be to go for a non DLP projector like the JVC HD1 which is quite a popular choice but demo before you buy. I take it you didn't demo the Infocus before you bought it?

Gary

Lip sync,

I would listen to Gary,s advice,this guy knows his stuff about image calibration for projectors etc.

He always gives good accurate honest sound advise on these forums.

If you have got a plain wall in the house you could try projecting the image onto has a test to see if your Beamax 1.3 gain screen is contributing to the RBE you are suffering from.

Especially when you mentioned that when you had the demo of the IN81 that you did not notice RBE.

I would have thought that the IN82 would have the same speed DLP colour wheel and similar spec to the IN81.

Could you phone the dealer you had the demo with to inquire what type of screen and gain they was using during your demo with the IN81.

When i had my first DLP projector i had originally had no screen and was viewing on a plain white wall,which i suffered from RBE and bad headaches.

After i painted the wall to a light colour of Grey the RBE totally disappeared.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Waoolis

I opened the link showing the supposed RBE, and i could see the effect on the top rainbow word and not the bottom, does this mean i will be effected by the RBE? is it a test to see if you are effected or is it just an illustration as to what RBE looks like?

Iam thinking of buying the HD65 but not if iam effected by the RBE!

Gary is correct that the link is only a simultation and the RBE effect should be visible to eveyone even those not sensitive on the top word. Not all mono chip DLP's are the same so it is best to see a projector first hand before you buy. I've had issue with some DLP's in the past but they are not a problem for me with my current PJ.

AVI

[Gary Lightfoot]

Lipsync,

What you can do that may work is add an ND2 filter onto the lens. It will reduce the image brightness by half and may reduce or even eliminate the rainbows for you. Just to be sure, try putting some sunglasses or similar in front of the lens while showing a scene that you know shows rainbows. It won't necessarily make your projector look cool, (and it's not quite the same as an ND filter but it will save you further outlay), but the reduction in light output may give you an idea if the ND filter is going to work for you or not. If it works spending a little more money on a filter may be more cost effective than having to try and sell on the pj. After 40 hours I don't think many places will be willing to refund your money, though you've nothing to lose by trying.

If you can go back and find what you did that started it off, you may be able to get back to not seeing them again. If you have the iris open more that may be making it brighter and causing you to see RBE. experiment and see what results you get. You may find shutting the iris down and making the image dimmer is all you need to do. While you're at it, try calibrating the contrast and brightness using a test disk or THX Optomiser from Star Wars DVD. Lets hope a more contrasty image isn't the cause.

Gary

[lip sync]

what is the best way forward. i spoke to the supplier of the PJ before selecting the screen, i was going for a 0.8 gain, but i was advised against it, so i went with there advise on the 1.3.

the grounds for this were that the white would not be as white! and all i could think of it that stormtroopers would be a off white not pure white, so i went with the 1.3

also i could not find anywhere with the in82 on display and the in81 was the closest.

without spending cash on a new screen, or painting a wall in the house a light colour i am strugeling for the best solution. i am going to try turning down the brightness and also switching from low power to high, this may make things worse? also look at ambiant lighting to lessen the affect.

i do not get headachs whilst watching, and i only seem to fick it up with bright white on dark images

should i be considering getting a different projector? maybe a lcd? i feel i have made an expensive mistake.

[lip sync]

Gary

where would i get a ND2 filter from? and would you advise changing the screen cloth from 1.3 down to 1.1 or even 0.8.

i will try the sunglasses trick tonight.

thanks

paul

[Avi]

Originally Posted by lip sync

what is the best way forward. i spoke to the supplier of the PJ before selecting the screen, i was going for a 0.8 gain, but i was advised against it, so i went with there advise on the 1.3.

the grounds for this were that the white would not be as white! and all i could think of it that stormtroopers would be a off white not pure white, so i went with the 1.3

also i could not find anywhere with the in82 on display and the in81 was the closest.

without spending cash on a new screen, or painting a wall in the house a light colour i am strugeling for the best solution. i am going to try turning down the brightness and also switching from low power to high, this may make things worse? also look at ambiant lighting to lessen the affect.

i do not get headachs whilst watching, and i only seem to fick it up with bright white on dark images

should i be considering getting a different projector? maybe a lcd? i feel i have made an expensive mistake.

