[u02ai]

I have been shopping around for my first projector and like the look of the panasonic AE1000. I went into my local sevenoaks and the chap there said they do not stock any LCD projectors at all! he said that it is due to the vastly superior contrast of DLP. Admittedly I have not seen many projectors up and running but have read all the media reviews and indeed forum reviews of this product- which are all excellent. I also popped in to another local home cinema retailer and was told basically the same thing. Is quite common for shops to 'lag' behind in thinking such as this?

also does anyone know where I could buy and get someone to fit a panasonic AE1000 in scotland?

[UrbanT]

It seems that many shops will only give advice on the items they sell, and not on the market in general. If the store you visited sells only DLP units, I'm not surprised they slated LCD.

From a consumer point of view, you are doing the right thing. You need to read about the pro's and con's of each technology (because both have their faults), then try and get a demo of what you are interested, and then spend your cash

[ShadowTD]

There seems to be a general market prejudice against LCD projectors, in the same way there's a bit of a prejudice against plasma's these days.

I for one could never own a DLP projector as I'm massively susceptible to rainbows, whereas screen door doesn't bother me. You pays your money...

[Liam @ Prog AV]

I'm sure the retailer was just pushing his own brands... but the other side of the coin is that he is right in his statement. Quoted figures mean nothing, LCOS and DLP get far more contrast than LCD does. And without auto adjusting gamma and dynamic IRIS and what not creating further image artefacts. Unfortunately at the single-chip end of the market you do have to contend with rainbows though.

To the OP: Joe Fernand @ TMF Solutions would be your best starting point

[martian1]

I am a dlp fan but only because i get away without a rainbow issue.My mate has a lcd sony projector and i think thats great as well if you don't bother to domo then you could make a huge mistake...ignore retailers on this issue and have a good view of both if you can.
Also dlp is not as flexible to set up as lcd ..these things all have to be researched.Room size positioning of pj etc could give you more massive problems with dlp...Oh i forgot i'm a dlp fan severnoaks will be on the phone

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Originally Posted by martian1

Also dlp is not as flexible to set up as lcd ..these things all have to be researched.Room size positioning of pj etc could give you more massive problems with dlp

This has nothing to do with the technology, only in terms of whether you get a unit with lens shift for the price of an equivalant LCD model. So what you are really saying is, LCD is cheaper. Which it is. For a reason

[stevos]

Its been a couple of years since i last looked at projectors properly but at the time (for my eyes) DLP projectors were massively better. What put me off lcd's was colour reproduction and the screendoor effect

I have yet to meet anyone who has seen my projectors and noticed any rainbow effects. However this may just be down to luck.

However as i said this was a couple of years ago, and i will be interested in seeing some of the new ones especially the likes of the JVC that has a semi hybrid system.

[Tribeless]

I'm going through all this trying to figure out my first projector purchase (either Ep TW100, Mits HC5000 or JVC HD1).

Thus, what is the 'screendoor' effect?

[stevos]

On old LCD projectors (can't talk for new ones) you could see the lcd matrix on the screen (basically a grid over the screen).

It gave the effect of looking through a australian style fly door from neighbours (hence screen door). You can see everything through the door but also see the door, if that makes sense.

This is unfortunately a problems with how LCD technology works (a grid of divided cystals). However with projectors now having much higher native resolutions this i suspect will be less of an issue (if at all).

I would buy a jvc hd1 or panny ax1000 today, if i could be sure this wouldn't be an issue. However without a demo (can't currently locate one near me) i am reluctant to spend my money as this effect really bugged me last time i looked at projectors.

[jacko5]

Originally Posted by Tribeless

I'm going through all this trying to figure out my first projector purchase (either Ep TW100, Mits HC5000 or JVC HD1).

Thus, what is the 'screendoor' effect?

The screendoor efect refers to the visibility of the pixel grids. This is a non issue with any of the 1080p LCD projectors as the pixel grids are so small that they are not visible from normal viewing distances of 1.5x screen width.

If those 3 projectors are on your short list, the JVC HD1 is the obvious choice for overall image quality, but is the most expensive. Most people would say it is well worth it.

[stevos]

I never did understand why DLP's didn't suffer from this as well, since they also work on a grid approach (a grid of mirrors instead of lcd's).

[stuartbrown21]

Originally Posted by stevos

On old LCD projectors (can't talk for new ones) you could see the lcd matrix on the screen (basically a grid over the screen).

It gave the effect of looking through a australian style fly door from neighbours (hence screen door). You can see everything through the door but also see the door, if that makes sense.

