[True-Blue]

HI,

My new PJ and Screen turned up this morning

But I've got a question, will this PJ 'upscale' signals from a dvd player ?

If it does, would I still get a better result by feeding it with an upscaled picture from a decent upscaling dvd player ?

I'm untending to feed the PJ via HDMI so I need to buy a new dvd player anyway (my old pioneer 656 has served me well!!) What I need to establish is whether to buy an upscaling player or not ?

My budget needs to be limited to around £250.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the new DVD player?

Cheers.

[matt_p]

Funny you should post this - I discovered something interesting with my TX200 last night...

I've got a Panasonic s97 - generally regarded as one of the better upscaling players in the ~£200 bracket (now discontinued though), and have had it connected to my tx200 via HDMI. Trying it at 576p, 720p and 1080i, I always got the best results from 1080i.

Here's the interesting thing though... Last night I had a bit of a rearrange, which meant connecting the s97 to the TX200 by component. This player doesn't upscale over component, so I was stuck with 576i and 576p.

*drum roll*

Feeding the tx200 576i straight from the disc produced by far and away the best picture I have ever got out of my kit! Switching between 576i and 576p on the player (i.e. switching between the player's deinterlacer and the projector's) showed a massive difference. There was grain and artifacts all over the place using the player to output a progressive picture. Using the tx200's deinterlacer/scaler created a fantastically smooth picture - on a completely different level to anything I've had before.

So, moral of the story, save your money. Don't bother with upscaling, just get a reasonably decent component player, output the interlaced signal and let your tx200 do the hard work.

[dUnKle]

Originally Posted by matt_p

Funny you should post this - I discovered something interesting with my TX200 last night...

I've got a Panasonic s97 - generally regarded as one of the better upscaling players in the ~£200 bracket (now discontinued though), and have had it connected to my tx200 via HDMI. Trying it at 576p, 720p and 1080i, I always got the best results from 1080i.

Here's the interesting thing though... Last night I had a bit of a rearrange, which meant connecting the s97 to the TX200 by component. This player doesn't upscale over component, so I was stuck with 576i and 576p.

*drum roll*

Feeding the tx200 576i straight from the disc produced by far and away the best picture I have ever got out of my kit! Switching between 576i and 576p on the player (i.e. switching between the player's deinterlacer and the projector's) showed a massive difference. There was grain and artifacts all over the place using the player to output a progressive picture. Using the tx200's deinterlacer created a fantastically smooth picture - on a completely different level to anything I've had before.

So, moral of the story, save your money. Don't bother with upscaling, just get a reasonably decent component player and let your tx200 do the hard work.

Matt

Out of interest what settings have you got your at ?

[matt_p]

Originally Posted by DuncanWardle

Out of interest what settings have you got your at ?

I'm in settings limbo at the moment! I just got a new screen yesterday, and lack of a properly light-blocked room means that I've got to change settings according to the time of day.

I'm going to have a session tonight with the Digital Video Essentials calibration DVD; I'm going to wait until it's totally dark outside, so I should hopefully have some optimum settings I can use all year round. Will post back with settings in the morning, although I might put them in a new/more applicable thread.

[hornydragon]

your projector like all fixed pixel digital displays will SCALE ALL Signals to native. Upscaling DVD players are 99% of the time a total waste of money just like HDMI!

[darkmavis]

if you want results that will knovk your socks off, buy a dedicated scaler... iscan hd or hd+ or a lumagen, or zinwell if your on a budget. the quality will blow you away

[True-Blue]

Mmm,

So I may get best results from a decent second hand 'higher end' player using 'component' with no upscaling from the DVD deck ??

And I'm really not likely to see an improvement using HDMI over component ??

[True-Blue]

Originally Posted by darkmavis

if you want results that will knovk your socks off, buy a dedicated scaler... iscan hd or hd+ or a lumagen, or zinwell if your on a budget. the quality will blow you away

I'm sure it would but i'm, trying to limit my budget and keep things simple.

[Tony Hoyle]

Originally Posted by True-Blue

Mmm,

So I may get best results from a decent second hand 'higher end' player using 'component' with no upscaling from the DVD deck ??

And I'm really not likely to see an improvement using HDMI over component ??

HDMI may or may not be an improvement.. it's certainly not going to be any worse.

Upscaling DVD players are IMO a waste of money - the scalers they use are no better than the ones in the displays.. if you want quality scaling budget for a lumagen, otherwise just connect your DVD directly.

[dUnKle]

With my PJ TX200 (and I assume its case with all of them) when I select an input it tells me what resolution it is

Is this however not the resolution I am watching ? for example if I watch Sky+ which is connected to my amp using an RGB to component adaptor and then to PJ via component will it be in exact same res as an Oppo DVD player set to 1080i ?

If so - what about XBOX 360 ? also via component to amp and on into PJ ?

