Pj Not 480P - Worth Getting PS Player

[Goof]

I have an Epson 700C Pj which I am very happy with but looking to improve on picture quality as sometimes there is blurring and jaggies from my interlaced player (Pioneer 444).

I was planning to get the limit 9900SE Prog Scan player this week and hook up to my Pj with VGA-RCA leads (it doesn't have component either ) but on seeing the PJ's specs here and seeing that it is not 480P compatible, will I still get any benefits from a PS player?

TIA

[MartinCo]

posted here to save muddying the other threads.

how are you connecting currently to the pj? svideo or composite?

I'm not sure if the VGA/BNC style component leads will work... if the projector doesn't do 480p even by the VGA sockets.

have you not considered testing something like the Pro-V first?

you can get one for approx £100 and this would convert everything to VGA (equiv of prog scan) including your sat/cable, vcr and dvd player.

worth considering anyway as an alternative approach.

[Goof]

Thanks for the reply Martin

I don't actually have the limit yet, atm I'm using S-video with my Pioneer 444K (not true progressive).

I've already order the VGA-BNC leads from the US and they're on the way. I've ordered some BNC-RCA adapters with them and someone else on these forums said he did the same thing and they work great...can't see why it wouldn't work, I'll just put adapters on the RGB leads and leave the horiz and vert sync. leads out. It was my intention to use these leads as component to VGA when/if I get the Limit.

As for the ProV, I had read a couple of things about this but wasn't sure if the results were as good, are they? ...and tbh, the last thing I need is more equipment with more plugs and leads :D

Will consider the ProV but am thinking I'd maybe be better selling my Pj and putting the extra £100 towards a new one...

Edit: done some quick reading on the Prov, whilst I think it may improve the picture slightly I doubt it'd be worth the bother for such minimal improvements (given that my Pj will be the limiting factor). Think I'll just start looking around again.

Would still like to hear otherwise about my leads if you have any reason to doubt them tho...

[MartinCo]

I wondered if the people using the VGA leads have a projector that actually supports this method of input though (component/ progscan).

did the person who was using them have your exact projector?

since the Epson supports so little or is more a data projector, its not 100% guaranteed?

getting a ProV would of course, allow you to keep the Pioneer 444, and at £100 is a cheap upgrade.

it would also upgrade everything else to progscan including sky, vcr or whatever you have.

the results with the ProV were actually pretty good, not as good as HTPC standard but certainly reasonable... have a search..a few people are using this method... ask or PM them nicely.

if you're thinking of getting another projector anyway, then why even bother with the upgrade for now.. wait!

[Goof]

Just beat me after my edit there Martin

The person didn't have my projector but they did confirm they were using PS (AFA he Knew) and there was no degredation he knew of.

Edit: Thread's here but he used VGA-BNC-VGA.

That said, I couldn't be sure so I'll give the leads a try and, if not, just sell them on. For now I'll just start looking for a new Pj and none of this will matter!

Any PJ with a VGA input should be capable of displaying 640x480 at 60Hz Non-Interlaced. It's one of the most basic VGA modes(the other being 60Hz Interlaced), it's in the VESA specifications. However that doesn't mean the projector will lock onto a 480P signal, since the horizontal scanning frequency is higher than the VGA one.
It's more likely to allow Progessive Scan from the VGA input than it is on any other though, if it's not specifically Prog-Scan enabled.

[Goof]

Thanks EvilMudge, I've actually tried the Pj with HCPC at 1024x768 and 75Hz non-interlaced and I'm pretty sure it accepted the signal...so then why would the specs say it's not 480P compatible?Were the settings I was running through the HCPC not higher than a 480P level anyway?

Goof,
are you sure that your projector supports component via the VGA connector? It is not a given. Your projector is a data model, and seems like it's not properly equipped for video use (eg. no component inputs, no support for a progressive component signal).

A component->VGA cable does not convert a component signal to a VGA signal: it merely connects the appropriate pins.