This is unfortunately a problems with how LCD technology works (a grid of divided cystals). However with projectors now having much higher native resolutions this i suspect will be less of an issue (if at all).

I would buy a jvc hd1 or panny ax1000 today, if i could be sure this wouldn't be an issue. However without a demo (can't currently locate one near me) i am reluctant to spend my money as this effect really bugged me last time i looked at projectors.

The JVC is a LCOS design which means there is zero screen door - less then any DLP. The Panasonic PT-AE1000 and PT-AX100 employ smoothscreen technology, which basically means they have less screendoor than any DLP also.


I think in any discussion of DLP vs LCD the following should be made clear. There was a time when DLP projectors were clearly superior to LCD projectors for all the usual reasons - better cloours, better blacks, less screen door. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE!!!

In recent years the improvement in LCD projectors has been immense, to the point where most would accept that neither technology is clearly better than the other. The weak areas of LCD performance (black reproduction & screen door) have improved immeasurably. Both technologies have slight advantages in certain areas of performance, but tend to be fairly evenly matched in overall performance.

Think of LCD projectors like Skodas - there will still be people after a new car that won't buy a Skoda because of what they were like ten years ago, and it won't matter a jot to them that they're now basically a Volkswagon with a different badge but with all the build quality and for five grand less.

FYI Yes I do own an LCD projector and a Skoda Fabia!!

[stevos]

The major plus points of lcd's historically was that they normally had both horizontal and vertical lens shift (dlp only normally have vertical) and tended to have a shorter throw distance, both of which were huge plus points in my books as they allowed more fexibility.

I really need to get down to pj hifi and have a look at the jvc. Its just such a long way, especially when i don't currently own a car.

To be honest, my 7205 still blows me away when i watch a good hd picture, such as sunday nights 'building britain' on bbchd.

I am the ultimate upgrader, always looking for something better and the idea of 1080p tempts me.

[stuartbrown21]

Originally Posted by stevos

The major plus points of lcd's historically was that they normally had both horizontal and vertical lens shift (dlp only normally have vertical) and tended to have a shorter throw distance, both of which were huge plus points in my books as they allowed more fexibility.

I really need to get down to pj hifi and have a look at the jvc. Its just such a long way, especially when i don't currently own a car.

To be honest, my 7205 still blows me away when i watch a good hd picture, such as sunday nights 'building britain' on bbchd.

I am the ultimate upgrader, always looking for something better and the idea of 1080p tempts me.

It sounds to me like the solution is staring you in the face - get a Skoda, then go for the demo!!

[Liam @ Prog AV]

If you sit close enough to anything you will get the screendoor effect. i.e. you will see where the pixels meet one another.

With LCD light is passed through an LCD grid and so the grid appears more solidly than with any other technology. It can be seen from viewing distance on some models. With 1080p resolution (many more and smaller pixels) you need to be closer to and/or be using a larger screen for this to appear as much. Such technologies as smoothscreen have tried to combat this, often softening the picture a little in the process. For models without such technologies, defocussing a touch is often done to try and blur the distinction.

With LCOS the light is reflected off of the LCD grid. So rather than pass through it and onto the screen with obvious blanks where the grid was, light is bounced back from the grid and through the lens, and so fills some of the space back in again before it hits the screen. Combined again with 1080p resolution it makes the screen door much harder to spot, but again it is still there.

With DLP the light is reflected using a series of micro-mirrors that raise or lower to reflect light through the colour wheel or not. DLP technology has the smallest gap between pixels and so screendoor is hardest to spot here. But again, sit close enough to a big enough screen with low enough resolution and you'll see pixel structure. Not as pronounced though.

r.e. Stuarts post - yes LCD has certainly improved. In some cases using shortcuts such as dynamic iris and/or on-the-fly gamma adjustment to appear more detailed. The LCD panels themselves have improved too for sure. But it is still quite clear when you view an LCD and a DLP where the colour and contrast advantages lie. While LCD is improving, DLP is improving too. We're now up to and beyond DC3 technology which is delivering massive on-screen contrast that no DLP or LCOS projector can compare to. Obviously with individual models there are advantages such as for the same price an LCD will tend to include lens shift and maybe more inputs. And with rooms with high ambient light issues you lose so much contrast anyway the distinction is less clear. But an LCD still will not compete with a DLP.

[stevos]

Originally Posted by stuartbrown21

It sounds to me like the solution is staring you in the face - get a Skoda, then go for the demo!!