A thread on this PJ on the AVS forums makes mention to 1:1 pixel mapping and an overscan setting that must be used - can anyone shed light on this ?

The stupid person in me tells me that an upscaled image "should" be better than just a bog standard progressive one

[Jammyb]

whatever you watch on your TX200, whether it be a composite feed, component, svideo, PC, HDMI etc it's ALL at 1280x720. The onboard 10bit processor scales and deinterlaces everything and does a better job at it than most things you could buy, except an expensive scaler.

I'm using an ancient Pioneer DV-737 but I'm pretty sure the component output on it is excellent.

[darkmavis]

you can get scalers cheaper than you think mate. second hand iscan hd fir about 300 lumagens a little more, theb budget ones like zinwells can be had fir 170ish :@) theres a few in the classifieds mate, oh, and i havent seen a scaler that isnt better than the inbult ones in pj's

[dUnKle]

Originally Posted by darkmavis

you can get scalers cheaper than you think mate. second hand iscan hd fir about 300 lumagens a little more, theb budget ones like zinwells can be had fir 170ish :@) theres a few in the classifieds mate, oh, and i havent seen a scaler that isnt better than the inbult ones in pj's

How does using a scaler help ? (remember im none too clever)

If I sent a 576p signal and the PJ converts to 720p then why does it not convert a signal sent into it via a scaler ?

[Ian56]

matt_p,

Got exactly the same set up as you - tx200+PanaS97 and like Duncan would be very interested in your settings after you re-calibrate yer system.

I've had my gear for awhile now and connect the S97 to the projector via a QED hdmi 3m cable and let the S97 do the upscaling to 720p which I prefer - I was always under the impression from opinions on various AVS websites that this was the best way to get the best possible picture.

So basically what you're saying is to connect the S97 via component and let the tx200 handle everything instead. Can you tell me if there is a setting in the S97 menu's I have to disable in order to make sure the tx200 is doing this and not the dvd player?

This is a fascinating topic and any further information or help would be much appreciated by myself and other tx200 users.

Ian.

[PJTX100]

The Oppo upscales well but there's not much in it. A Pioneer 575 via component does a very good job.

Upscaling DVD players are much over-rated IMHO. Much of it is marketing BS trying to ride on the back of true HiDef.

[darkmavis]

its all about how well it scales dude, dedicated scalersdo a better job of upscaling. think of it like you buy a new computer with graphics on board, and then you go ou and but a brand new graphics card. it does the same job but soooo much better. things like

# Advanced frame buffer technology
# Double scan conversion
3:2/2:2 pulldown auto detection and correction
# Brightness, Colour, Contrast, Sharpness and Tint adjustments
# Dynamic format 4:3 or 16:9 for RGB output
# 3D comb filter for composite inputs
3:2 and 2:2 pulldown detection

a scaler makes sky look awesome!!

[darkmavis]

yuo set the ouput to the pjs native res (usually 720p) so the scaler onboard the pj is bypassed. that way you get 1:1 pixel mappping. the pulldown detection on a scaler rea;;y kills on dvd pal based material.

[dUnKle]

Originally Posted by darkmavis

yuo set the ouput to the pjs native res (usually 720p) so the scaler onboard the pj is bypassed. that way you get 1:1 pixel mappping. the pulldown detection on a scaler rea;;y kills on dvd pal based material.

again - sorry for souning stupid but how is the pj onboard scaler bypassed ?

is the PJ clever enough to say "blimey thats a better signal, ill use that" or somehow do you have to turn it off

I do not wish to appear rude I am just interested - I really dont understand how on one hand we have people saying "dont bother with upscaling etc as the projector converts the signal anyway" and on the other hand we have "get a scaler it will send a great picture"

As the moment I have the majority of my sources connected to my Denon 4306 AMP - this upscaled (via hdmi only) and has hdmi connected to my 50" Sammy DLP set and then also has component out going to my TX200

I set my Oppo up yesterday (connected DVI to HDMI on PJ) but just gone back to using an old Sony NS930V (via amp to PJ) and it looks STUNNING

Watching "The Proposition" and the amount of detail is beyone belief - brilliant - but I guess thats the PJ now doing the work ?

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by Tony Hoyle

HDMI may or may not be an improvement.. it's certainly not going to be any worse.

It cetainly can be

for native 1:1 mapping the internal scaler goes "WOW that signal is perfect i dont need to do anything to it" and just lets it through untouched (not all chipsets will allow this and very very few at 50Hz)

[Tony Hoyle]

That's precisely what you *want* to happen. That's what 1:1 mapping is for - to remove the scaling.

The less processing between source and display the better... then you're simply relying on correct calibration of the display itself rather than processing the picture to hell and back before displaying.