Therefore your projector would have to support a "component via VGA" mode in order to display the component signal via the VGA input.

Yes, a PC works well with your projector, but it does not mean that a progressive component signal will. VGA IS progressive, but progressive component is another thing entirely. In order to support progressive component, your projector would have to be equipped with the proper electronics and software.

If you feed a progressive component signal to a projector that does not support progressive scan, the picture will be unwatchable, or it may not display any picture at all. The projector will not be able to sync with the picture.

If you want to see the best possible picture quality that can be achieved by your projector, hook it up to a PC that is feeding the projector with its native resolution (1024x768).

A more user friendly solution would be to purchase an external scaler that would take a component signal and convert it to 1024x768 VGA. But as far as I know, those things are REALLY pricey.

Best Regards,
Olaiho

[MartinCo]

Originally posted by olaiho
A more user friendly solution would be to purchase an external scaler that would take a component signal and convert it to 1024x768 VGA. But as far as I know, those things are REALLY pricey.

Olaiho , sounds like you're thinking along exactly the same lines as me... you put it a bit more eloquently though.

the ProV although cheap is technically an external scaler also... it doesn't take component in, but does upscale svideo to 1024x768 res.

[Goof]

Olaiho, you're completely right, I was just assuming connecting the pins would suffice but I realise now that's not always the case...probably not the case here unfortunately

I did look at the component to VGA adapters but, as you said, they are really pricey, about the same cost as a ProV.

But as I said before, rather than doing it half-arsed and getting ok results with my current equipment and a ProV for a little bit more I can go the whole hog and get the Limit PS player and another Pj that supports HDTV etc and has component so I'll likely go that route if I can get another Pj cheap enough.

Btw, I tried HCPC as my first option but found it an absolute nightmare (even though I know my way around a PC pretty well!). I had stuttering, jerky pans and terrible tearing even forcing a refresh of 72/75Hz. The picture also seemed to be worse than my player for some reason - I'd get some sort of judder (screen would bob up and down about a cm). I was glad when I 'settled' with using my player as HCPC was causing me so much grief!

Originally posted by Goof
Btw, I tried HCPC as my first option but found it an absolute nightmare (even though I know my way around a PC pretty well!). I had stuttering, jerky pans and terrible tearing even forcing a refresh of 72/75Hz.

Ok, let me try and help you with this one! Maybe this will help some others as well.

Jerky pans and tearing are because the projector's native refresh rate is something other than 75hz. With most LCD projectors, it's actually somewhere around 60hz! When you feed the projector a 75hz image, it will adjust the 75hz signal to its native 60hz. This causes all those problems that you described. The projector should never be fed a signal with a refresh rate that differs from its native one.

* THE REFRESH RATE PROBLEM*

Does the projector manual specify what the native refresh rate of the projector is? Try and find this value. If you can't find it, let's assume itäs somewhere around 60hz. Start out with a windows default 1024x768@60hz setting. If you find it, let me know; I'll let you know how to set it up.

* VGA CALIBRATION AND SETUP *

In addition to the refresh rate, there is the issue of proper VGA calibration in the projector.

You should find a menu on the projector that has values such as "phase" or "clock". These are settings that are used to properly synchronize the analog VGA signal to the projector's digital image.

After you have found the settings, download this image: Link , and set it as your desktop background. Make sure it is tiled so it repeats itself all over your desktop.

When your projector is properly set up, there will be no interference or fuzziness in the background picture. It will appear completely stable.

Now go to the menu I described earlier. Is there a function for automatically setting up the values? Such as "Auto Setup"? Try this first. If it works properly, your desktop background image will stabilize. Voila! You have properly calibrated your VGA input.

If the automatic setup fails to stabilize the background image, you will have to try and adjust the settings manually. Just try it, eventually you will find the correct settings and will have a stable image.