Sounds like a plan

In all seriousness i don't need a car and so owning one would be a complete waste of money (insurance, road tax, depreciation, etc, etc). This is what i keep telling myself whilst looking at parkers used price website dreaming about buying a sporty car.

I just need to get some spare time together and get on a train.

The obvious question for me at the minute will be is 1080p worth it and how do the lcd's compare on other abilities with my current infocus.

[Fangorn]

I saw my first dlp + Lcd pjs in action a week or so ago it was a Sharp + the Panasonic ax100 playing the same source at the same time.I waited for the effect. I did get "an effect" but to me it was not as expected. It seemed to be like ntsc judder. The panasonic did not create the same effect. Was this RBE? I also saw the Hi def Panasonic PT-AE1000U in action. Loved it!

[stuartbrown21]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

If you sit close enough to anything you will get the screendoor effect. i.e. you will see where the pixels meet one another.

With LCD light is passed through an LCD grid and so the grid appears more solidly than with any other technology. It can be seen from viewing distance on some models. With 1080p resolution (many more and smaller pixels) you need to be closer to and/or be using a larger screen for this to appear as much. Such technologies as smoothscreen have tried to combat this, often softening the picture a little in the process. For models without such technologies, defocussing a touch is often done to try and blur the distinction.

With LCOS the light is reflected off of the LCD grid. So rather than pass through it and onto the screen with obvious blanks where the grid was, light is bounced back from the grid and through the lens, and so fills some of the space back in again before it hits the screen. Combined again with 1080p resolution it makes the screen door much harder to spot, but again it is still there.

With DLP the light is reflected using a series of micro-mirrors that raise or lower to reflect light through the colour wheel or not. DLP technology has the smallest gap between pixels and so screendoor is hardest to spot here. But again, sit close enough to a big enough screen with low enough resolution and you'll see pixel structure. Not as pronounced though.

r.e. Stuarts post - yes LCD has certainly improved. In some cases using shortcuts such as dynamic iris and/or on-the-fly gamma adjustment to appear more detailed. The LCD panels themselves have improved too for sure. But it is still quite clear when you view an LCD and a DLP where the colour and contrast advantages lie. While LCD is improving, DLP is improving too. We're now up to and beyond DC3 technology which is delivering massive on-screen contrast that no DLP or LCOS projector can compare to. Obviously with individual models there are advantages such as for the same price an LCD will tend to include lens shift and maybe more inputs. And with rooms with high ambient light issues you lose so much contrast anyway the distinction is less clear. But an LCD still will not compete with a DLP.

I agree in principle with the above, just two things though:

Whilst generally DLP will produce a deeper black, the JVC mentioned earlier apparently gives the deepest black of any digital projector (and without a dynamic iris).

Talking of colours - I'm pretty certain that LCD actually has an advantage in terms of colour saturation.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Producing deep blacks and high whites at the same time is the trick.

[stuartbrown21]

I'm sure the JVC does that as it has 15,000:1 contrast ratio (without dynamic iris). Nice if you can afford it!!

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Measured for full on/off contrast (not using useable setting whatsover, just achieving maximum white and then seperately minimum black) the JVC has actually been measured at over 16,000:1 !!! My Sim2 D80 is way less than half that.

But, measured for intra-scene contrast (i.e. calibrated for accurate colour, and measured with equal white and black on screen in attempt to replicated day to day use) the JVC gave 305:1. My sim2 D80 gives over 700:1. The Sharp XV20000 achieves 845:1. A standard LCD would be much lower than all these

[stuartbrown21]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

Measured for full on/off contrast (not using useable setting whatsover, just achieving maximum white and then seperately minimum black) the JVC has actually been measured at over 16,000:1 !!! My Sim2 D80 is way less than half that.

But, measured for intra-scene contrast (i.e. calibrated for accurate colour, and measured with equal white and black on screen in attempt to replicated day to day use) the JVC gave 305:1. My sim2 D80 gives over 700:1. The Sharp XV20000 achieves 845:1. A standard LCD would be much lower than all these

You're one of those people that has an answer for everything aren't you? I think I will retire gracefully from this one and head over to the films forum for a respite!!

[Liam @ Prog AV]

LOL sorry!!! You can imagine the kind of questions my clients want answered when I'm telling them that this £10,000 projector is the one they should have, but the magazines tell them a grand spent on an LCD model is probably just as good!!!

[stevos]

Lian have you played with the JVC / Panny 1000 and do you sell them?

Bias towards items you sell is normal and so it would be good to know your position.