Unless you have the two screen materials side by side the white on a HCG screen will look white. Some things to try -

1. Check the colour temp you are using as higher temps produce greater brighness. 6500 is standard but you can go lower if you don't mind a warmer image.
2. Check black level and contrast are set correctly
3. Does the PJ have an Eco (lower) lamp setting and are you using it ?
4. Consider an ND filter to reduce brightness
5. Wait for the lamp to age as output typcially drops by 25-35% pretty quick

AVI

[Gary Lightfoot]

Jessops sell them, and if you go that route, try to get the Hoya HNC ND2 because adding glass in front of the lens can add reflections and cause a loss of contrast in scenes with bright and dark content. The Hoya range tend to have a minimal effect so I always use their filters.

In your case a unity gain or less reflective screen may make a difference to your susceptibility, I would try the iris settings first as it's easier to adjust what you already have, and then the ND filter after you've tried sunglasses. As the lamp dims over time, you may find the image brightness is less than you'd like so you can remove the filter or change the iris settings to get some brightness back. It's more involved changing screens or screen material. Grey screens can help with a room that has bright walls and ceilings but that's a different subject.

Gary

[KpjComp]

Originally Posted by lip sync

what is the best way forward. i spoke to the supplier of the PJ before selecting the screen, i was going for a 0.8 gain, but i was advised against it, so i went with there advise on the 1.3.

Seems strange them advising against it.

74" 1300 Lumens & 1.3 gain is going to give close to 100 foot Lamberts, And for film like viewing its recomended more like 16 foot lamberts. A 0.8 gain would still give arround 60 foot lamberts, take into account 20% bulb drop off 48 foot lamberts,.

[lip sync]

not sure what that means, but i was told that cheaper projectors need a 0.8 to enhance black levels, so a 1.3 would allow me to keep the black level due to the projector, and take the benafit of bright whites!

i should have not rushed into this, and maybe kept my 42" old plasma.

[Gary Lightfoot]

It's actually closer to 80fL (91fL in high lamp) assuming those are calibrated lumens. Although Infocus are more accurate with their numbers than some, they sometimes quote lumens at 7500k rather than D65 IIRC. As far as I know, the IF82 can do 1300 lumens or 12,000:1 CR, but not both at the same time. if he shuts the iris down he can reduce the lumen output quite a bit.

But as you rightly point out, it's hugely over the top if you're after cinema levels of image brightness. He'll actually need something like an ND4 if he wanted that level of brightness.

Gary

[lip sync]

Gary

thanks again for the help

i will let you know how i get on

paul

[Gary Lightfoot]

Hi Paul,

Originally Posted by lip sync

not sure what that means, but i was told that cheaper projectors need a 0.8 to enhance black levels, so a 1.3 would allow me to keep the black level due to the projector, and take the benafit of bright whites!

i should have not rushed into this, and maybe kept my 42" old plasma.

Foot lamberts are a measure of screen reflectance. Cinemas have around 12 or less, so for a cinematic look you should aim for roughly the same. If you want a plasma look, then aim for around 36fL. You just divide the screen area in feet into the lumens of the pj, then multiply by the gain.

Grey screens to enhance black levels was really for early LCDs, but nowdays grey screens are used more for rooms with ambient light (they always were, it's only when low contrast digitals came onto the scene that a new market was found for them). If you had a white screen and a grey screen of similar gain next to each other in the same room with lights on, you will have a more watchable picture with the grey screen as the light will wash out the dark area detail on the white screen more.

[nicktrex]

Ok, not trying to take over this thread or anything but, im going to order an Optoma HD65 this week (depending on Dixons stock) and i can see the rainbow effect in the test (http://www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html) but it doesnt seem to annoy me or effect me, but i can see it if i move my eyes. WIll this become more apparent if i have an Optoma HD65?

[Gilbers]

It's not a test. It's just an example of what RBE looks like to those who are affected. The only way to tell if you are susceptible would be to demo the projector first.

[nicktrex]

Well, to be honest, if its mainly shown during the credits of films, then i'll be fine. My dad had a DLP projector at work and i never noticed it on there. Well, if i see it and it causes me problems surely i could just replace the projector.

[Gilbers]

Because of the limited life of the bulb many retailers are reluctant to accept returns on a pj unless it is faulty. I'd check with Dixons first if you are hoping to be able to return it. RBE can be a funny thing and just because you don't see it on one dlp model that doesn't necessarily mean you won't see it on another. However, the number of people who find it a real problem isn't huge so you could chance it.

[nicktrex]

I think its worth chancing it.

[Zag]

Bargain hunters get ready.

Another HD65 coming to the classifields soon..

Go for a demo it could save you a lot of hassle.

There may even be another DLP owning member living local to you that is more that happy for you to swing on in.