* PC PROBLEM? *

Jerky pans might also be caused by your PC. You can check this by looking at some DVD's on a regular monitor. Is the picture jerky? If it is, you have a problem with your PC. Try the usual stuff: make sure DMA is enabled, make sure no other programs are running etc. It can be difficult to achieve 100% stable image with a PC. (And there are the regular usability issues with using a PC, but let's not get into that.)

Make sure your DVD player software has got "Force Weave" enabled. Otherwise, your PAL discs will have bad picture quality. This is because PAL discs do not have the necessary flags to enable Weave interlacing, and thus they default to Bob interlacing which degrades the picture.

I hope this helps you. Your projector has a nice resolution and will enable you to view PAL discs in full resolution, unlike most of the inexpensive home theatre projectors available on the market at the moment. It will also produce quite a nice image, when it is properly set up.

And I hope it's not too hard to understand what I'm saying =) I'm not a native english speaker.

Best Regards,
Olaiho

[Goof]

Wow Olaiho, that's comprehensive and your English seems perfect - I wouldn't have known unless you mentioned it!

First things first, the stutter I mentioned: I'm almost sure my DVD drive is dodgy and the reason for stutter - with my drive I was also experiencing pauses for up to 5 minutes on chapter changes that would get progrssively worse throughout the course of a film before eventually crashing. In other words, I won't be able to do much in the way of tuning until I get a new drive.

I've just checked the Pj's manual and it gives the following info:
NTSC 60Hz
PAL 50Hz
XGA 60 = 60Hz
XGA 70 = 70Hz
SXGA1_70=70Hz (and so on for the different VGA/SVGA/XGA setups).

So I'm guessing the PAL@50Hz is the relevent refresh I have to aim for?

Originally posted by Goof
So I'm guessing the PAL@50Hz is the relevent refresh I have to aim for?

No, do not feed the projector 50hz. This way you would again be doing what you shouldn't do: giving the projector a signal at a refresh rate other than the native refresh.

You should always feed your projector with the native refresh rate of the projector, regardless of the material you are watching (PAL/NTSC).

The PC will perform the necessary PAL 50->60hz conversion, with no problems whatsoever (at least not to mine eye, and I'm really, really picky), no tearing, no judder.

The manual should say something about "In order to achieve optimal image quality, use PC mode xxxxx". Try to find something like that.

I would guess that XGA 60 could be the native mode of your projector. This is the mode I suggest you try first. Does the manual say which exact settings you should use to achieve XGA 60?

Regards,
Olaiho

[Goof]

Hi Olaiho,

It doesn't mention an optimal setting, just lists the table like I did so above, so it must by 60Hz for XGA60 (and yes, I believe this is the native mode).

Will try this but, as I said, couldn't really get a good indication of progress until I get a new drive.

[Goof]

Hi Olaiho,

Ok, tried the Pj set at 60Hz and the tearing problem was completely solved

However, the problems with the drive itself still remain - for example, just tried it with T2 and it pauses for about 10 seconds during the THX screen and the Drive LED is blinking away whilst it reads.

I've also noticed I get the problem with the HDD LED blinking constantly throughout the film - I've ensured DMA is on for the HDD and the DVD drive and I've also got a minimal list of services running. I also checked the resource usage and the CPU was 35-55% which I know is too high for my system (XP1800, ti4200 and 512MB PC2100) as I've had this down to 10% when running DVD's before. I'm thinking another drive will solve this either way.

I was also wondering about what you mentioned earlier here:
"When your projector is properly set up, there will be no interference or fuzziness in the background picture. It will appear completely stable."

What do you mean by stable? There isn't any fuzziness as such though there is some 'banding' (could upload a picture) but this can largely be sorted by tweaking the brightness/contrast/gamma.

One other small thing, when I'm right next to the screen it still seems to judder a bit...my desktop icons bob up and down about half a centimetre, almost as if a heatwave is doing it. But it's not noticible from a few feet so no worries if I can't get to the bottom of this.