[stuartbrown21]

Originally Posted by Fangorn

I saw my first dlp + Lcd pjs in action a week or so ago it was a Sharp + the Panasonic ax100 playing the same source at the same time.I waited for the effect. I did get "an effect" but to me it was not as expected. It seemed to be like ntsc judder. The panasonic did not create the same effect. Was this RBE? I also saw the Hi def Panasonic PT-AE1000U in action. Loved it!

I don't think so. The PT-AX100 can handle a 1080p/24 signal and display at a multiple of 24hz, if it was being fed this signal the playback would have been very smooth. Of course, not sure how the Sharp you saw would handle this signal, or even whether they were being fed this signal.

[Fangorn]

Originally Posted by stuartbrown21

I don't think so. The PT-AX100 can handle a 1080p/24 signal and display at a multiple of 24hz, if it was being fed this signal the playback would have been very smooth. Of course, not sure how the Sharp you saw would handle this signal, or even whether they were being fed this signal.

So, I didnt see RBE. Maybe I need to view more to be sure. So can you explain what that judder effect was with the DLP model. Are you saying it just wasnt set up correctly?

[stevos]

The rainbow effect (I assume you mean this when you state RBE) is where you see small rainbows hovering over the image and have nothing to do with judder.

Bluray and HDDVD have a native resolution of 1080p and give this at 24hz (equal to frames per second). A lots of players and displays can't handle 24hz and so have change the picture to a frequency (hz) they can display say 50hz or 60.

Since 24 doesn't fit perfectly into 50 it is not as simple as displaying each frame a multiple number of times, and so certain frames get shown more often than others, thus giving the effect of a judder (the camera stops paning for a fraction of a second, imagine three shots on a camera one left one centre one right, you would get a smooth pan if you showed each once in order but if you showed the centre for twice as long the pan would appear to pause on the centre, once speeded up this would appear as a judder).

This will be a problem with plasma's, crts, DLP's and LCD's, unless they support 24hz (or a multiple there of) in the case of the jvc hdi it supports 48hz.

This was a similar problem with ntsc which ran at 60hz (pal runs at 50hz which most UK displays can accept).

It was just pot luck that you saw it on a dlp and not a lcd.

I should add that i only notice this in a limited number of situations and i within a few mins of watching the film forget all about it.

[stuartbrown21]

Originally Posted by stevos

The rainbow effect (I assume you mean this when you state RBE) is where you see small rainbows hovering over the image and have nothing to do with judder.

Bluray and HDDVD have a native resolution of 1080p and give this at 24hz (equal to frames per second). A lots of players and displays can't handle 24hz and so have change the picture to a frequency (hz) they can display say 50hz or 60.

Since 24 doesn't fit perfectly into 50 it is not as simple as displaying each frame a multiple number of times, and so certain frames get shown more often than others, thus giving the effect of a judder (the camera stops paning for a fraction of a second, imagine three shots on a camera one left one centre one right, you would get a smooth pan if you showed each once in order but if you showed the centre for twice as long the pan would appear to pause on the centre, once speeded up this would appear as a judder).

This will be a problem with plasma's, crts, DLP's and LCD's, unless they support 24hz (or a multiple there of) in the case of the jvc hdi it supports 48hz.

This was a similar problem with ntsc which ran at 60hz (pal runs at 50hz which most UK displays can accept).

It was just pot luck that you saw it on a dlp and not a lcd.

I should add that i only notice this in a limited number of situations and i within a few mins of watching the film forget all about it.

Pretty accurate - though i don't think they ever try to squeeze 24 in 50. All HD-Ready displays can refresh at 60hz and this will be what it is doing. It's a good idea to check when you buy a new pj whether it can handle 24 frame material correctly - the PT-AX100 can and so now I appreciate the smooth playback of my PS3, whereas my HD-E1 shows some judder (not a big problem to be honest, but if you are buying a new display, you might as well take care of this is it is an improvement).

[stevos]

Originally Posted by stuartbrown21

Pretty accurate - though i don't think they ever try to squeeze 24 in 50. All HD-Ready displays can refresh at 60hz and this will be what it is doing. It's a good idea to check when you buy a new pj whether it can handle 24 frame material correctly - the PT-AX100 can and so now I appreciate the smooth playback of my PS3, whereas my HD-E1 shows some judder (not a big problem to be honest, but if you are buying a new display, you might as well take care of this is it is an improvement).

Totally agree, i am currently putting off buying a new tv until they release a good panel that displays 1080p at 24hz, no point getting something now that doesn't support both and need to buy again in a year or so.

[stevos]

p.s. just checked infocus's website and found the rather good news that my 7205 will accept 1080p24. Must try it out tonight.