Component will do exactly the same if fed a signal at native resolution (except it's gone digital->analogue->digital so you've lost a generation).

Basically you push the work onto the best scaler you have for the picture. If you have a lumagen it's no contest.. if not it's a matter of trial an error eg. the AE900 1080i->native gives too soft a picture for my tastes, so I use the scaler in the SkyHD box (and mostly I'm watching stuff at film cadence anyway so the deinterlace doesn't matter.. 2:2 pulldown is pretty trivial..). OTOH The SkyHD rendering of SD material is crap so I switch back to Auto for that and let the PJ do it (accepting that I haven't found a way to edit the DDC on the PJ yet so I'm not getting native 576i out of it) .

The fly in the ointment is that most TVs are 768p and you can't feed that over HDMI from any devices that I'm aware of.. so you can't avoid the scaling. For a native 720p PJ though you can get excellent results with a little work.

[darkmavis]

so my reccomendatiuon is to buy a scaler with your 250 :D)

[Tony Hoyle]

Originally Posted by DuncanWardle

is the PJ clever enough to say "blimey thats a better signal, ill use that" or somehow do you have to turn it off

No it's simply that a 720p 1280x720 signal is what it wants.. there's nothing to scale *to* because it's already at native res... so it just passes it through.

[Jammyb]

Originally Posted by darkmavis

so my reccomendatiuon is to buy a scaler with your 250 :D)

If only there was someone selling one...

[darkmavis]

theres are 3 or 4 in the classifieds at the mo. i havent mentioned i have one for sale by the way,im not offering advice to sell what i have for sale mate. id tell him to look at what type he can afford and what he wants from it first the scaler i have up may not suit his needs, he may want something like a lumagen or iscan. id like to state my opinions in this thread are not influenced by the fact i have one for sale. and i still think your 250 would be better spent on a scaler than an upscaling dvd (i own both and the scaler is definatley the better purchase imho)

[dUnKle]

Originally Posted by Tony Hoyle

No it's simply that a 720p 1280x720 signal is what it wants.. there's nothing to scale *to* because it's already at native res... so it just passes it through.

Lets see if I have this right then

XBOX 360 sends out a 1280 by 720 signal and so the PJ just accepts it, applies no scaling and is happy

The Oppo DVD player upscales an image to 1280 by 720 - the PJ again accepts this and applies no scaling of its own

The Sony DVD player on the other hand is connected via component - it sends an non-upscaled image into the PJ - the PJ detects it as 576p image (or whatever it may be) and upscaled it to 1280 by 720

Is that correct ?

I have to say that the best image I have gotten from it is from the old and trust Sony DVD player - now just to find £250 for a scaler

[Jammyb]

Originally Posted by darkmavis

theres are 3 or 4 in the classifieds at the mo. i havent mentioned i have one for sale by the way,im not offering advice to sell what i have for sale mate. id tell him to look at what type he can afford and what he wants from it first the scaler i have up may not suit his needs, he may want something like a lumagen or iscan. id like to state my opinions in this thread are not influenced by the fact i have one for sale. and i still think your 250 would be better spent on a scaler than an upscaling dvd (i own both and the scaler is definatley the better purchase imho)

I was only joking, I'll use more smilies next time

[darkmavis]

sorry mate! was just worried that you would think i was bein a bit sneaky sorry mate! havin said that my scalers still up for sale tho

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by DuncanWardle

Lets see if I have this right then

XBOX 360 sends out a 1280 by 720 signal and so the PJ just accepts it, applies no scaling and is happy

The Oppo DVD player upscales an image to 1280 by 720 - the PJ again accepts this and applies no scaling of its own

The Sony DVD player on the other hand is connected via component - it sends an non-upscaled image into the PJ - the PJ detects it as 576p image (or whatever it may be) and upscaled it to 1280 by 720

Is that correct ?

not necessarily the thing is your PJ may accept 128x720 @ 60Hz from Xbox 360 as native but still process the outut of the Oppo if its at 50Hz also to see an improvement the scaler in the Oppo would have to be better than the scaler in the PJ. Scale once with the best possible device


Note to everyone stay away from Zinwell 3000's they are pretty ropey as scalers go if you want to try a budget scaler go for a Lumagen Vision or Iscan HD these are analogue SD scalers and will give you a good insight for a few hundred quid most of which you would get back on resale

[darkmavis]

id check reveiw
of zinwell products beforeb listening to hornydragon. no offence mate. i now have a iscan hd and used to have a zinwell 300, yes, there is a quality diffrence, but its small and it is reflected in the price of the product. i think zinwells are great value imho,

[trolly]

Xbox 360 using Component. Games will be HiDef but DVD movies are limited to 576p.
Best get yourself a Xbox 360 VGA Cable since the latest dashboard upgrade the DVD movies are now upscaled via VGA! (was previously 640x480 or something as bad)